Gibbon called the art and literature of the latter days of the Roman Empire “the second childhood of human reason”.
Back in the days when European art was the greatest the world has ever seen, the wealthy and powerful Cornaro family patronized the artist Bernini because he was a great artist. Because high status people like the Cornaro family patronized great artists, great art was high status, and, circularly, the Cornaro family gained status by patronizing great art, such as The Ecstasy of Saint Teresa, which features the Cornaro family as much as a Coca Cola advertisement features coca cola.
Similarly, in Restoration England, high status people patronized science because it was high status, and it was high status because high status people patronized it, starting with King Charles the Second.
Then the government gets into funding art. But the large bureaucratic government funding organization inevitably gets captured by recipients, as Cornaro family could never be captured, as King Charles the Second could never be captured. Funds are distributed for grantsmanship, not art quality. The greatest experts in grantsmanship could draw no better than a small child.
So drawing like a small child comes to be deemed high status.
Neo reactionaries are fond of authority, but need to remember that there is lot that centralized authority cannot do, starting with operate a modern economy. Large organizations suffer from diseconomies of scale, and a severe agent/principal problem. Without aristocrats, kings are not much good.
Art is arbitrary. But perhaps not that arbitrary as Picasso/Warhol wanted it to be.
What about science? Much of what people today think it’s a science, would not qualify. It is not only the Global Warming cult. It is “the scientist are trying to prevent Ebola to spread further”. They are no scientists, they are medical doctors, nurses and cleaning ladies and some other profiles who do that currently in Africa.
Everybody is a scientist now, as everybody is an artist. Yes, you can call this a decay of science. It is masked as a democratization of it, in fact it is a decay. But your point is, that it is the same thing anyway – democracy=decay.
Indeed. But aristocrats and kings have competing interests, and ever since the Qin kings and Shang Yang, the king and a working bureaucracy have had the upper hand. Though it can regress over time, modern technology seems to give bureaucrats an edge.
[…] Source: Jim […]
“the second childhood of human reason” what a patronizing statement.
Gibbon just as Jim could not stop the urge express his hatred of God here and there.
Don’t be fooled by Jim’s delusions.
The late empire works of theology and philosophy are much greater than any statue of an idol or pagan literature.
I smell mackerel.
That’s part of it but another part is that photography makes most picture art obsolete, picture art being the lion’s share of art.
Consider the book of Kells. Pretty similar to most modern art – except that the artists could hand draw subtly and deliberately not quite straight line, while a modern artist needs a ruler – the artist had technical skill that modern artists conspicuously lack.
OK but you did not address the role of photography making most art obsolete.
Book of kels not obsolete
nope
Said the philistine.
Conquest’s third law seems to work here.
It appears your readership isn’t interested in art, Jim. You gotta talk about Jesus and Jews to get any comments.
@span,
Heh–I was just checking the thread thinking to say, this post deserves more comments.
So, is good art still being produced, but in low-status obscurity. Will people 500 years from now look back at 2014, and remember artists we’ve never heard of?
Painting and sculpture are dead simply because they are exhausted. Every conceivable combination has been done. They died the same death as classical music for the same reason — the combinations had largely been exhausted. Ditto rock music, really. It came into being with the electrification of instruments in the ’50s and perfection of multi-track recording in the ’60s. But the best combinations were exhausted by about 1975.
But long-form TV has never been better. That’s a new art form made possible by a new technology: the packaging of DVDs into bundles so viewers can binge-watch 12 hours of programming over a few days with no commercials. This advance allowed for all sorts of new ways of presenting drama. It’s today’s art. Tomorrow’s art is going to be some sub-set of virtual reality, which will grow out of video games. It’s almost guaranteed, no?
So … I don’t see a conspiracy here. I see natural technical progression.
LMAO
nope
Very erudite retorts. So you’re telling me that there are no sculptors/painters/classical composers than anybody’s heard of for the past fifty years because rich people stopped patronizing quality artists? That makes no sense. I don’t think many of the impressionists had sponsors, nor did the Hudson River School guys (though a few may have had teaching gigs). I don’t recall Led Zeppelin having rich patrons, and their tunes will be deconstructed in music theory classes 200 years from now.
I have a great book on art theory written by a painter and art professor from 1924. In it he bemoans the ascension of the modernists. Basically calls them all charlatans and hacks. Now … on that point he may be right or wrong. But he gets closer to the mark when he attributes the modernists’ rise to the sheer BOREDOM of both painters and critics at looking at the same old landscapes and boats and blushing peasant women. People got tired of that stuff. It had been done. Over and over. New things were required. Art isn’t art if it’s just copying what had been done before. By 1960 you were down to Jackson Pollock splashing paint on canvas. That was the end. After that, painting merged with fashion in Damien Hirst and ceased to be a serious art form.
Any theory of art has to account for the implications of technical progress on art forms.
There have been classical composers that anyone’s heard of for the past fifty years. Arvo Pärt, Philip Glass, and so on. I saw Rautavaara’s Incantations once.
Art goes through cycles. People get bored and start innovating with no regard to traditional criteria of quality, but the criteria existed for a reason. Eventually the innovations get assimilated back into the tradition, and the criteria reassert themselves. That’s just how it goes, and you can see it all the way back in the 14th century. Ars subtilior.
The collapse of painting had political motives: abstract expressionism was a state-backed propaganda campaign against the state-backed propaganda campaign of socialist realism. It died in the Cold War — before then, you had the Futurists. What do you do when the camera has been invented and people are bored by the same old landscapes? Boccioni.
(After Boccioni came Depero, who consciously attempted to fold art into advertising.)
Well with music there are always some nooks and crannies to be filled in. Somebody could still come along and add value in a Debussy or Chopin type style. But just like your example of a young artist doing a Roman-style fountain in a modern city, this would be something closer to decoration than art. Even Phillip Glass was well aware that music was on its last legs, as he went very minimalist for much of his career. One of his pieces called for tacking the scores up on the wall and having the musicians move around from place to place. Not exactly timeless musical values at work there. In a fantasy composer league I don’t think anyone would trade Glass for Wagner.
I will give you the argument that classic artistic values re-assert themselves — but with the caveat that they are only revived with gusto when a new element can be added. My example here will surely drive you nuts but I think it is sound: The music of the band Yes can go toe to toe with a good portion of classical music — I would say 90+ percent — in terms of both intellectual and emotional engagement. That was extremely complex work on every level. To take another example, consider the lead guitar solo in the Allman Brothers’ song Jessica. Has all the hallmarks of a classic violin solo, yet put forth in a whole new medium. If you listen to Salieri after listening to Dickie Betts, you are liable to get very bored.
The whole reason classical musicians had to write down their melodies is because they couldn’t record them. A guy like Beethoven worked out all his hooks sitting at the piano, just like Stevie Wonder. Once you could record the music — and once you could fill out the sounds you wanted with electronic instruments, that’s where all the talent went. Barriers to entry collapsed so the most musically ambitious fled classical for rock. I admit there were some artistic costs to this, but there were a lot of artistic rewards. I wouldn’t trade the Rolling Stones for some lesser known 17th-century spanish guitar composer.
On painting… yeah I just don’t agree that abstraction was a plot by the socialists. I understand that the Italians loved their futurists, but it seems pretty clear to me that painters got sick of painting trees. Plus, the destruction of WW1 ushered in a post-modern intellectual climate and some sort of artistic change was needed to reflect that. (Poorly phrased but you get the idea.)
This does not explain the lack of technical skill.
Meant “Wagner for Glass.”
There’s tons of technical skill. Eddie Van Halen was a Lizst-caliber virtuoso on guitar. Ditto Jimmy Page. Even Keith Richards deserves credit here — what the Stones created were basically tone poems, which is why they are so durable. Crosby Stills and Nash … more tone poems, great virtuosity.
Or how about the technical skill that goes into making great movies? If you put it on a scale, the collective talent needed to kick out something like The Godfather could easily match, and probably exceed, the talent needed to create a European cathedral circa 1600.
We in the west are not making Cathedrals, nor their equivalent.
Semi-retract Eddie Van Halen as an example of virtuosity. Not sure VH’s stuff will age well. Kind of schlocky. Led Zep and Yes are better examples.
Classical music was undermined to some extent by the creation of recording technology, sure.
Popular music before recording was written the same way classical music has always been written: the composer composed, the performer performed, and they weren’t necessarily the same people. Now that there’s recording, the composer and the performer are usually the same, outside pop music; and in pop music, composers associate each song with one performer. If a pop music composer writes a song for a pop singer, they write *for* the pop singer, and no one else will perform it — unless it gets covered, which happens rarely.
But it wasn’t undermined completely. Some things can only be done in classical music. Bands rarely have more than five or six members, and usually three or four. You want an orchestra, you pretty much have to write classical. You want classical instrumentation, maybe you can find a violinist or whatever, but you’ll probably have to write classical.
One loose end waiting to be mined here is the integration of the two styles. This has only been approached well by popular music — classical has tried, but I’ve yet to come across any that’s listenable. Can’t get into Glenn Branca or Rhys Chatham; don’t see anything of value there. But from the popular music end, there’s prog rock, post-rock, neoclassical metal, and Michael Gira’s bands. (Swans will age well. They built an entire American style. No Swans, no Melvins; no Melvins, no grunge; no Swans, no Cobalt; etc.)
You’re right about the new element. Pärt has tintinnabuli; Lou Harrison had the gamelan. But popular music is serving as an engine of innovation — plenty of new elements to mine. The problem is that classical music isn’t picking them up — isn’t doing much of anything. (Glenn Branca went from popular to classical.) But you see this problem even in popular music: Venetian Snares built his entire career around alternate time signatures, but you don’t see that very frequently in genres likely to have the potential to be influenced by him. (He might have gotten it from classical music — he’s familiar with it, at least. Rossz Csillag Alatt Született.)
My impression is that people with classical training who want to innovate or absorb innovations go from there (to noise?) to popular. That’s what Dan Deacon did.
Also, movie soundtracks. Can’t believe I forgot that, especially since Glass did the Mishima soundtrack.
(There have been a few instances of movie soundtrack people going into popular music. Globus, for one.)
Danny Elfman – scores movies, lead singer and songwriter for Oingo Boingo.
Yeah this is the crux of the matter right here: Why did a rock/classical merger not go farther? Why didn’t rock just keep getting better and better … ever more sophisticated and spectacular? Why did it peak out in 1975 and then just degenerate into Brittany Spears and Miley Cyrus? Several thoughts. First, I’d propose that the peak of rock sophistication came with Queen, Zeppelin, Yes, the Doors the Allmans and Steely Dan. These guys all grew up deeply enmeshed in both the blues and (in most cases) classical music. So their beings marinated in both forms for many years. When they went to create music, they had an instinctive grasp of what could be done — and what quality music WAS.
Some other factors: There were no video games, synthesizers or computers to district young people, so they practiced more. Everything was analog … you had to be GOOD at your instruments. Synthesizers came in I guess around 1980. From then on you could create something that sounded like music without having any talent. I was very conscious of this change (was in my teens at the time). Music just collapsed. It became trash almost overnight. Punk was a travesty.
I’ve always felt that Zeppelin just sort of scratched the surface of where their genre could have taken them. But here’s the thing: Combining classical and rock into something that SOUNDS good — that you actually want to listen to … something that grabs you the way rock does … is incredibly difficult. I think the talent just ceased to be there. The best people ceased to be drawn to the field. Today, really no new musicians have that intuitive feel for what classic rock is supposed to sound like because they are three generations removed from hardcore blues and country, and most never listen to any classical. Plus they don’t have the patience to master complicated musical forms. And their ears have been destroyed by computerized drums and synth-ed baselines.
Somebody made the argument not long ago that human capacity maxed out in the 1970s with the Apollo program. You could argue both sides of that but I instantly thought of music in that context. The sheer intellectual firepower of Jimmy Page at his peak … Sometimes it seems like it’s just gone.
Just checked out Boccioni. Good stuff! I could absolutely see having some of those paintings around the house. I see your point as to how he may have moved a step beyond the impressionists and early abstractionists.
Consider sculpture.
Pretty sure that not all that can be said has been said.
But what would a new sculptural form even look like? The Greeks perfected the sculpting of humans out of marble 2500 years ago. Rome’s Trevi Fountain was about as big, dramatic and spectacular a realist project as you can get and that was done in 1762. There is more post-modern sculpture out there than you can shake a stick at. What’s left to do?
For a truly living art form, you can give an elevator pitch of where that form could go from here. (With virtual reality it’s quite easy.) But with sculpture, I just don’t know what you would say.
Let’s suppose some ambitious young dude decides to devote his life to sculpting YET ANOTHER big beautiful fountain in Rome. Okay fine. He gets it done. The media covers it. People clap. But is anyone’s life affected? Won’t people actually wonder why he spent his whole life copying what people did 250 years ago? What will people do when they go back to their hotel rooms in Rome? Probably turn on Game of Thrones or watch a movie …
Dude, just shut up.
Let’s suppose some ambitious young dude decides to devote his life to sculpting a big beautiful fountain somewhere that isn’t Rome. He gets it done. The media covers it. People clap. And then there’s beauty in a place where there wasn’t any before.
What’s left to do? That.
Architecture, urban planning, etc.: there’s a place for art as long as there are still cities being built. Brutalism has failed: just look at the Hoover Building in DC. The self-consciously innovative nonsense spewed forth by the increasingly insular and status-obsessed art world is failing. There’s plenty of abstract crap in New York, and none of it is as famous as the statue of Atlas. Does anyone outside architecture and outside the ultra-rich give a damn about Zaha Hadid? And yet plenty of people still give a damn about cathedrals and mosques.
Yeah I will give you architecture. I sort of deliberately left that off my list of dead forms. I live in northern Virginia and the arlington area is even worse than DC in terms of the putridness of the designs of the new buildings. For the most part it just comes down to money. They can slap up generic apartment buildings with paper-thin walls very cheap and as average IQS decline the pushback from the populace falls away to nothing.
On the issue of the retardation of NYC post-modern art, I agree but that really just makes my point: dead art form, has now merged into fashion. Buying a Hirst for $2 million is just status signaling, like buying a Ferrari. Morons on both sides of the deal in the modern art world now. As an aside, really good late-19th century american art by guys whose work is in many of the museums in the country is often going for low 5 figures at auction now. Possible arbitrage opportunity there.
“On the issue of the retardation of NYC post-modern art, I agree but that really just makes my point: dead art form, has now merged into fashion.”
Right. But it didn’t merge into fashion because it died; it died because it merged into fashion.
Umberto Boccioni blew open painting, and then died in the Great War. A few minor Futurists stepped up to continue his style, but it was simplified, kitschier, and eventually folded into Fascist propaganda — which was markedly better than Soviet or American propaganda, but propaganda nonetheless. (Depero was hardly an artist; if anything, he was a graphic designer. Sometimes he made things that didn’t suck — but nothing I know of that wouldn’t be out of place on a KMFDM album cover.)
Then the Fascist regime fell. After that, did anyone pick up what Boccioni started?
(Jim: comments that contain HTML don’t post — the submit comment button throws a 404 error.)
I don’t know what is causing this, and unable to immediately fix it.
I tried changing my spam filter, but that did not work.
And most of their stuff has been lost, and never replaced.
There’s lots of it being replaced in Vegas. It’s not considered art, but rather kitsch, and I think that’s the correct classification for it.
A simpler way to think about this is just to say that static art forms were displaced by active ones. If you are 16 and an ambitious artist, why be a sculptor or painter when you can make movies? It doesn’t make sense, as movies have far greater potential to move the needle in terms of our understanding of the human condition. 500 years from now people won’t look back and marvel at some currently obscure artist. They will marvel at The Godfather and The Deer Hunter and think, “Damn… what a creative explosion occurred in the 20th century.”
Movies sucked up all the talent that otherwise might have gone into older forms. If somebody wants to link to a post-1960 painter or sculptor whose work they think is superior artistically to what the best movie directors of the 70s did, i’ll be curious to see it. I don’t think it can be done.
Movies are produced for the masses. Movies that are supposedly produced for the elite are not very good.
The best art produced today is produced for Joe Sixpack. I don’t think art produced for Joe Sixpack will last the ages.
That’s a tough position to defend, Jim. Who were the great cathedrals of Europe built for if not Joe Sixpack? I can give you 10 historical examples right off the top of my head of individual artists who were famous in their day — revered by the masses (or something close). Mozart and Wagner were both rock stars. In painting, Michelangelo, Cezanne, Renoir … all rock stars. In literature, Hemingway, Camus, Zola, Kerouac … all rock stars. I think it’s a lot of the inside baseball stuff that tends to fade. Alexander Pope comes to mind. Or that guy with the bandana who wrote Infinite Jest and then killed himself. He just wasn’t that good but the college professors loved him.
I am pretty sure the great Cathedrals of Europe were not built for Joe Sixpack. Las Vegas is built for Joe Sixpack.
How about opera? Massively popular, thoroughly middlebrow in 19th century Europe. Maria Callas, Mario Lanza … total rock stars. Or how about Shakespeare. Even in his own day he was fairly popular and also considered pretty much middlebrow.
Anyway … basic point is that a high percentage of what we consider great art was popular with the masses pretty much right out of the gate.
Observe that when Shakespeare ridicules socialism with Jack Cade, ninety percent of his jokes go right over the head of today’s audiences, even though they are today far more relevant than they were in his day. He was not targeting our masses.
Well, your Shakespeare point brings up two things. Part of it is that artistic works do age. You’ve gotta update the language and motifs for each generation. That’s why there is always a place for new art works. I’m not a big fan of Shakespeare myself. The old English and his now-obscure references are tiring.
And to the extent what you’re seeing is a function of people ceasing to be repulsed by socialism, that’s probably a function of hippie doofuses taking over the education system as much as anything. Thirty years ago you couldn’t find a kid anywhere in middle america — black or white — who thought the soviet union had a good thing going. (That probably wasn’t your point but now that I’ve typed it there’s no use un-typing it …)
Jack Cade and Dick the Butcher have not aged. They have become more relevant and clearer. In particular the class war trial is rendered clearer by recent examples of punishing people on the basis of real or imaginary class membership
Not one good response to this argument but a lot of insults. This point has been obvious to me for 20 years. You guys seem very defensive …
I find myself agreeing with Kgaard to a certain extend. Good on him for persisting with his point. Many art forms have declined, but cinematography is presently at astonishing heights.
That said, the little village church in my mother’s hometown in Austria has more artistic value than anything I have ever seen that was built in my lifetime and I am 35 years old.
Children and imbeciles prefer Pixy Stix to pancetta. And?
Boy oh boy. When it comes to art, you fellas are a bunch of bloody cavemen.
Well, take a crack at it then … let’s hear your view.
[…] Why emperors cannot be traditionalists. Related: Without aristocrats, kings are not much good. […]
Here’s a good link that describes the degeneration of art and behavior based on the age of Empires. The US tracks very closely with other Empires in their degeneracy. It’s not too long. Very interesting, to me. I’m always interested in long cyclic type patterns. I believe two contradictory things. That most life, economics, etc are based of oscillating patterns but I also believe that one individual can change these patterns. Very difficult but possible. The old for the loss of a shoe, the horse was lost, which caused the loss of the knight, which lost the battle, etc…
Written by Sir John Bagot GLUBB
http://www.rexresearch.com/glubb/glubb-empire.pdf
He adjusts the facts to fit.
Ottoman empire lasted five hundred years.
He cuts the roman empire into two empires, starts one late, ends the next one early. The Roman Republic ruled an empire starting from 282BC at the latest, with the conquest of the Samnites and the Etruscans, and the Roman Empire was still collecting taxes from far flung provinces and spending them on the degenerate mob of welfare bums in the city of Rome in 410AD
So, given how he has adjusted the history of the two best known empires, I don’t trust how he handles the others.
Point taken.