The Cathedral and the Holiness Spiral

“The Cathedral” was the hacker metalepsis for centralized authority, which Moldbug appropriated to describe the rule of the most holy unofficially official state religion of progressivism.

A real life Cathedral is not run by a single CEO, but by a synod of bishops, and “The Cathedral” is the Beast with Seven Heads, several conspiracies struggling with each other for power and status, each composed of several individuals struggling with each other for status and power.

Rule by priests tends that way, because warriors prefer a clear chain of command, with a single man able to give command, while priests like to work by consensus. And consensus tends to madness.

Priests want to develop a shared story, so that people hearing the story from multiple seemingly separate sources will be more inclined to believe it, so naturally tend to develop their story by consensus. Warriors want a clear decision to deal with some external problem.

We are always ruled by priests or warriors, or some mixture of both, and when too many priests acquire too much power, they butt into the affairs of warriors and merchants, where consensus is a really bad way of making decisions.

The capacity of the Cathedral to abruptly and uniformly changed its line in a cohesive and coherent way indicates that the number of individuals is not a whole lot larger than the Dunbar number. Variations over time in its ability to act coherently and cohesively indicates that the number of influential individuals changes over time, and that the Cathedral struggles to preserve it ability to act cohesively, to act like a single being with a single will, not always successfully.

The Cathedral tends to be dominated by the most cohesive groups. Thus each group struggles for cohesion, as the Cathedral as a whole struggles for cohesion. One ever popular source of cohesion is blackmail through participation in shared crimes, and perhaps the Clinton group derived substantial cohesion from this source, but this necessarily only works for a quite small tightly knit group, which may well be at the center of a larger group. To hold a larger group together requires a shared faith, and so you derive cohesion by recruiting the most zealous believer in the faith.

To ensure loyalty and cohesion, the group, and the Cathedral as a whole, recruit the most zealous defenders of the faith.

Thus competition to join the group, and to rise within the group, results in ever more extreme demonstrations of holy faith, which is apt to result in manufacturing more ever extreme things to be holy about, in order to promote oneself and one’s faction, and cast out other factions, and competitors within one’s own faction, as insufficiently holy.

832 Responses to “The Cathedral and the Holiness Spiral”

  1. imnobody00 says:

    This is why a formal hierarchy is necessary for the priests so they can achieve power without compromising the doctrine. The Catholic church has it, the Orthodox and Oriental churches have it.

    The Protestant priests have no hierarchy as a group (some Protestant churches have this hierarchy but, since they always operate together in a given country, they have no hierarchy between them).

    This is why the holiness spirals abound in the Protestant world. Once the Protestant religion gets secularized and becomes political correctness, the set of possible priests dramatically increases and the holiness spirals get crazier and crazier.

    But the Enlightenment religion (of which political correctness is a sect) is against formal authority so a formal hierarchy is impossible to achieve.

    • Karl says:

      That protestants have a protestant church for every country is one of the few healthy things about protestants. Within each country the hierarchy is very similar to the catholic hierarchy with priests, deacons, prelates and a bishop on top.

      I don’t see how a clerical hierarchy could prevent a holiness spiral. An inquisition can do that. Hard to have an inquistition without clerical hierarchy, but easy to have a clerical hierarchy without an inquisition.

      • imnobody00 says:

        The Protestant churches worked well while they were national Protestant churches, like the Church of England or the Swedish Lutheran Church. They had a hierarchy (because they were high church) and they were the only religious authority in their countries. They were backed by the State (an inquisition is not necessary and churches keep on working after the inquisition was a joke but the support of the State is necessary)

        (Now they are not effective because they are not the religious authority in their countries: the Cathedral is. The same applies to the current Catholic church)

        It’s different in a religious free market, USA-style. Thirty thousand Protestant churches competing for people and trying to establish themselves as the one, true Church. This is a recipe for virtue signaling and holiness spirals.

        If your doctrine is flexible, like the political correctness, this gets to insane levels.

        • Oliver Cromwell says:

          The Church of England never achieved the status of “only religious authority in its country”, which is why by 1900 the British Empire was no longer pursuing its interests and eventually stopped pursuing self-preservation.

          • The Cominator says:

            To be fair the British probably would have never tolerated an overly strong state church.

            England had no heresy laws in the Middle Ages, Henry VIII had to resort to mass murder to get people to adhere to the religious party line.

            Elizabeth I did it the smart way, make the Church of England low church Calvinist (the most popular form of Protestantism) but don’t ask too many questions of people about what low church Calvinism means to them as long as they show up once a year. OTOH she punished the extreme killjoy puritans and treated catholics as the foreign agents that they were.

            James I basically continued this.

            Charles I stupidly tried to restructure the Church in a more Papist direction (very very unpopular)… this was his great mistake. He should have keep the church low church calvinist BUT he was right to discourage the puritan extemist. The Stuarts should have continued the low church calvinist policy…

            • Oliver Cromwell says:

              The Church of England made the British Empire, by having the hardest line on marriage of almost any country, which is why England went from having a population about 1/4 that of France at the end of the 100 years war to about the same in 1900.

              England should have disallowed non-conformist marriages the legal status of Anglican marriage, which would be justifiable as nonconformists supposedly rejected Anglican marriage anyway.

  2. >while priests like to work by consensus

    Interestingly, women work by consensus, too. I remember reading about that the worst part of working for female bosses is that you cannot just agree to obey the decision while reserving your different opinion. Rather, everybody must agree enthusiastically with the boss, forming a consensus. Responsibility-avoidance, mostly likely.

    • BC says:

      The very first Sumerian King who became King by overthrew the priesthood of his city state installed his daughter as high priestess, indicating that time Women were running the state religion at that time.

    • Jehu says:

      That’s probably because women are really bad at disagree and commit. That and they project, blinding them to the fact that most guys are perfectly capable of disagree and commit.

    • There’s no difference between women and “the priests”. You become a priest in the first place by being too effeminate to become a warrior. So it makes sense that groups of priests/intellectuals would end up behaving similarly to groups of women–or, in advanced civilizations, where effeminacy is rampant due to dysgenics, and where women can finally dominate over the weakened species–to groups dominated by women.

      • The Cominator says:

        “There’s no difference between women and “the priests”. You become a priest in the first place by being too effeminate to become a warrior.”

        Priests don’t have to be excessively effeminate and the main source of effeminancy in the progressive priesthood is the bluepill on women and in the catholic priesthood was mandatory celibacy. Our priesthood will have neither of those things, now obviously the average priest is not going to be as masculine as a navy seal but there is no need for them to be effeminate nancies who are anything like women and under us they will not.

        • I have never met a priest who didn’t look and act like a fag. Of course 2000 years ago they had more masculine priests, but they also had more masculine men in general because that’s what 2000 years of civilization does to a species: it feminizes it. They don’t call them christcucks for nothing, and aren’t monks in general fags? Would a man shut himself in a room his whole life long? So there go the Asian monks, in the same barrel along with all the other priestfags.

          I stand by my assertion that priests are essentially women, and I look forward to their extermination by drone army in the future along with all fags. And if the alt-retards object that you need priests to run a society, I will counter that at an advanced stage of culture you no longer need priests but Plato’s philosopher-kings, which is the same thing as Nietzsche’s Overmen. Reality becomes simply too complex past a certain point for effeminate intellectuals (which is what priests are) to handle, and you need masculine intellectuals. And that’s where the Overmen come in, with philosophy being their future religion.

          • Jan Martense says:

            @Orgy: You do realize your beloved Nietzsche was also a priest? You haven’t given any reason to distinguish priests from the broader category of intellectuals besides that they are more feminine, which you then proceed to ‘prove’ in a laughably circular fashion (“I have never met a priest who didn’t look and act like a fag” )

            And if the alt-retards object that you need priests to run a society, I will counter that at an advanced stage of culture you no longer need priests but Plato’s philosopher-kings

            Plato’s whole point is the literal opposite of your position: he explicitly wants the priests on top, warriors in the middle, and merchants on the bottom when it comes to decision-making for the state, which parallels the intellect>emotion>appetite ordering he proposes for personal decisions. Of course, the caveat here is that Plato understands priests shouldn’t try to tell warriors and merchants how to do their job, which is why he proposes strict separation between those spheres.

            We are always ruled by priests or warriors, or some mixture of both, and when too many priests acquire too much power, they butt into the affairs of warriors and merchants, where consensus is a really bad way of making decisions.

            This is a decent point but I’m still inclined to agree with Plato, as a purely warrior-led society is essentially tribalism, which makes sense because soldier-style chain-of-command is essentially restricted to Dunbar’s number (beyond which authority become compromised as it is passed to the next rank). We only see widespread cooperation beyond Dunbar’s number when authority is founded on ideas rather than personal connections. Hence, advanced civilization is predicated on a respected priesthood (as the lack of even a single counter-example in all human history pretty much proves).

            This is the reason why divine-right monarchy is so powerful and desirable: it provides the centralized command structure of a warrior in the day-to-day affairs of state, while still upholding a sense of legitimacy and ensuring pro-social/ethical behavior among the general population.

            • You are playing with words at this point. The priest is the predecessor of the philosopher, but once philosophy was invented in Greece by Thales, the priest is obsolete, and it is precisely the superior masculinity of philosophers (compared to priests, not compared to Navy SEALs), that led to the birth of philosophy in the first place, as the priest wants someone to worship while the philosopher worships himself, leading to the Overman etc.

              Now you can be pedantic again and cite effeminate philosophers like e.g. the Anlo “analytic” ones, but those are failed philosophers, they are people who tried to understand philosophy but failed, and debased it to “Enlightenment” (=Endarkenment) liberalism etc. And it is precisely their effeminacy that led to the rejection of the Overman and the return to Christian values (equality, etc.)

              There’s no point talking about Plato anymore in this context. I only namedropped it to give you guys a reference point because many of you–e.g. Jim, don’t seem to have heard of Nietzsche–but almost everyone has heard of Plato.

              If you were looking at the issues at hand and really trying to find a solution you wouldn’t be losing your way among details and pedanticism… But that is the fate of everyone who is not up to what’s required of the solution.

              • jim says:

                I have read Nietzsche. He is incoherent. With God dead, he was lost and could not find his way. Lacking God, wanted superman, but he was no superman, nor was there any superman around to worship.

                He was unable to handle women, making his manly philosophy umanly.

                He wanted a replacement for God, for an alpha male dad, he was looking for a replacement for big daddy, for the God that had died on him, for a strong father, did not find one.

                But I can tell you where to find one. Become a husband and father, rule your household firmly and well.

                Well one alpha male all by himself is kind of not very alpha. And we are detribalized, which makes us weak. So, claim backing of your authority over your household from the ultimate alpha male who created the universe. God is patriarchy write large. A man is not comfortable unless backed by higher authority, and women and children are not comfortable unless dad is backed by higher authority.

                When my kids were little, they thought that I made the world, and indeed, I had made the tiny part of the world that they experienced.

                • If the flux seems incoherent to you because in a universe of relativity all viewpoints are simultaneously valid, that is not Nietzsche being incoherent but you being insufficiently intelligent to understand relativity and its implications.

                  Nietzsche was the most coherent man in the history of the species.

                  Read again, and read better. You cannot seriously call incoherent the man who foreshadowed relativity and quantum mechanics decades before they were invented. You are not judging the books when you say such things, the books are judging you, and their judgement is that you failed.

                • jim says:

                  Nuts

                  Anyone who thinks that Nietzsche foreshadowed relativity all that is an ignorant moron who has no idea what relativity and quantum mechanics is all about, but get hot when he hears the word “relative” without understanding what it is about.

                  You find Relativity and Quantum Mechanics confusing and seemingly nonsense, so you think that confusing nonsense is high status.

                  It is not. It is a manifestation of ignorance, stupidity, and willful ignorance.

          • The Cominator says:

            “as the priest wants someone to worship while the philosopher worships himself”

            Self worship is not the basis for anything functional. One of the points of religion (without which it cannot provide cohesion) is to fulfill men’s desire to feel they are a useful part of something GREATER THAN THEMSELVES.

            • Strannik says:

              Indeed. Works even better when men KNOW that they are a useful part of something greater than themselves. Falsity fails fairly quickly.

      • Are you this stupid or 17 years old or trolling? Never heard of warrior saints? Saint George? Knights Hospitallers and Templars, who weren’t just a particularly religious kind of warriors, but they were formally monks who fought? Saint Boniface? https://orthosphere.wordpress.com/2013/06/06/the-faith-was-built-by-tough-men/ or the more Pagan stuff like Julius Caesars very first career step was becoming a high priest?

        • jim says:

          When Charles the Hammer took power, Christianity had alarmingly holiness spiraled “Peace on Earth to all men of goodwill” into the distinctly suicidal “Peace on Earth.”

          However under Charles the Hammer, we see a whole lot of Bishops, such as Saint Boniface, who were apt to carry big hammers and wear armor, and Christianity remained sane on the topic of war for near a thousand years. But in recent times, since the time of Napoleon, gone soft again.

          From Charles the Hammer to the Napoleonic wars, the Christian Church had a fair number of warrior priests, and priestly warriors like John the Third of Poland.

          • Strannik says:

            In Russian Orthodoxy, we have the Monk St. Peresvet who died at the battle of Kulikovo after killing the champion of the Golden Horde, and the Monks of the Solovetsky monastery, who fought (as Old Believers) a seven year siege against the Tsar’s troops. Later, during the Crimean War, the Monastery also fought of an attack by the British Fleet. I’m sure there are other examples.

  3. I love this analysis which is a breath of fresh air after the inane articles that talk about technology regression but you are still missing a crucial piece Jim: the dysgenic effect of civilization that allows decadent ideologies to take hold of the species and dominate as never before. The current power of “the cathedral” is due to biology, not politics or economics as Moldbug and co. think. And the only way to correct biology is by philosophy. Read orgyofthewill.net for the full analysis — no one is analyzing this stuff apart from Nietzsche in the last century and me in this one.

    • The Cominator says:

      I don’t believe in the Teddy Spaghetti’s “Gammas” being a real socio-sexual category but I’ll be damned if you don’t sound like one.

      • Nietzsche would have sounded like that to you too. It’s always the same with fags: they can only think about dick. You talk philosophy to them and they still see dick. That’s why you should be thrown off a roof, or wiped out by a drone army.

        • Mike says:

          Orgy of the Will is a fun read for a good laugh, but I could read about the same things you write on by just picking up some of Nietzsche’s books. You didn’t come up with anything that he hasn’t already said in a less autistic manner.

          • That’s because you don’t understand the new things. I would bet my life that you don’t understand the old ones either. Being unable to tell genius from autism, as your buddy above is unable to tell alpha from gamma, is what gives you both away.

            • Mike says:

              Why do you have to make an account to read some of your topics?
              http://orgyofthewill.net/discuss/viewtopic.php?t=953

              • It’s not an account, it’s a subscription. Ignore the new ones, just read the 100s of pages that are on there for free and you’ll get the gist.

                • I’ll make it easier for everyone by copy-pasting here the most relevant passage, aphorism 1000:

                  “1000. For our analysis of civilization to be complete, and therefore correct, we must trace its development along all branches of knowledge: cultural and political as well as mechanical and biological. So let’s start with the mechanical part, which I think is the easiest to grasp, especially for practical-minded people (what with most of you being from the Anglosphere, as I can tell by the site’s statistics reports and membership of my inner circle…)

                  Civilization is the cultural form of evolution, with the same goal as the biological kind: domination of the environment; power in a single word. Civilization accomplishes this in the same way as species do in the wild, by increasing the complexity of the organism, which in this case is not comprised of internal organs but of people, what is known as “human resources”. Shorn of their independence as distinct and sovereign lifeforms, these civilized people (from Latin civilis meaning “civil”, related to civis meaning “citizen” and civitas meaning “city”, i.e. city-dwellers) leave behind the ways of the wild and of their animal and prehistoric tribal ancestors and begin to form groupings of increasing scale and complexity, with each member co-operating with the rest by specializing in an ever-increasing number of tasks of ever-narrowing scope, thereby achieving efficiencies and synergies that boost the group’s power to such high levels that, to the uncivilized, their accomplishments seem nothing short of miraculous, which in a sense they are, as they bring forth artifacts and open up mindscapes that would most definitely have been impossible without this scheme of elaborate co-operation (a phenomenon which scientists call “emergence”). Very soon the civilized tower above the uncivilized to such an extent that they appear as gods to them worthy of worship, and in a real sense they are, since the gods of the uncivilized often appear, even in the latter’s religious fantasies, as weaker and less capable than the civilized.

                  But there is a price to be paid for all this newfound power of the group, and this price is the increasing weakening of the individuals that comprise it, as the history of civilization is simultaneously a history of increasing feminization, and no metaphor is more helpful to understanding this than that of the tool and workshop. As every mechanic knows, the more specialized the tool, the more useful it is for the main task for which it was designed, but the more useless for every other task. A hammer or a knife are simple, primitive tools that can therefore be used for a multitude of basic tasks, and if need be they make for fairly decent weapons too; but by the time you get to the kind of space-qualified, low-torque screwdrivers astronauts use in space station repairs or micro ligature devices neurosurgeons use to “accommodate and manipulate ligatures with maximum efficiency” you’re talking about a tool built for a single task that is absolutely fucking useless for any other conceivable task, and so fragile it will break if you look at it the wrong way in the bargain. The same exact fate awaits the hypercivilized and therefore hyperspecialized man, and is indeed already evident all around us, and has been evident to some degree or other for over 6,000 years. Our goal now is to understand the cultural, social and biological processes of how this happens; of how the strong and fearless barbarian who dominated all prehistoric cultures comes at last to be transformed to what in philosophical terminology is known as the subhuman of modern culture, a creature so weak, stupid and pathetic that even women can dominate it and become masters of it; even, in some cases, animals. Once we have understood the genealogy of this clearly no longer human creature, we will by the same token have understood what we must do to prevent it from destroying civilization (and there’s still plenty of time for that, don’t worry); what should have been done in earlier times but wasn’t done due to lacking philosophy; due to lacking that is to say an understanding of precisely what civilization is and how it functions.”

                • jim says:

                  > Our goal now is to understand the cultural, social and biological processes of how this happens; of how the strong and fearless barbarian who dominated all prehistoric cultures comes at last to be transformed to what in philosophical terminology is known as the subhuman of modern culture, a creature so weak, stupid and pathetic that even women can dominate it and become masters of i

                  You are giving us the official cathedral line – that emasculation is the result of technology and all that.

                  No it is not. I see emasculation happening right in front of me in the workplace, and it is not technology that is doing it, it is the priests of human resources department.

                  We have heard this all before from one thousand different megaphones, all attached to a single microphone, you being yet another megaphone, speaking the words of your master.

                  It is not technology. It is the officially unofficial state religion, of which we have an overly plentiful supply.

                  Nietzsche does not have the cure for emasculation, does not even understand the problem, and I do, because in actual life, in actual practice, he was emasculated and I am a man. Also, Bronze Age Faggot, though he speaks much truth, and makes a valuable contribution to the movement, is still a faggot larping at being a man.

                • Pooch says:

                  Trying to make money off of Jim’s readership. Fuck out of here, faggot.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “Trying to make money off of Jim’s readership. Fuck out of here, faggot.”

                  Actually this makes me like him better…

                  Jims readers won’t buy it… but maybe the feds will feel the need to buy accounts for 100 shills… making money exploiting the Cathedral… BASED!

                • Mr.P says:

                  Oh my goodness gracious, here we go again.

                  Jim IS Nietsche, just not quite yet in power.

                • Mike says:

                  To Nietzsche’s credit, I don’t think he claimed that he wasn’t emasculated. Considering how he never had a family and died terminally insane, I don’t see how he could. I think Nietzsche, like BAP, is brilliant in certain areas, but overall is too black-pilled to be a foundation for civilization.

                • yewotm8 says:

                  Men becoming more specialized in their profession does not imply that they become more feminine, at all. You’ll have to make that connection somewhere, because it is not self-evident. Are you also implying that a general laborer, who works many jobs in a construction site, is more masculine than an astronaut, specifically because the number of tasks he can perform is higher?

                • info says:

                  The most simple test aside from physical fitness and robustness that shows whether men are effeminate or not is if they simp to women.

                  Alongside being gamma male in a behavioral sense. How they behave towards women whether in a confident and assertive way or in a simpering way shows if they are effeminate or not.

    • Riddle me this Mr. Nietzsche.

      How is the leftist tranny academic not the Nietzschean ubermensch? He is master; he writes the rules by which society lives, people fear offending him and are ruined if they do, he has remade ancient moral laws, redefined the categories of nature itself to suit his personal will and desires. By clothing his master morality in the paper-thin garb of slave morality he has become master, has he not?

      Please, tell me why this is not the case, -without using referents external to Nietzsche-. If you have to use a system of values external to Nietzsche to reject the rule of your tranny commissars, then Nietzsche’s whole point falls apart. Otherwise you have two options:

      a) Personally refute the tranny’s rule with your own will to power, fire and sword (please livestream this)

      b) Get on your knees and suck the dick, bigot (please don’t livestream this)

      • Aldon says:

        Nietzche was a liberal just as how Marx, Locke, Rousseau etc were. He accepted enough of their premises and narrative (that men are floating atoms forced together by the chains of “civilization” be it through the state or church and thus one day they need to escape these chains). Tranny bathrooms is indeed a suitable outcome the vision for society men like Nietzche had.

        • jim says:

          > premises and narrative (that men are floating atoms forced together by the chains of “civilization” be it through the state or church and thus one day they need to escape these chains).

          The civilization of the Roman Republic was not chains. The civilization of Xenophon’s ten thousand was not chains. The civilization of Restoration England, which conquered the world and led to the scientific and industrial revolutions, was not chains.

          Clive of India was not in chains.

          A dysfunctional civilization, now that is chains, and you can see those chains in every workplace.

      • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

        As periodically documented at Steve Sailer’s blog, the middle-aged men who get sex changes often really are Nietzchean supermen, such as Bruce Jenner (3 wives 6 kids), Colonel Pritzker, and Martin Rothblatt.

        Sadistically forcing those around them to pretend the insane is normal is, for them, just another day at the office.

        • In case I wasn’t abundantly clear, I believe that tranny commissars are totally in line with Nietzsche. Which is why I’m not on board with Nietzsche. There is always a bigger daddy. No one is more alpha than GNON, and those who try to overthrow him come to a bad end.

          • Nietzschean übermenschen are best not understood as trying to overthrow gnon, but previous, now outdated gnon-proxies as worshiped by decandent and ultimately degenerate civilizations. Given that the chief differential between a Nietzschean übermensch classic (as promoted by BAP) and the tranny commissar is aesthetic, it’d appear to me that the difference between the two is aesthetic at the physiological level – i. e. comes directly from gnon through our ability to perceive beauty and ugliness.

            The Nietzschean übermensch thus serves gnon by rejecting the old morality and forging a completely new one, which given his aesthetic and practical superiority can only come from gnon. The tranny commissar, however, has not transcended old morality and built a new one, but uses the mirror image of the old morality and derives his power from Moloch.

            Hence BAP (and Nietzsche’s) call to burn down the cities, whereas tranny commissars would prefer you to stay in those cities and work for their interests.

    • Atavistic Morality says:

      A lack of necessity, an easy life thanks to civilization, facilitates a dysgenic effect but it’s not the source of it. You can’t be a weak faggot in the middle of the jungle, but it does not follow that you’ll be a weak faggot when you’re not in the middle of the jungle.

      70 years ago technology was plenty and most men weren’t weak faggots. The big difference being that 70 years ago the victim of bullying would have been considered the worst of the two parties involved for being a weak faggot and would have been told to become strong, unlike today where the victim is the hero.

      And according to your logic then we shouldn’t be able to find faggots in less technologically advanced times and places but that’s patently untrue, the word catamite has existed for a long time.

      Also, according to your logic most men today aren’t capable of being manly, and they’re either born manly or they are faggots for ever. All of this is patently untrue.

  4. Matt says:

    Is there nothing more cursed than Nigerian secret societies? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confraternities_in_Nigeria

    • Strannik says:

      Wow, stupid and evil, awesome.

    • info says:

      Speaking of secret societies there was elsagate:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMwx6-jJzNs

      I do wonder what role this has in regards to those in power? A cult that trafficks children. It seems similar to a group like the finders.

      Evil criminal scum or something similar to blackmail operations or to sate depraved desires of people in power

      Popped up in my youtube feed.

  5. MacGregor says:

    I admire your motivation to untangle this a bit.

    This post gets at an important distinction. As modern humans we interface with strangers (society) and non-strangers (community & stakeholders).

    Those who specialize in interfacing with strangers or society at large gain “cultural capital”. At their best, they become “cultural intermediaries”, and help set the conversation. This blog itself is an example.

    On the other hand, those who specialize in gaining reputation among their community or stakeholders are more like engineers or “soldiers” in your terminology – good at delivering on their promises, but not turning heads or setting the conversation among strangers. They may even be rough and rude towards each other, especially if the quality of one’s work is objectively knowable.

    With regards to holiness spirals – think of subcultures are status hierarchies.
    While the subculture is growing quickly, someone who gets in sooner or becomes central can “ride it to the top”, and then leverage their position for a large amount of power, both in the subculture and in mainstream society (“I am a respected representative of ____ “). But it is like a pyramid scheme – people jump on the bandwagon with the expectation that it will get bigger and pay dividends as more people join below them.

    Like any empire, when the subculture stops growing, it experiences divisions. Better to be the King of a small pond than a lieutenant in a shrinking hierarchy. Thus, the holiness spirals. What looks like “holiness spirals” from the outside is really the fragmenting of the subculture into mini-hierarchies. The only way a shrinking subculture stays coherent is if its members are not primarily gaining (or seeking) social capital or respect by being members. They may just be intrinsically motivated in the subject. But since humans are social animals, most of us are highly driven by status-seeking and respect.

    In this era of COVID it is easy to see the “moral curve” – what is consensus one day becomes decried as wrong and immoral the next, which becomes the new consensus. People who want to be “good” feel good if they are ahead of the moral curve. In fact, this righteousness helps people feel morally superior just for retweeting the newest emerging consensus, condemning the others and getting upvotes. People get really addicted to this. Mostly women who want to be seen as “good” by society for having the “right views”.

    —–

    What countries are ruled by warriors? Those that fear invasion.

    Think of Japan’s modernization after they saw what Europe did to China. Look at the rapid secularization and modernization of many Middle Eastern governments after Napoleon seized Egypt. The military didn’t always rule outright, but it was a potent force of coercion of the elites to tow the line.

    Countries that are not faced with existential threats or big wars have nothing forcing the aristocracy to compromise. As the country stagnates, the elites will put a priesthood into place that placates the people – or better yet, places them at each other’s throats in an internecine power grab. The current two-party divide we are supposed to be killing each other over is essentially urban vs. rural. In the best case, the Federal Government continues to become an unreliable shit show, and we all re-focus on local politics which are less about demonizing people in other states and more about pragmatic discussions on actually keeping our own regions in order.

  6. >The capacity of the Cathedral to abruptly and uniformly changed its line in a cohesive and coherent way indicates that the number of individuals is not a whole lot larger than the Dunbar number.

    I think it is certainly true of the tactical subset of the Cathedral, who are spinning the daily news, who act as politicians even if their job is a journalist.

    Less sure about the strategic aspect of the Cathedral, like, basically academia and education. Too big to be ruled by a few hundred, if it was so you could identify five people who are ruling historians, another five who are ruling economists etc.

    There is a simpler explanation for that. I struggled for years to figure out how can something act like a conspiracy without actual coordination and finally I have it. All you need is some widely shared value judgements, and then everybody will make the facts up on their own. Every smart and ambitious job-seeker pimps their resume the same way because everybody agrees what values – reliability, professionality, smartness and increasingly progressivity/diversity – they should represent. Similarly, just share a value judgement like “a lots of groups are oppressed” and smart and ambitious people fill it up with misrepresented or fake facts on their own just fine.

    Orwell kind of predicted it with “Ocenia is at war with Eastasia, therefore Ocania has always been at war with Eastasia.” This looks like a factual statement and that way it does not make sense. It makes more sense if you convert it to a value judgement like “Eastasia is evil, therefore Eastasia has always been evil.” Value judgements are more retroactive than statements of fact, you see, because every value tries to look universal. If slavery is evil now then of course it always had to be evil. Otherwise you don’t have a really sound value judgement, just an opinion or preference. Saying something worked okay back then but not now does not carry the same kind of, well, priestly power. Values are only powerful if they are eternal. So basically all they have to say is “Eastasia is evil and has always been evil” and people jump at it and manufacture a zillion fake facts to prove it.

    • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

      Academia is hierarchical and centralized, not in its locations or details of employment, but in the network of people who determine funding and hiring in any particular field, who are largely the same people who establish the research agenda of that field by training graduate students who train their own substudents and subsubstudents, etc, and the same process iterated for several academic generations.

      The upshot is that any field is in fact controlled and coordinated, scientifically (in STEM) and ideologically by a small number of people.

  7. Anonymous Fake says:

    [*deleted*]

  8. The Cominator says:

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/john-kass/ct-coronavirus-andrew-cuomo-joe-biden-kass-20200327-6j2azzvtyjdahmyxwd3zg2xp2m-story.html

    Looks like Cuomo will be the real nominee… I had always thought it would be Michelle Obama but they are telegraphing Cuomo.

    Surprised they would go with a white guy.

    • Pooch says:

      You could make a lot of money online if that’s the case.

      • The Cominator says:

        Thank you (I was frustrated before Moochelle wasn’t on there) yeah I think I’m going to place a small bet on him. My main hestitation is that maybe they nominate Biden at the convention with him as VP and then Biden drops.

        • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

          CTH was the first to predict Cuomo based on trial (pre) balloon spotting in the media. Let us give him his due if this is correct.

          Cuomo has no chance against Trump.

          Meanwhile, Jim’s 2026 has just occurred, an accelerationist Great Depression 2.0 installing 6 trillion dollar instant socialism over a flu. THIS is conspiracy writ large; the emergency measures-in-waiting magically materialized as an 800 page stimulus package written overnight.

        • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

          > Biden at the convention

          The DNC seems to be pretty done with democracy as a political form. An actual fair election would be their end at this point. Since there is no saviour who can solve this problem for them, I would, rather, look for overt and de facto banana republic tactics such as giving Trump coronavirus (cf. Boris Johnson), using the return of virus in the fall to prevent in-person voting, or selling Cuomo (if he is the nominee) as some sort of Sicilian warlord who will instate the iron hand and maintain order (after DNC/Soros thugs create the necessary chaos when virus panic declines).

          • Oog en Hand says:

            And what about Jill Stein?!

            Here some eye-candy, concerning the possibilities of photography…

            https://oogenhand.wordpress.com/2020/03/25/photographic-enhancement/

          • The Cominator says:

            The plot thickens… apparently Hillary is indeed trying to weasel her way in.

              • Strannik says:

                This was always the plan after 2016, as it’s the only way that that Harpy could ever become President, on the coat-tails of someone else.

            • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

              For candidates they are choosing between the miserable and the horrible. I think their actual choice is to rapidly destroy the country in order to save it.

              • The Cominator says:

                Would be quite interesting to see if Cuomo shoots himself twice in the back of the head soon.

                If that happens I’d bet my money on Hillary…

                • Mike says:

                  If that happens then it’s official, this era is the Crisis of the 3rd Century for the American Empire. We’ve got the Great Recession and 9/11 (Rome debasing its currency, having its economy destroyed by foreign wars), we’ve got the Coronavirus Pandemic (Representing the Antonine or Cyprian Plague) and now we might have potential usurpers (Hillary).

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Forget Hillary. More plausible banana republic scenarios of that kind are, e.g., Cuomo nominated, cedes local power to lieutenant governer to “campaign” (consolidate radical forces) nationwide in a Hitler-style barnstorming tour, meanwhile Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez takes over as commissar of New York.

            • BC says:

              The plot thickens… apparently Hillary is indeed trying to weasel her way in.

              Hillary’s not healthy enough to run for President. She could do VP and not camapgin, but she’s too much of a slobbing alcoholic mess for campaign for the primary job.

        • Pooch says:

          I may make a small bet as well. I still think it will be Biden though. I’ve yet to see a leftist remotely capable of realizing Biden is senile. It seems to be a thoughtcrime for them.

        • The Cominator says:

          CTH? Heartiste???

          • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

            Conservative Treehouse blogger “Sundance” = thelastrefuge2 on Twitter. He was criticized here of late. I’m not on Gab so no idea if Heartiste said anything about Cuomo.

        • The Cominator says:

          ” I’ve yet to see a leftist remotely capable of realizing Biden is senile.”

          Are you kidding do you read their commentary on fagbook… they ALL know hes senile and they don’t make a secret of knowing it either.

          Leftists are evil and insane but they aren’t so insane that they can’t tell Biden is senile and doesn’t even remember where he is.

          • jim says:

            Bernie boys are able to notice Biden is senile because they are lefter than him.

            If you are left, but not lefter than 2020 Biden (open borders and socialism lite) his senility is invisible.

            • Strannik says:

              I agree. These people aren’t self-reflective and self-aware, much less reflective and aware of what kind of people they’re really being led by.

              • jim says:

                > aware of what kind of people they’re really being led by

                You credit the top conspirators with more sanity than they possess. It is the insane leading the insane. Reflect on New York Governor Andrew Cuomo’s very holy efforts to shut down the use of hydroxychloroquine in New York.

                The background here was that the outbreak was centered on a group of synagogues, with, of course, quite a lot of old people. A Jewish doctor set to treating Orthodox Jews who tested positive for corona virus, and who were older than sixty or had diseases that put them at high risk. He has treated three hundred and fifty high risk patients so far. None of them have died yet, about forty of them probably would have died absent treatment, because he is treating high risk patients, and because he is treating patients who got the virus earlier than everyone else. The order was to shut him down, the order was motivated by him specifically, but Trump intervened.

                This is suicidal holiness. If you want your China virus death rate up, target blacks or someone. No one will care, least of all blacks, because blacks are socially atomized. If you want your death rate up, make sure no one who goes to the emergency department gets treatment, but let anyone who goes to a private doctor get treatment. Don’t target a cohesive and politically connected group, who have the ear of the president’s son in law.

                The problem is that treating people on the basis of studies that have not been officially blessed by the most holy Cathedral, or, as the Cathedral calls it “properly peer reviewed”, is an act of sacrilege. It is like using a crucifix to wipe your ass. Instant Trump derangement syndrome ensues. Every Jew that gets treated is committing sacrilege against the most holy faith. Cuomo’s brain shut down as fast as that of any blue haired childless thirty six year old shrew on twitter.

                Anecdotal evidence is unreliable, but it is one hell of a lot more reliable than anything that has passed through peer review, for peer review is the consensus of the insane, which tends to be even more insane than any one individual madman of the group constructing the consensus.

                • Strannik says:

                  Okay, so maybe I’m in denial that these people are so crazy-the leaders, that is. After all i’ve met some of them and they do appear to be remarkably stupid for one thing from what i’ve seen personally. Stupid and weak.

                  So if my mind isn’t grasping what I’ve seen personally, and I’m in denial about just how nuts they are, then the only thing I can conclude is that the only reason they continue to exist at the top of the food chain still is the forebearing nature of people like me.

                  After all as I’ve said i’ve known some of these ”leaders”, and God knows I frequently wanted to just crush one’s windpipe and kick the other’s rotten head in, were I not the better person in actuality.

                  No, if you’re right, then my best ”revenge” will come when the Elites are truly rotated and these swine are standing before military tribunals begging for their lives.

                • jim says:

                  The reason that they are at the top of the food chain is that they are leadership of a powerful and cohesive group, whose cohesion relies on a shared faith.

                  When that shared faith became holier than God, it transliterated its doctrine from this world to the next, which led to odd doctrines on easily falsified questions of empirical fact. They got around this problem by doublethink and unprincipled exceptions, but then, to maintain cohesion, selected the most holy – those who believe most sincerely in obvious falsities (point deer, make horse) and who object to unprincipled exceptions.

                  So the shared faith got crazier and crazier, and started taking positions of an ever increasing number of issues of empirical fact. So the selection for faith, tended to become selection for stupidity and ignorance.

                  But they are still a cohesive group of powerful people. Hence at the top of the foodchain.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “But they are still a cohesive group of powerful people. Hence at the top of the foodchain.”

                  I wonder if they could ever get SO stupid and unpopular that they could be overthrown without a complete breakdown in cohesion.

                  Its never to my knowledge ever happened in the West (that there was a successful revolt from below without the support of either a foreign power or much of the elite defecting 1st) but it HAS happened in China… and we’ve never had an elite that was such a perfect combination of stupidity, insanity and effeminancy (the early communists were insane, but they were not effeminate and they weren’t all stupid either).

                • jim says:

                  You do need the support of a substantial fraction of the elite. And the elite is mighty pozzed.

                  The problem is not removal and replacement of a handful of top leaders by unusual means, which happens all the time all over the place, but replacement of an ever more insane state religion, which is considerably less common, generally takes a long time, and tends to be a mighty unpleasant process.

                  The fall of communism was sudden and painless. That happened because the left has to swim ever lefter, and there have to be ever more priestly jobs for ever more holy people. When Stalin stopped that process dead its tracks, the faith just quietly expired, leaving a vacuum that Putin is attempting to fill with a revived Russian Orthodoxy.

                  Stopping the Russian movement ever leftwards was far from sudden and painless. Your proposed purge would, however, certainly accomplish it. But a precondition for your proposed purge would be outright war between the president and the presidency. Which is in the cards, but not yet on the table.

                  Similarly the Restoration was almost bloodless, because Cromwell, though a true believer as Stalin was, had halted the ever leftwards movement.

                  Napoleon halted the ever leftwards movement, a job that the directory had begun, but had failed to adequately complete. The fall of Napoleon merely led to leftism derived from the Puritans replacing leftism derived from the false Popes of Avignon. Imagine Russia if the coups that the Democratic Party and the State Department were plotting had succeeded.

                  So, the least bloody and destructive path to victory would be Trump becoming Caesar Augustus, halting movement ever leftwards and cutting back on priestly jobs, without exterminating leftism Cominator style or replacing it as I propose. Replacement will follow by and by.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “The problem is not removal and replacement of a handful of top leaders by unusual means, which happens all the time all over the place, but replacement of an ever more insane state religion, which is considerably less common, generally takes a long time, and tends to be a mighty unpleasant process.”

                  Yes the problem is too much of the elite still sincerely believe in some form of progressivism.

                  This was only cured in Russia by Stalin murdering the vast majority of his fellow old Bolsheviks (and he was absolutely right to do so).

                  In China it was only cured by the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. Deng did not have to kill many true believing Maoists because at that point there were so few left. Tiannamen square was their pathetic attempt to take back power but it didn’t amount to much.

                  In the US I’ve thought it could only be cured by Trump (an open heretic on the throne) or someone like him getting absolute power and then essentially ordering at the 1st opportunity the mass murder of the elite… but the recent Corona-crisis has made me a lot more pessmistic that he’ll ever be able to achieve this.

                  Before this their attempts at damaging Trump were unimaginative and inept the political equivalent of screaming at the sky… pathetic really. This one (even if the Democrats are retarded enough to paint themselves into taking the blame for the economy) shows more intelligence and imagination.

                  Is there a plan B (besides flee the country and let the holiness spiral in all its insane horror play out)?

                • jim says:

                  > Before this their attempts at damaging Trump were unimaginative and inept the political equivalent of screaming at the sky… pathetic really. This one (even if the Democrats are retarded enough to paint themselves into taking the blame for the economy) shows more intelligence and imagination.

                  Never underestimate Trump. He is a master at maneuvering his enemies into self destruction.

                  The latest data indicates that we have a complete cure for China virus, in the sense of reducing the death rate among the elderly and frail to near zero. Which cure will be intransigently resisted to the bitter end as Trump re-opens the country for business, while Democratic Party state leaders continue to close it down and deny people treatment. Played right, will be a total Democratic Party debacle.

                • ten says:

                  My impression is that the tiananmen square protests were liberal, not maoist, protests. Maybe some maoists tried to get in on the fun, i have not heard of them in that case.

                  Spandrells short take on the issue https://spandrell.com/2019/06/06/tiananmen/

                • jim says:

                  > My impression is that the tiananmen square protests were liberal, not maoist, protests.

                  To judge by what the media runs in China, they have primarily a Maoist problem. They are running endless economics 101 propaganda – that thrift, had work, wise judgement in use of capital, correct decisions on acquiring and applying capital, are likely to make you deservedly rich.

                  To judge by what the Party is doing, their problem is not liberals, it is Maoists and Muslims telling the Cathedral that they liberals in order to get funding, arms, and international media support.

                  Similarly in Syria, progressives were determined to believe that they were backing liberals, even though those “liberals” intended to exterminate the Alawite minority and expel the Christian minority. Assad never acted as if he thought he had an internal liberal problem. He had an external liberal problem, and Communist Party of China acts as if it has an external liberal problem, and an internal Maoist problem. I watched a Chinese video at length, primarily looking for their take on the woman problem, but there was so much anti Maoist propaganda that I got bored. I did not see any anti liberal propaganda.

                • The least painful is probably when a disillusioned former true believer like Napoleon stops the ratchet. Now wonder the guys over the Imperial Energy blog worship him.

                  When a true believer does it is always terrible, and a conservative might not entirely understand the true depth of the rot. Although if Trump in 2000 seriously proposed Oprah to be his VP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_2000_presidential_campaign he might actually be something like a disillusioned ex-true-believer to some extent.

                  What was that whole Reform Party business anyway? How did Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan end up being in the same party? It’s weird.

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  This evolving “chloroquine-gate” situation really is getting wild and absurd. We have people going on TV now talking about how it helped cure them, and recently a non-white one no less.

                  And governors and mayors are trying to ban it. Ban it. Ban a promising medicine right in the middle of a way bigger world pandemic than I could have ever imagined.

                  Now believe me, I too hope that this is Trump (and his Israeli buddies in the pill business, oh well fine) handing out nooses to his enemies but… wow just wow.

                  There was this poor shlub on TV, looking all beat up from a long stay in the hospital, telling how after all that he had to ASK for the hydroxychloroquine. Had to ask.

                  “Say Doc, we’ve tried all the slow and bankruptingly expensive stuff and it hasn’t helped… so can we try the cheap and apparently effective stuff as a last resort?”

                  And then he felt better the next day.

                  I mean this is torches and pitchforks type stuff.

                  So if anyone here can give any other explanation for why the medical establishment isn’t jumping on this with desperate abandon, I’d love to hear it.

                • jim says:

                  Trump held out a noose to his enemies, and they grabbed it enthusiastically with both hands.

                  Last I heard Dr. Doctor Vladimir Zelenko of Orange country was at the ground zero of the epidemic in America, was only treating patients who are at high risk of death from China virus (elderly or with serious additional conditions) 500 patients, no hospitalizations.

                • jim says:

                  Trump has a bunch of buddies in the pharma business, and they are fighting him tooth and nail. They want the medicine to be something expensive and on patent, but it just so happens that over time, most medicines are off label, or common substances that are classed as trace nutrients (zinc, to which I add copper, manganese, and Epson salts, because an imbalance of divalent salts can make you sick) and so, when they threw everything and anything at the disease to see what stuck, what stuck was stuff that Big Pharma cannot profit from.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Well, it’s a form of confirmation of Jim’s “they can’t even think it” theory. The public health and hospital bureaucrats have been so pozzed for so long to worship at the altar of double blind multizillion-dollar FDA protocols that they can’t process the idea that a non-blind, Give It Out Like Candy approach using cheap medicines known to be harmless and credibly claimed to be super-effective, is a rational strategy and in fact the only viable strategy at the moment.

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  > zinc, to which I add copper, manganese,
                  > and Epson salts, because an imbalance
                  > of divalent salts can make you sick

                  Do kindly please share, elaborate, link, footnote, etc, whatever.

                • jim says:

                  If you have too much of one divalent salt, the effect tends to be similar to, or cause, a deficiency of other divalent salts.

                  So, because I take zinc, I take it mixed with the other biologically important divalent salts.

                  Assuming we are going to make up a mixture of 210gm Epson salts (210 000 mg)
                  1.6gm zinc citrate (1600mg)
                  400mg copper sulphate
                  1.6gm magnesium gluconate (1600mg)
                  plus a couple of grams of citric acide to help dissolve the mix.

                  And then I take a teaspoonful of the mixture dissolved in four hundred ml of water. If it leaves a foul aftertaste, you have enough.

            • BC says:

              I’ve observed the same on reddit.

    • It’s not going to fly. If he “saved NY” from our lady of wuhan, maybe he had a shot, but right now he is presiding over immanent apocalypse. Heard today that some truckers are refusing to deliver food to NYC. When the shelves are empty, blood will flow.

      • Karl says:

        Why should it matter for his chances if blood flows? If can plausibly claim that he prevented worse or even resolved a bloody mess, he could even benefit from the crisis.

        To have a chance, he’ll have to appear as man who acts, who implements harsh measures in a dificult situation. Can he do that?

        • jim says:

          Trouble is, Cuomo is trying to kill people and will be seen to be trying to kill people. His hydroxychloroquine trial seems strangely slow in getting off the ground, and meanwhile he is trying to stop doctors from using effective medication.

          The anecdotes that hydroxychloroquine is effective just keep piling up. He is going to look like the man that turned New York City upside down trying to keep the epidemic going, not the man that turned New York City upside down trying to prevent it.

          • Mister Grumpus says:

            What a high stakes game this is. How hard for all but the nuclear-brass-balled to stick to what he sees with his own eyes to be true, rather than what’s acceptable. But I guess looming and approaching mass death (and personal death also, natch) will tend to beat the bullshit out of some people. If kidney stones weren’t life threatening, we’d never choose to pass them.

            We’ll poz for membership, poz for acceptance, poz for a job, poz for a promotion, but poz to die, nigga?

            Trump signed his name to HCL at one of the press conferences. Wrote his name right on it while everyone was watching on ratings-record television. Perhaps after learning about that rebel Jewish doctor in Brooklyn using it to such great effect. It’s The Trump Cure now, the Trump cure that he risked more than hardly anyone could stand to risk to get out there.

            I suppose we’ll soon learn that he’s been on it himself for some time. And that Boris Johnson cured himself with it, etc.

            Please God please.

            • Mister Grumpus says:

              I don’t mean “chloroquine-gate”.

              I mean “cure-gate”. That’s the ticket.

              Curegate.

          • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

            Cuomo’s brother the TV host announced on Twitter that he has CV19, with some symptoms.

            If Trump can verifiably say that Cuomo the Lesser was treated with the very antimalarials that Cuomo the Mediocre just tried to ban (or worse, the protocol from the ultra-Orthodox Trumpist Jew colony that Cuomo tried to wipe out), taking credit for saving the former from the latter, that would be a nice pre-emptive humiliation in case Andrew does run for national office.

  9. Will says:

    I’ve been lurking for years and I’d like to thank you Jim for all your work. I’ve read most of the posts on your blog, and a lot of the comments, and they have dramatically improved my understanding of human nature and the history. Your models work very well, actually explain the world, better than most everything else I’ve come across. I can look at history, a news story, or a social interaction and see the cause and effect, what’s actually going on beneath the surface.

    Also thank you to the interesting commenters here.

    Could anyone recommend any available books or other writing describing social interactions in high-functioning, non-pozzed times in history, such as during the Reformation? Things like how women were viewed and handled, racial views, role of government, warriors, priests, merchants. Hopefully there’s some material that hasn’t gone down the memory hole. Or any other books to help elucidate Jimianity.

    • Will says:

      s/Reformation/Restoration

      • May I pick a nit? I don’t think it is entirely Restoration either, because they surely did something wrong if they lost. If they did everything right, they would still be in power and we wouldn’t have this problem at all. So it is not 100% Restoration. Something similar, yes, but something more resilient to Prog attacks than in the oldie times.

        I really pissed at the Revolution Podcast when he said Charles I had his head chopped off because he was rigidly uncompromising, while Louis for the opposite reason, he had no backbone. Morally speaking, you are not supposed to say not only to a king but to no person at all that if you don’t balance a very narrow tightrope you get your head chopped off and you kinda deserve it. But in a way he had a point. If you cannot save your throne or head neither by playing hardball nor by playing softball, something had to be a bit rotten in the system.

        • jim says:

          It is whig history that Charles I lost his head by playing hardball. He let traitors live and prosper, when he could have and should have killed them. He only started playing hardball after treason had prospered.

          • Dave says:

            I was shocked to learn that President Batista pardoned the Castro brothers in 1955 after their failed assault on the Moncada Barracks. Batista was too much of a bleeding-heart liberal to just line up captured rebels in front of a wall and shoot them.

    • jim says:

      There is nothing that has it in clear and concentrated dose. It was in the air they breath, only present indirectly, the most direct references being similes, for example Machiavelli saying “It is better to be audacious than cautious, because fortune is a woman, and if you wish to keep her under it is necessary to beat and ill-use her; and it is seen that she allows herself to be mastered by the adventurous rather than by those who go to work more coldly.” It was what everyone knew, and no one needed to say.

      • This is why I am reading those who were considered liberals like Montesquieau, as it is pretty interesting how many things he was *not* liberal about from todays perspective.

        Like that M. considered the best way to handle the WQ in the example of a tiny ancient republic, where during a popular assembly all unmarried men were evaluated and ranked for their public virtues and the No. 1 got the first choice of unmarried girls, the second chose after him etc. No mention of consent, no mention why this kind of reward is the most motivating etc. etc. all these considered obvious.

        M. was even okay with monarchy, saying that if a country does not have enough public virtue (elite cohesion) like Civil War England wasn’t it is better to have a king.

        He would quite shocked to see how his beloved separation-of-powers basically destroyed everything else he valued.

        • Atavistic Morality says:

          Surprisingly Rousseau was a staunch defender of the pater familias model of Rome, and this guy was somehow the inspiration for Marx… history is a bit of a joke.

        • The Cominator says:

          Montesquieau otoh came up with “seperation of powers” one of histories single worst ideas.

          Seperation of powers is to political science what Marxism is to economics.

          • Yes, I mentioned that in the last line. But after having read The Spirit of Laws I am actually more confused how exactly he meant that. In that book he mentions the idea that a King should govern by making laws, so doing the legislative, and leaving the implementaiton, executive details to the aristocracy to do as they see fit.

            This actually makes sense, as it is just a no-micromanagement argument, if you work at a large corporation, it also makes sense that the CEO should just set down a policy on how to do things and not micromanage stuff. Once I was assembling a requirements specification for a software for a large company and my two inputs were the laws and the precisely formulated and numbered standing orders of the CEO which also looked like laws. That works. So far makes sense.

            Yet things get weird when we consider that M.’s inspiration was the Lockean system of William the Third/of Orange where it was exactly the other way around, Parliament had legislative power and the King merely executive, had to obey those laws. Now, that is clearly the bad system as it is exactly the other way around from the CEO-sets-policy logic.

            That is, that sytem and eventually the modern systems core problem is that execution should be downstream from legislation. That is how a corporation works, one CEO legislates and a zillion managers execute. While a Parliament of many legislating and one King or President executing is a very stupid idea.

            So it is weird. Maybe M. just wanted separation, not really caring which way it happens.

        • Steve Johnson says:

          Even that arrangement is complex and vulnerable to subversion.

          Women don’t rank men the same way men rank each other; women also have to be motivated to show their value to men – how they look is a big part of it but when finding a wife things like temperament and domestic skills matter a lot – M’s described method allows women to secretly court the men they want while putting on a public face that lets them escape being picked by men they find less desirable. Women also have influence over their fathers who have influence over the men making the choices and can leverage their social power that way as well.

          Not insoluble problems but a complications that I guarantee women instinctively understand.

          • yewotm8 says:

            Is there any system less vulnerable to female subversion? If women have influence over their fathers then a strict patriarchy is also vulnerable.

            • jim says:

              The problem is failure to acknowledge that females are apt to party their lives away by not being domestic (the fridge of a “strong empowered single woman” is apt to be empty) and fucking Mister One In Thirty, frequently starting well before their teens. They don’t accumulate capital, they don’t build, and they don’t have kids. And if they are so lucky that Mister One in Thirty drops in, they don’t have the means to make him a nice grilled lettuce, tomato, cheese, and bacon sandwich. They don’t have kids because they are fucking men who are far out of their own league. If you give women and girls the opportunity to screw men who are out of their league, they will do it. It is like watching television with a party sized bag potato chips beside you. The bag mysteriously becomes empty, and if a man and woman are together behind closed doors, they are going to wind up horizontal. And women keep wandering off to places where they are likely to be raped, and only complain about it if the rape is unsuccessful. Same as complaints in the workplace about sexual harassment. They are rarely if ever complaining about unwanted beta male attention, they are really complaining about alpha male lack of attention, or alpha males failing unwanted and intrusive shit tests.

              I think patriarchy would do fine if the media realistically represented female lust as the problem that it is. The Victorian approach of socially encouraging chastity by attributing chastity to women failed catastrophically, resulting in the Oliver Twist problem, leading to welfare and child support replacing marriage.

              Female lust is different from male lust. Men are polygamous, women are hypergamous, hence alpha widowhood. A girl gets a booty call from Jeremy Meeks, stops banging her boyfriend, stops doing anything except wait for a second booty call. To Just Another Chump, this looks like chastity, frigidity, and lack of any interest in sex, though her life is falling apart as she waits for the second booty call, which never comes.

              You will notice that female sex tourism tends to be to locations notorious for rape. A man goes to the local pickup joint, a woman goes a thousand miles.

              Another factor that causes dads to erroneously impute chastity to their daughters is the nature of the mating dance. The mating dance is pursuit and predation, conquest and surrender. Men perform and women choose. Dad correctly observes that alpha male predated on his daughter, fails to notice that she traveled four hundred miles to find a high alpha to predate upon her.

              Another factor is that dad is unaware of how agreeable women are to be assigned to sexual service by an alpha male. Women tend to be magnetically attracted to a male who has a bunch of male followers, and he, having more pussy than he can handle, is apt to share them out to his followers – the alpha of the group is doing what dad failed to do, but with considerably less concern for precious daughter’s welfare and prospects for giving her dad grandchildren. Women do not actually like having sexual choice, and they are not very good at it.

    • Dave says:

      Doctors and pharmacists should openly defy the governor’s orders and brag about it, and if they can’t get the drugs, direct patients to providers in other states. If the state sends you a threatening letter, frame it and hang it in your waiting room.

      Of course I wouldn’t expect this sort of defiance from a female doctor, they’re too risk-averse, so better seek a white male doctor when you start coughing blood.

  10. Atavistic Morality says:

    With the whole Coronavirus thing and how they are immanentizing the eschaton with their new found excuse for insanity, I’ve had a thought I’d like your opinion on Jim.

    We are constantly bombarded through different angles and media about how we are being spied on and the government knows everything and records everything and google/facebook yada yada yada (this is typical shitlib leftist paranoia regurgitated in reddit over and over). What if that’s an actual psyops they’ve been playing for a while? What if Snowden was/is actually a double agent fronting for the worthless and incompetent USgov so they can project a power they never had and every day losing more and more?

    When you think about it… no longer nuclear weapons, lost plenty of technology and getting worse, more and more insanity and nigger worship which keeps crippling further and further their capability. They can’t even get a bunch of medical kits right! But these people, according to certain actors, are supposed to be the big brother no one can escape. Be afraid, you’ll be caught, you can’t do anything, etc. I’m sure the KGB also went around with psyops like this and it didn’t stop the Russian Mafia or a huge black market one bit, these imbeciles are going to pull off something of that magnitude? No way, a barking dog seldom bites.

    The NWO sold as some form of absolute power must certainly be a fed creation to demoralize and black pill possible dissidents. I reckon, if these people had half the power these conspiracies imply people like you would be rotting in some cell already. These are priests making up the holy power to magically smite heretics, which they don’t have and every day less likely to. Also the reason why that specific narrative seems to get stronger by the day, the weaker they are the more insistent they’re gonna be about their strength.

    • Matt says:

      Suppose 85% of the population are idiots. Suppose 2% of the population are good. Suppose 1% of the population is evil. Suppose the two group deceive each other through innumerable feints and provocations and redirecting various events for various purposes…

      Just suppose…

      • The Cominator says:

        What about evil idiots who believe in progressivism… thats a lot more than 2% of the population though its a lot less than 85%.

        • Matt says:

          It is all a matter of degrees and awareness.

          If it can be proven that 85% of the population are borderline p-zombies, they can’t be convicted for more than 3rd-degree murder.

        • jim says:

          Most of the population just give it increasingly cynical lip service.

          When it is no longer enforced, you will see vast numbers reveal themselves, as in the fall of the Soviet Union, as Havel’s Greengrocer.

          When it is no longer high status – see Atavisionary on prig progs – you will suddenly here a lot less of it.

          But while it is high status and powerful, everyone acts as if it is high status and powerful, which makes it high status and powerful.

          With the Soviet Union, the faith was high status and powerful, but empty of sincere belief. When the Soviet Union failed in Afghanistan, largely because of logistic incapacity (they had enough high explosives, but insufficient potatoes and spare tires) the dominoes started falling, causing, and caused by, the loss of the perception of power. Eventually they fell all the way to Moscow.

          The same may be happening with the American empire. After defeat in Syria, the Philippines and Thailand fell away.

          • Allah says:

            What about the age divide? I wager that during Soviet decline, the Soviet youngsters considered communism low status and weak compared to the West. I do not see anything big challenging progs, and zoomers seem to be the most zealous progs.

            • jim says:

              Why was communism low status and weak? Their empire was falling, and the American empire is now falling.

              Until the fall of communism, the Star Treck spinoffs envisaged a future in which the Soviet Union had won, and America had peacefully merged into it. Communism was mighty high status in the Star Treck studios.

              I saw, and many people saw, the fall of communism five years in advance, and that lowered its status in the eyes of those who could see, but most people did not see, and to the vast majority, it remained high status until the fall.

              Lots of people were indignant at the disrespect Reagan showed the Soviet Union.

              • Allah says:

                Yes, but to rephrase the comparison, the Soviets could clearly see they were being outcompeted by another empire and another religion, whereas the fall of progs is entirely their own fault with no apparent replacement among the minds of the young.

              • The Cominator says:

                Allah shill of whatever faction he is (its hard to figure out but something is up) has a point.

                NOBODY believed in communism in the Soviet Union from the 1970s on and from what I heard I don’t think people even bothered pretending to. The youth were just very vocal about their cynicism. Between Stalin deliberately wiping out the most fanatical true believers (complete with in the end phase appointing Beria the head of the secret police, a man who joined the communists party specifically to kill other communists because he hated communists and never even pretended to be one) and the Soviet Union being forced to fight histories most total war on its own soil the Soviet Union was both purged of believers and violently mugged by reality.

                The US still has tons of true believers and they still dominate the institutions, our great hope was a Trump coup (as there is no crisis of faith within the Cathedral just an ever escalating insanity spiral) followed by purges but the prospects of that suddenly look far more remote.

                Also as a matter of effective political labeling… we should start referring to the leftist purity/holiness spiral as the “lunacy spiral”.

                • jim says:

                  > from what I heard I don’t think people even bothered pretending to. The youth were just very vocal about their cynicism.

                  I guarantee that not one young person in Russia was vocal about their cynicism, and very few were vocal about their cynicism in America. After it fell, they rewrote their past.

                  I recall the Reagan campaign. A whole lot of people in the US found skepticism of the Soviet Union’s power and success low status, which they called ignorant and stupid, and Academia and the Media kept that line going right up to the fall. There was as much “Reagan is a ignorant moron” about his Russia skepticism as there is today “Trump is an ignorant moron” about Trump’s hydroxychloroquine policy and economic program.

                  Every academic in the West believed in communism, in the sense if you were a student who doubted that the USSR was doing great, you were marked down, and if you were an academic who doubted, you lost tenure. You also got essay questions where the correct answer was that Maoism was doing great, and the Nationalists were really bad and failing miserably, and everyone piously wrote the correct essay, even if they inwardly doubted.

                  Russia skepticism was like the red pill. Everyone knows that progressivism is terribly and dangerously wrong about women but no one says so. And back in those days, everyone knew that communism was a failure, but no one said so. Not in the west, and even less in Russia.

                  In the American presidential primaries, Reagan was skeptical of the USSR, but he did not take such a dangerously outrageous position in the presidential election, and when he dog whistled Russia skepticism, as the Bear ad during the presidential campaign, people did not comprehend, or if they did comprehend, refused to acknowledge, even to themselves, that they comprehended.

                  After the USSR fell, they rewrote their pasts that they had always doubted that the Soviet Union was a big success, and it was Reagan telling us the Soviet Union was powerful, a U-turn as abrupt, absurd, outrageous, and ridiculous, as the U-turn on the Khmer Rouge.

                • The Cominator says:

                  I’m not arguing about the US official love for communism we’re discussing what the Russians thought about it…

                  I recall seeing clips of Reagan’s supposed jokes about the Soviet Union (“there is no god, thats okay there are no potatoes”) I’ve known a couple Russians who grew up behind the iron curtain they indeed said jokes like that were very common.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN3z3eSVG7A

                • jim says:

                  I was not in Russia, and you were not either, but I can tell you that in America, that heresy was shocking, and I can see that in America, people suddenly re-remembered their past and invented a past in which it was not shocking, so I infer a similar memory wipe in Russia.

                  Some people did indeed make those jokes, but it was few in America, which would suggest it was fewer still in Russia.

                  Yes, people did tell those jokes. But communism and the Soviet Union was high status enough to make such jokes distinctly impious, and telling them was rather daring. High status enough to make such jokes daring here, and therefore more daring in the Soviet Union.

                  People today in America make jokes about female nature – furtively and daringly. Which indicates that female status is, for the moment, intact.

                • pdimov says:

                  > > from what I heard I don’t think people even bothered pretending to. The youth were just very vocal about their cynicism.

                  > I guarantee that not one young person in Russia was vocal about their cynicism, and very few were vocal about their cynicism in America. After it fell, they rewrote their past.

                  Cominator is correct. Young people in communist countries were vocal about their cynicism. I know because I was one.

            • Strannik says:

              The effects of the Great Patriotic War were still very much in the collective psyche, because they still are today 75 years later. That is, the generation that fought in Afghanistan was very much in awe of their fathers, their sacrifices and accomplishments. ”Communism” was being absorbed into a larger narrative of Russian national survival, and fighting Jihadis in Afghanistan with the Jihadis as a kind of Fascist made sense to a lot of guys over there.

              • info says:

                @Strannik

                Fighting under an evil regime is still a shit sandwich even when fighting for survival.

                Its not a good thing to be loyal to evil and unjust leaders or a party apparatus that mass murdered innocents ever since bolsheviks took over.

                • Strannik says:

                  There’s no question that Russia was fighting for existential survival. Had Hitler won there would have been extermination as the next consequence, and the end of the Russian people as a people. The real ”Man of Steel” in Russia was not Stalin, but the Russian soldiers of the Red Army.

                • ten says:

                  There were no exterminationist policies in the cards for the czech or the poles – there were however some exterminationist retoric. West slavs certainly were considered higher and safer than east slavs, but why do you think there would have been russian extermination instead of communist extermination followed by russian vassalization on the model of austria-hungary?

    • Information is a weird thing. One would think everybody (in power) wants as much as possible. But actually being overwhelmed with too much information is also a problem. I find it was easier to find a given site with Google 10-15 years ago because there were fewer sites, so fewer false positive hits. Today the skill is in narrow down the result set. Less info, not more.

      And if they are generally incompetents… that is what incompetents would do, wouldn’t they? Boss asks a question, they give him a thousand pages of info. Which he will never read. But hey their asses are covered, as the answer is surely in those thousand pages somewhere… it takes competent, motivated and willingly risk-taking employees to cut it down to something short and useful, to provide an executive summary, the risk is obviously in that if they overlook something that can be held against them.

      Funnily, I think it boils down to how unique your name is. If you are called John Smith, they have some much info on people called John Smith, they never narrow it down to one particulary wrongthink or whatever you committed.

  11. Anonymous Fake says:

    “Most of the population just give it increasingly cynical lip service.”

    This is completely wrong. People can give lip service to something like “workers of the world unite”, but when they openly support infanticide and homosexuals abducting and castrating children, you had better believe they mean it! Absurdities are a loyalty test with high accuracy, but atrocities are loyalty tests with absolute accuracy. Lots of RINOS, no such thing as DINOS, because there are certain things one doesn’t say lightly.

    “Just following orders” doesn’t work when you’re doing true believer activities. Leftists aren’t going to be stopped by elections because they can always fake out their opponents by impersonation, but the opposite cannot occur. They have to be stopped when the right starts engaging in behavior that cannot be faked, either. Definitely civil disobedience, and probably violence.

    • jim says:

      Someone is being pious about global warming. I say global warming is a scam, and that the failure of the various Green Energy efforts shows that the greenies cared more about shaking down the grid for a few bucks than Green Energy. The pious man falls silent.

      The faith is brittle and weak. You don’t argue the alleged facts about global warming, you strike at their moral supremacy.

      • Theshadowedknight says:

        Jim is correct here. While the kids are not exactly right wing, leftism is low status and I can bully the younger leftists into silence. They just get quiet and sad. That is not the case with Millenial or GenX leftists, who often argue past where it is obvious that they are out of their league. The youngest leftists, few as they are, barely believe it. They certainly have no strength of belief. That does not bode well for the future progressives.

        • Dave says:

          By brainwashing young people into not having children, progressives are selecting susceptibility to progressivism out of the gene pool.

      • Anonymous Fake says:

        Global warming, much like coronavirus, can be exaggerated for loyalty or for policies. It’s up for debate. But atrocities are always atrocities.

        Green energy fails because of the right, not left. It’s used as a supplement for fossil fuels, but not an opposition in the way nuclear power could be. It’s controlled opposition.

        I’m going to add again, that what I have said (and you keep deleting) about schools being corrupted by real estate is empirical reality. No ordinary American cared about Harvard until they realized getting into Harvard meant their local school would develop an elite reputation that would reflect on their housing values. Soon after getting on the elite university radar, elite school districts start producing gay pride parades to keep that visibility and housing values up.

        You confuse old school Harvard, even unitarian Harvard from centuries ago, with how it conquered middle America after the 1980’s or so. Real estate hustling is why people are more obsessed with schooling than ever, even as it’s technologically dubious, and coronavirus is proving this. It’s all about the banker to real estate pipeline, and the universities are the middleman.

        South Korea has less than 1.0 children per family, but homes are worth millions of dollars, and they are grotesquely obsessed with schooling. North Korea is the future.

        • pdimov says:

          Green energy fails because it’s net energy negative. There is no right or left here.

        • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

          Rate of admission to Harvard or similar universities does not (so far) play a role in setting US real estate prices. The school data used to sell homes are systemwide data from state databases, such as average SAT scores, performance on basic competency exams, and percent of graduates who attend any college at all.

          The elite college admissions craze starting in the 1980’s was from the Echo Boom demographic bulge, 70’s economic shocks creating incentives, Reagan airline deregulation lowering travel costs and colleges beginning to compete against each other for resources. This made Harvard less distinct and less uniquely powerful compared to its competitors, diffusing Prog power more widely and evenly.

  12. Shlomo ben Goyblatt says:

    We saw what rule by priests brought to the world during the Dark Ages. Grand Inquisitors, confession by torture, burning at the stake, disregard for science. So we probably don’t want to revisit that path.

    Then we saw what rule by dictator brought to the world. Oy vey never again.

    We should just let Israel run things, life would be much simpler.

    • jim says:

      Hey the inquisition executed a couple of thousand over a couple of centuries. The communists murdered a hundred million over a few years.

      We definitely do want to revisit that path. You cannot let heretics undermine the state religion if it is a reasonably sane religion.

      But evil and insane state religions undermine themselves, so they are apt to murder very large numbers of heretics.

      Spain faced external subversion from a powerful and hostile Muslim neighbor, with Jews frequently being agents of that power, so killing off a tiny number of heretics was like executing communists. Needs to be done.

      The Spanish inquisition was fine. If England had had an inquisition, the progs would never have regained power. William Wilberforce needed to be sent to Jamaica as a slave, and the entryists who took over the Africa society should have been executed for their crimes.

      That said, I think the inquisition only needs to keep an eye on members of state and quasi state institutions. Converting everyone at swordpoint is apt to be a nasty business, bad for the economy, and bad for technological innovation.

      If we keep the state and quasi statal apparatus in line, that will require considerably fewer executions than the Spanish inquisition needed in its efforts to keep everyone in line.

      • Aldon says:

        Sure that you’re talking a fedora tipper or a Jew.

      • The Cominator says:

        Some religions should be tolerated outside state and quasi state jobs and some should be ruthlessly hunted down and eliminated in their entirety.

        Islam of the non-sufi variety, progressivism and communism need to be ruthlessly hunted down and purged to the last man and the women spared only if it would massively upset the ratio (which it would if you killed all the prog women) and only as very low status slave concubines

    • Aldon says:

      >We saw what rule by priests brought to the world during the Dark Ages.

      A more fulfilling and fertile society than today’s. Or how many kids within your own kind do you think White men off the street have?

      >Grand Inquisitors, confession by torture, burning at the stake,

      You don’t know anything about Medieval European history outside of Braveheart and Monty Python and reddit accounts.

      Burnings in significant European numbers occurred post-Medieval and were committed by Prots.

      The Inquistiors were ultimately a predecessor to investigative justice. They had specific rules for how to handle their duties, how to accuse, and were trained to be skeptical of claims of say, performing sorcery.

      >disregard for science

      Considering how “science” came to be in Medieval Europe and nowhere else (the Greeks, Chinese, etc. all never had such, merely engineering for China and theorizing for Greeks respectively). I’m not sure what you’re on about. Doubt you can name any examples to back you up considering how lacking in history fedora tippers are.

      >Then we saw what rule by dictator brought to the world. Oy vey never again.

      Stalinism and Fascism were just less degenerate versions of liberalism acting up to keep society from going too far into perversion (hence Stalin having fags locked up).

      >We should just let Israel run things, life would be much simpler.

      Israel is a multicultural pit filled with fags and dysfunctional women. The muds are the ones who breed highest, not the Ashkenazi.

      • Allah says:

        Israel just goes along with prog doctrine to secure Western support, no? Even the secular Jewish birth rate is above replacement and the religious Jews are shitting out Jews like it’s 1933.

        • Aldon says:

          >Israel just goes along with prog doctrine to secure Western support, no?

          Just a cope. Tel Aviv doesn’t get the title of Gayest City on Earth unless for nothing.

          >Even the secular Jewish birth rate is above replacement

          Where is that? Diaspora Secular/Reform/Ashkenazi Jews are mingling outside of the synagogue. Israel’s population of such from all evidence doesn’t have any more kids than Euros do.

          >the religious Jews are shitting out Jews like it’s 1933.

          I know. They’re also the browner Jews.

    • The Cominator says:

      Priest did not rule during the “dark ages” priests tried to take over from the time of Gregorian Papacy to Innocent III and they almost succeeded and they ruined the Holy Roman Empire in the attempt and priests at many times had undue influence BUT ultimately they failed.

      Priest rule only came to the West with the Progressive era and the 1st world war.

    • Shlomo says:

      You guys must be too thick to realize you’ve been trolled. Goyblatt should have been a clue. But if you want to be ruled over by priests, by all means join a cult and give them all your shekels.

      About the science question, read about Galileo. I’m not going to spoon feed you. That’s the trouble with you millennials you want everything given to you.

      • alf says:

        What is the definitive reactionary take on Galileo anyway?

        • Theshadowedknight says:

          He was a fucking asshole who was on his way to getting slapped down hard by his peers for being a dick, then the Church took and ill-advised stance on science, he attacked a powerful, influential man who was a friend of his, and power slapped him down first. The result is that he was martyred for “science” when in reality he was slapped around for being a rude asshole. If the Church had not gotten involved in declaring the truth of this world and stuck to the next world, then he would be a forgotten nobody today.

          • The Cominator says:

            He would be less well known to normies (ala Kepler) but not a total unknown.

            A better way to say what the reactionary take on Galileo should be is that the Galileo affair shows the evil of peer review, and that peer review is the reintroduction of the church and in some cases (HBD, the woman question) the inquisition into science.

            • jim says:

              Galileo was not tortured. He got his books suspended and was put under house arrest.

              Which is similar to being deplatformed, demonetized, and losing your job. Which has happened to no end of scientists who attempted to apply the scientific method to global warming, and looks that it may well happen to any scientist that applies the scientific method to hydroxychloroquine.

              • The Cominator says:

                So would you agree with my view of the reactionary take on Galileo, that it shows the evil of peer review?

          • alf says:

            So basically, Galileo was right and the church f*cked up :-p

            • alf says:

              So pehaps, instead of calling Galileo a rude asshole, we should call his enemies in the church the rude assholes. The church was in the wrong.

              • jim says:

                It is appropriate to use argumentum ad baculum on questions of social technology, because what is being debated is apt to be cover stories for defection and one way cooperation.

                Whosoever uses that method on genuinely empirical questions, such as “is hydroxychloroquine effective”, or “does the earth go around the sun”, is the asshole.

            • jim says:

              As Saint Augustine said, Church will always fuck up when it sticks its oar into such matters.

              Church has to stick to stuff that is unfalsifiable, or demonstrably true.

              Since the proper earthly business of the Church is social and family cohesion, there is seldom reason to stick its oar into disputes about falsifiable earthly matters, other than to command that such debates be conducted with honesty and to forbid dishonest and illegitimate methods of argument. When the State Church gets involved, it, by its nature, ends up using Argumentum ad baculum, so the nature of quark, the size of human craniums, and whether the great barrier reef is thriving or dying, suddenly become moral issues, and discovering the wrong evidence is a sin.

            • Samuel Skinner says:

              The Church’s screw up was refusing to admit the earth went around the Sun until 1820.

              • alf says:

                It seems to me that the church has piled up many anti-scientific mistakes, which for some reason they have never been able to deal with. Galileo, Darwin, the theory of evolution… It all sounds radioactive to the catholic, but it shouldn’t.

                Perhaps it’s an example of the church falling into the trap of becoming the stereotype their enemy portrays them as? Whatever it is, this anti-scientific attitude is a prime reason for modern Christianity being low status.

                • Mike says:

                  It’s more than just a reason for it being low-status, it was a main point of attack for progs against Christianity (well to be specific more so Catholicism and Orthodoxy) in the past, and is probably part of the reason that liberals like to claim “science” as their own today. Do you think progressives only attacked the Church as bigoted, sexist, racist, hierarchical; whatever insult they could come up with? No, one of the main criticisms leveled at Christianity throughout the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries was that it was “superstitious” and inhibited the growth of “rationalism” and “free-thought.” Liberals looked at the Eucharist, Extreme Unction, Marian Processions, praying to Patron Saints and just saw backwardness. They saw the religious trusting in these devotions as ultimately futile and superstitious because you then never actually solved the problem you were trying to fix. Want to stop your kids from dying at age 3? Pray to a patron saint! Don’t actually demand new and improved medical facilities or procedures, just trust that the prayer which still results in 60% of your newborns dying will work!

                  This viewpoint still has a very strong hold on people.

                • jim says:

                  > Whatever it is, this anti-scientific attitude is a prime reason for modern Christianity being low status.

                  No, it is the primary legitimate justification for Christianity being low status. The primary reason is that old type Christianity is red pilled. It was not science that got Phil Robertson in trouble. Science (real science, what science was before Harvard got on top of the Royal society) was on Phil Robertson’s side.

                • alf says:

                  No, it is the primary legitimate justification for Christianity being low status. The primary reason is that old type Christianity is red pilled. It was not science that got Phil Robertson in trouble.

                  Of course, but that doesn’t change my point. As long as Christians recoil in terror when hearing Galileo and Darwin mentioned as much as Merkel recoils when seeing the German flag, Christianity has little chance of making a comeback.

                • jim says:

                  Yes, people who recoil from science, real science from the days that science was great, are on the wrong side, are enemies of Gnon.

                  God operates primarily through what the ancients called material and effective causation, and moderns call cause and effect, chance and necessity.

                  It was divinely prophesied that if the Israelites collectively violated the commandments, they would be expelled from Israel. They violated the commandments, Jewing God by strictly observing the letter of the law in ways that violated the spirit and intent of the commandments, and, by massively violating the commandments, pissed off their neighbors, among them the Romans. Cause and effect. And because they were terribly self righteous about their violation of the commandments, one thing led to another. Chance and necessity. And the Romans expelled them.

            • Theshadowedknight says:

              No, he wasn’t right. He was ignoring evidence that he was wrong because he wanted to be the first to prove the earth orbited the sun. He wasn’t the first, but he wanted to be known as the first. He was a plagiarizer and a prick. His fault was that he was a rude asshole.

              Then the Church went and fucked up by taking a stance on temporal rather than eternal reality. Eternal reality, being unfalsifiable, is fine to take a stance on. Temporal reality often is falsifiable, and thus no solid stance either way should be taken. That was how the Church fucked up.

              Galileo needed to be handled. The Church just handled him the wrong way. If they had done something along the lines of punishing him for attacking the Church and for being an obnoxious shithead then problem solved, and they wouldn’t have given him what he sought: fame and notoriety.

              • alf says:

                Galileo rightly idolized Copernicus, whereas neither Gassi nor the church paid the founder of the scientific revolution any respect.

                You say the church has learned from its mistake by introducing temporal reality versus eternal reality.

                If I am correct Jim solves the problem by making Christ the logos.

                But I dunno. I get the strong impression many Christians have a lot of crimestop when it comes to dangerous thoughts like evolution. That’s just not going to fly.

                • Mike says:

                  If you peruse Zippy’s blog you can’t really disagree with this conclusion, even though he agrees with virtually everything else said here. Most of the posts under the “Naturalism” category are Evolution related, and all of them declare it false in some manner.

                • alf says:

                  I should add that a lot of this comes from watching Moldbug’s appeareance at Justin Murphy.

                  Moldbug argues that there’s three factions ruling the USA, and that he cannot imagine one faction dominating the other factions. He is trying to get hands from different factions to shake.

                  That Christians don’t accept vaccines, I’m OK with. But that they don’t accept evolution, it makes it so nobody wants to shake their hands.

                • Mike says:

                  Reminds me of the old Neo-Reactionary Trichotomy brought up by Spandrell and Nick Land years ago:
                  https://spandrell.com/2013/04/10/conflict/
                  http://www.xenosystems.net/trichotomy/

                  Being the:
                  1. Religious/traditionalists
                  2. Ethnic/nationalists
                  3. Techno-commercial/capitalists.

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  No, I am not saying the Church has learned. For the most part, it is too infected by progressives to learn such an idea. We understand the difference, and so we can correct things when the time comes.

                  However, the Christian crimestop to evolution comes from the manner in which it is argued and used. There are flaws with the theory of evolution that need to be addressed, but it, as all science, has become moral law and not natural law.

                  The world is round, there are 43 different genders, and evolution is real. Which are true? From the perspective of the people not used to having to do complicated political philosophy as a hobby, if one is false, all could be false. If you are willing to lie to me about something clearly, visibly, obviously false, can I be sure that you are telling the truth about the things I can’t see to verify? If you want Christians to stop suspecting science, then stop using it as a cudgel against them. We have seen the fruits of those who abandoned Christianity for “reason” and atheism, and it has been unbelievably bloody and unreasonable.

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  You dont know any Christian’s, do you, Alf? It’s pretty clear that you are talking about leftist caricatures of Christians and not the real deal.

                • alf says:

                  You dont know any Christian’s, do you, Alf?

                  You’d be surprised.

                  Perhaps American Christians are different. Dutch Christians, whether Katholiek or Gereformeerd, I know reasonably well.

                • Mike says:

                  > Perhaps American Christians are different.

                  That’s where you’d be wrong. The worst of the Creationists and their ilk all come from here.

                • jim says:

                  > > Perhaps American Christians are different.

                  > That’s where you’d be wrong. The worst of the Creationists and their ilk all come from here.

                  That is a myth, reflecting progressive hostility to flyover country. There are a lot of young earthers in flyover country, but anti science Christians are stronger in Europe.

                  It is just that American progressives love to tell us that Europe is so much more sophisticated than flyover country. It is not.

                  People who fly around the world are indeed more sophisticated, but people who fly around Europe, not so much.

                • alf says:

                  That’s where you’d be wrong. The worst of the Creationists and their ilk all come from here.

                  Yeah that’s about what I’d expect. But I don’t want to offend TSK any more 😁

                • alf says:

                  In Europe, Christians aren’t openly anti-scientific the way progs describe them either. But why is it that everywhere I go, be it offline, on Zippy’s blog, on Vox Day’s blog, and here, everywhere, Catholics flinch in terror when evolution is discussed, like Merkel flinches when German flags are waved.

                • Mike says:

                  Well in terms of numbers it may be more likely in the United States, hardline Creationists are typically Protestants and America has a lot of those. Would think it would be harder to find large amounts of Creationists in a historically Catholic or Orthodox country. Of course there are plenty of areas in Europe that are Protestant as well though so idk.

                  Also, Alf, regardless of debate over minor issues or semantics, Christianity historically was not a religion of cucks or “anti-science” (whatever that even means) and you damn well know that. Do you want to sound like a Reddit atheist who thinks the Dark Ages actually happened and that the French Revolution resulted in a flowering of knowledge? Because that’s what you’re going towards.

                • jim says:

                  There is a important reason why Christian nations founded science, and it is not only biological. Observe that Orthodox Jews don’t do science and technology – it is all atheist Jews and, back in the days before before peer review, conversos to progressivism. Religion has a huge and obvious effect. Muslims don’t do science, and Islam is multiracial, so it is not only mud blood that is stopping them. Islam has lots of whitish engineers, who are often quite good.

                  Christianity, rightly understood as Saint Augustine understood it, is fundamentally and radically supportive of science, and historically has provided the only environment in which science has thrived, none better than the State Christianity of Restoration England. Progressivism, like every other religion except Christianity, strangles science.

                  Everyone remembers that Galileo got deplatformed and demonetized, but no one remembers that The Enlightenment executed Antoine Lavoisier, the founder of modern chemistry, not to mention a pile of other scientists.

                  “La République n’a pas besoin de savants ni de chimistes;”

                  People are quick to come up with excuses and rationales for the murder of so many scientists, but there are way better excuses and rationales for the house arrest of Galieo

                • alf says:

                  I guess what I’m saying is this.

                  Moldbug in his talk makes many excellent points. But among them, I have failed to hear, and don’t expect to hear, is an argument to reinstate Christianity as state religion, à la Jim.

                  Why?

                  Well truly I’d want a debate between Yarvin and Jim. But absent that, my thought is that it very much resembles the reason Xiaopeng did not rename the Communist party the Capitalist party.

                • jim says:

                  Yarvin is making an effort to avoid being radioactive, hence no debate is possible.

                  Also, anything interesting or important is radioactive, hence Yarvin is unavoidably boring and uninformative, while Moldbug founded neo-reaction, largely by addressing issues so long forgotten that they were not all that radioactive.

                • Mike says:

                  Devil’s Advocate: If Christianity is the best and only refuge of science, why are atheist jews (as you attested Jim) good at it? Just Ashkenazi IQ?

                  Also as a side note, Classical Greece is a massive outlier outside of Christianity. What was it about Hellenic Paganism that enabled them to produce so much brilliance?

                • jim says:

                  Atheism does not prevent a man from doing good science as an individual, and it frees him from a belief system (such as Judaism) that would prevent doing good science, but it makes it difficult for the scientific community to do good science as a community.

                  A man who believes there is no God, is vulnerable to the belief that there is no truth.

                • jim says:

                  Christianity inherited its strength on science in substantial part from the Greek philosophers. Greek paganism is so alien to us, and so thoroughly dead, that it is hard to say what gave it power and insight when it was alive, but in the time of the early Christians, it was very much alive, and they treated it with a respect they gave to no others.

                • Mike says:

                  Indeed, it is hard to know why it worked so well when it is so far removed from us. It really is sad seeing how the Ottoman occupation destroyed the immense legacy of Greece. In all likelihood the only reason the ancient Greeks or Romans didn’t end up going to the moon is because they were too successful and dominated everyone else, rather than having an opportunity to compete and innovate with competent enemies.

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  Greeks didnt have that much science. They had some philosophy, but didnt do much development beyond mathematics. Egypt had very sophisticated engineering, as did Rome, but again, these weren’t developed that much. Even the Islamic world did more science than most, although I suspect that a lot of it was filtered through India or part of their European conquest, given what they have devolved into currently.

                  Christianity is the only religious system known to lead to consistent scientific and technological development. It is not as if the rest of these places didnt have the time, or even in some cases the inclination. Something was missing. That was Christianity, though which particular part I am unsure. As society has drifted away from Christianity, particularly among the elite, science has collapsed. Biology that is less accurate than a coin flip, let along the atrocity that is the priests in social sciences.

                • jim says:

                  > Greeks didnt have that much science.

                  The Antikythera mechanism reveals that they had a lot of science and technology that was lost and forgotten due to social decay.

                  Mostly we remember only the stuff that the Christians debated, which was philosophy, rather than science.

                  If it seems that the Greeks had theory without facts, that is likely because Christians found the facts of the empirical world boring and irrelevant, and did not bother copying them down.

                  The Antikythera mechanism was a great big pile of facts about the movements of objects in the sky embodied in physical hardware.

                  Mostly we remember only the stuff that the Christians debated, which was philosophy, rather than science.

                  If it was not of interest to Christianity, the pagan Greek book did not get copied. If it did not get copied, it perished.

                  The technology of the Antikythera mechanism indicates a least a fifteenth century technological level. Science got going in the thirteenth century, though it only became the state endorsed high status method of resolving empirical questions in the seventeenth century under Restoration Anglicanism.

                • Aldon says:

                  >Devil’s Advocate: If Christianity is the best and only refuge of science, why are atheist jews (as you attested Jim) good at it? Just Ashkenazi IQ?

                  You didn’t consider this third option: Jew Science is a meme pushed by hostile Kikes and their cuck enablers. The great Jew scientists you can who aren’t just populizers like Jerry Coyne were mongrels who were raised in a deeply White Christian culture.

                  >Also as a side note, Classical Greece is a massive outlier outside of Christianity. What was it about Hellenic Paganism that enabled them to produce so much brilliance?

                  http://archive.is/ryDkO

                  http://archive.is/IpsMD

                  http://archive.is/mOiCq

                  http://archive.is/arHKu

                  The Greeks didn’t have what you call science. The talk saying otherwise is just Enlightenment and later attempts to claim the Greeks (or Romans) and frame them as if they were just like modern fedora tipper consoomer sodomites.

                • Mike says:

                  Agree with your take on the Ashkenazis for the most part, they did grow up surrounded by white, Christian culture, especially once they were taken out of the Jewish Ghettos (because then that meant they were more exposed to the majority culture than they were in the Ghetto).

                  However the Romans, and even more so the Greeks did produce genuine scientific knowledge that mattered, even if they didn’t have the whole method down. And you have to think about the context as well. For the time period, the amount of investigation and discovery they were doing was enormous.

                • Aldon says:

                  > The Antikythera mechanism reveals that they had a lot of science and technology that was lost and forgotten due to social decay.

                  https://historyforatheists.com/2020/03/the-great-myths-8-the-loss-of-ancient-learning/

                  The mechanism you speak of was just a glorified calender. Nothing special. It being something special was just fedora fantasy peddled by science populizers and philosophical jokes like Science Negro and Anti-Christian A.C. Grayling who don’t engage with non-pozzed historical research.

                • jim says:

                  > The mechanism you speak of was just a glorified calender.

                  It was a mechanical computer that could predict eclipses. That is a lot more than a glorified calendar, and we did not have much in the way of mechanical clocks until the fifteenth century.

                  When did we build a clockwork mechanism that could predict eclipses?

                  The Antikythera mechanism reveals that they had a lot of science and technology that was lost and forgotten due to social decay.

                  We know that a vast amount of ancient learning was lost, because the Christian literature sometimes mentions gigantic counts of non fiction books, and all we have left is a handful. And that handful is mostly stuff that contains material relevant to debates on the Trinity.

                  Do you think that the ten thousand that were lost for each one that survived were just repeats of what is in the survivors?

                  Can you predict eclipses? Could you design a clockwork to predict eclipses?

                  The device displays the Egyptian calendar date and the Greek calendar date, but the objective is not to convert between calendars, but to predict the location of the moon and some of the planets on that date, in particular if the moon, earth, and sun are going to line up for an eclipse on that date.

                • Aldon says:

                  >However the Romans, and even more so the Greeks did produce genuine scientific knowledge that mattered, even if they didn’t have the whole method down. And you have to think about the context as well. For the time period, the amount of investigation and discovery they were doing was enormous.

                  So did China and Mesopotamia and Old Egypt. If we’re going to list every civilization of note. None of them have what you call “science” just as the Greeks didn’t.

                • jim says:

                  We have a pile of Chinese books – which in substantial part survived only because western pirates and soldiers stole them.

                  We know the Chinese did not have theory, that they had facts without theory.

                  We know the Greeks had theory, the Greeks alone had theory, and if we had more of their books, we would know that they had facts, because the Antikythera mechanism could only be produced by a people with both theory and facts, could only have been produced in an intellectual environment similar to that of fifteenth century Europe.

                  To produce a mechanism that predicts eclipses, you need a model of the motions of the sun and moon, not just a record of their motions, and you need to translate that model into brass. That is facts integrated with theory, science made manifest as technology.

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  Astronomy is the lowest branch of science, and there have been many cultures that managed a high level of astronomy without much else to show. The Mayans, for example, had detailed calendars of astronomical events, without developing much else.

                  An astronomical calculator is impressive, but that it indicates a level of technological progress of only about two-hundred years equivalent to Christian Europe. Given the timespan of the Greeks, they should have progressed more. In fairness, they may have, and we only found one of the more durable, rugged discoveries. They also had a much smaller population pool from which to draw, which is a hard limit to overcome. It is hard to tell.

                  Still, a significant amount of their mathematical knowledge was transferred. Even Babylon, a civilization about which fairly little is known managed to transmit their mathematical accomplishments to other peoples. What is so different about natural sciences as compared to math, that they would not survive?

                • jim says:

                  > The Mayans, for example, had detailed calendars of astronomical events, without developing much else.

                  The Mayans could predict eclipses, and they had copper, but their calendrical knowledge was not the kind of knowledge that could be translated into brass gears.

                  Calendrical knowledge that can be made manifest as brass gears is a very different kind of knowledge.

                  The Greeks alone had theory. The assertion is that they had theory without knowledge, while other civilizations had knowledge without theory. Seems unlikely.

                • Mike says:

                  Critiquing the Greeks as “not progressing fast enough” is fairly meaningless when you realize that the Christian Byzantines discovered little to nothing that the Ancient Greeks hadn’t already.

                  I use them as an example and not Christian Western Europe because Western Europe would have been an unfair example at the time. Their civilization had just collapsed so everything was utter chaos. But the Byzantines were still at their height and would be for a good while, and yet they did not do much of anything that wasn’t already based off of their forefathers in the Hellenic Greeks.

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  I’m not asserting that they had theory without knowledge, they clearly had both. When you are making calculations, you have to have a theoretical model in order to make those calculations. My argument is that we do not see that they moved past astronomy to physics or chemistry. There was a vast amount of knowledge out there that they could have found. They did develop science, they just did not take it very far. Perhaps they took it farther than we know and it was lost to social decay, but if so, why did their mathematics survive and not the rest?

                  I’m also not saying that only Christianity can do science, because as I have already pointed out, it has popped up around the world in several different periods, cultures, and at different levels. My contention is that Christianity does it best, hands down, and as the elite has abandoned Christianity, it has led to scientific decay. It is theoretically possible to identify the social technology in Christianity that encourages scientific study and transplant that into another religion, but since we have something that works, why not use it first?

                • jim says:

                  The Antikythera mechanism is approximately fifteenth century technology. How was fifteenth century science?

                  They had Galilean kinematics but not yet Newtonian physics. They had no chemistry, just alchemy. Not much advanced from what the Greeks had.

                  They had substantially better mathematics than the Greeks had, which was what made Galilean kinematics and Newtonian physics possible, but they had largely inherited that from the Indians, who had developed it before being conquered by Islam and going into stagnation. The Greeks were getting mighty close to integration and differentiation, which is how they calculated the value of pi, so they were pretty close to Newton’s mathematics, despite not having the advantage of India’s mathematics.

                  And yet is obvious that science had started, that science started in the thirteenth century.

                • Aldon says:

                  “muh evolution”

                  You all need to recognize the following:

                  A. What you call “evolution” was only really accepted at the time it was since it was useful as a weapon to kill opposition to what became Globohomo. Now that it served its role, nobody peddling it today (your Dicky Dawks, your Dan Dens, your Graylings, etc.) accepts all of its implications (namely that “racism” is desirable, faggotry is not in the genes, etc.).

                  B. Elements of it well predated Darwin. Epicurus for example advocated what would be called natural selection.

                  C. Natural selection depends ultimately on telos with the obvious implications it has for the universe.

                  D.

                • @Aldon

                  It’s true, I remember Oscar Wilde, the textbook Globohomo said “Evolution is an idea whose time has come.” And he did not care one bit about biology, it was all about interpreting it as political philosophy.

                  Yet, let’s not too be hung up around what evolution was in the 19th century, especially not before. The important part is that there is a decently growing understanding of human behavioral biology. This probably has more to do with more empirical stuff like genes and hormones, and evolution is only an explanation for how they happened to develop that way. And with transposons and everything it is getting murkier, see e.g.: https://voegelinview.com/evolution-2-0-by-perry-marshall/

                  I think the evolutionary aspect of our way of thinking just boils down to two things, but these two things have to be called evolutionary or Darwinist because there is no better term for them:

                  1) Human behavior is largely biologically fixed and not a result of social programming. You cannot attribute it to an immaterial soul either, because if you read some actually good theology, like Aquinas, you find that only the abstract-thinking part of the soul is immaterial, and our emotions are suchlike are all biological.

                  2) This was driven largely by socio-sexual selection, intra- and intergroup competition for wombs, it was not about food or predators.

                  This 2) is what you won’t find in Aquinas. This is basically the modern, Darwinist part, an explanation why human biological emotions are so damn hung up about sex and status.

                  The old time sages did understand how human nature is, like Augustine on the three libidos, the desire for sex, money and power, all closely related. But what was missing is the link how our biological emotions got that way.

                • jim says:

                  A lot of female behavior, notably shit tests and their incomprehensible response to rape and sexual harassment, can only be comprehended in terms of evolutionary psychology.

                  Women resist rape, but they go looking for it, and they find it, will not complain about it unless their resistance is succesful.

                • alf says:

                  Yarvin is unavoidably boring

                  I don’t know, I found his recent writing boring, but his talk was pretty darn interesting.

                  He approaches the same questions from a different angle. Even though there is stuff he predictably won’t touch, his thought processes are solid.

                • aswaes says:

                  @Aldon

                  The Hellenistic Greeks had a functioning scientific community.

                  The discovery of precession usually is attributed to Hipparchus (190–120 BC) of Rhodes or Nicaea, a Greek astronomer. According to Ptolemy’s Almagest, Hipparchus measured the longitude of Spica and other bright stars. Comparing his measurements with data from his predecessors, Timocharis (320–260 BC) and Aristillus (~280 BC), he concluded that Spica had moved 2° relative to the autumnal equinox. He also compared the lengths of the tropical year (the time it takes the Sun to return to an equinox) and the sidereal year (the time it takes the Sun to return to a fixed star), and found a slight discrepancy. Hipparchus concluded that the equinoxes were moving (“precessing”) through the zodiac, and that the rate of precession was not less than 1° in a century, in other words, completing a full cycle in no more than 36000 years.

                  Here, you see Hipparchus interacting with scientists that lived 2 centuries before him, thereby measuring an otherwise imperceptible astronomical phenomenon. They not only had a living community of competent astronomers, they had a deep, recorded tradition of it.

                  Aristotle is fully engaged in empirical science when he’s observing and cataloguing animals at Lesbos.

                  Eratosthenes’s accurate measurement of Earth’s circumference. How many Harvard grads can devise a primitive method for that? Can you do it without looking it up on wikipedia? That kind of scientific ingenuity doesn’t pop out of nowhere. They had libraries and institutions that recorded and transmitted genuine scientific tradition. They had a stack of scientific instruments.

                  Why did they fail?

                  They didn’t have a good way to represent numbers, so their math suffered. They didn’t have lenses. They didn’t have joint stock corporation, and so their techno-commercial feedback was much weaker (no industrialization, no rapid commoditization, no cheaply available standardized instruments and production techniques). They had slaves, so less incentive to develop productivity equipment. They didn’t have enough time to ignite an industrial-scientific revolution before they were terminally doomed from dysgenic fertility (gay bug) and loss of sovereignty. The Spartans respected their wahmen so they went extinct.

                  I am partial to the view that science is martial epistemology, developed by federated warriors who must discover reliable ways of reporting and testifying. Trust of and for your warrior peers depends on streamlining methods of ascertaining truth (hence the etymological root ‘tree’ for trust and truth).

                  Freehold and peerage is federation of landed warriors. They must evolve a tradition of deciding judicial questions in a distributed (non-despotic) setting. So they discover standards for judging testimony: logic of names, of inference, evidence, empirical tests, standard instruments for measurements, disproof (falsification), and parsimony. Statistics is the latest addition (refinement rather) to the evidentiary falsification stack.

                  @Alf
                  Irritable Darwin deniers usually suffer from statistical incompetence ( in full comical display by Teddy Spaghetti here ). (E Michael Jones, and Kevin Michael Grace, also come to mind: both verbally gifted, erudite, but innumerate irritable Catholics).

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  I stand corrected. I was thinking that some of the developments in physics and chemistry happened earlier than they did. Newton and Boyle made their discoveries in the seventeenth century, which are the roots of physics and chemistry, respectively, as well as attempts at codifying the scientific method. Now I am more curious about what causes science. What parts of Hellenistic society and what of Christian society reate the scientific impulse?

                • Atavistic Morality says:

                  When talking about technological development in ancient times, I think slavery should be strongly considered.

                  I’m sure Rome and Greece would have gone a lot further if they had had the need to create machines for production to pay for the orgies, instead of just jumping over the border and taking a new mil slaves to do the work while also fucking them.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Atavistic, hence why the worst idea in NRx by far is the idea that general purpose chattel slavery should be brought back. No good comes from distorting down the natural price of labor.

                  I could see turning the prog women into non hereditary concubine (who could NEVER rise to the station of wives) slaves though.

                • Mike says:

                  The problem I have with the slave hypothesis is that during the Age of Discovery and the consequent scientific boom the European Empires engaged in more slavery than they had in the previous thousand years and yet produced a lot of good science.

                • jim says:

                  That the South was backward relative to the North supports the slavery hypothesis. Instead of owning wealth creating ideas, and attracting talented employees by enabling the creation of wealth, the able and ambitious wound up owning slaves.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “The problem I have with the slave hypothesis is that during the Age of Discovery and the consequent scientific boom the European Empires engaged in more slavery than they had in the previous thousand years and yet produced a lot of good science.”

                  It was mostly limited to the colonies, there were not masses of slaves within Europe.

                • Aldon says:

                  Aswaes: Look, we went over this already. The Greeks didn’t have what we call science. No one’s denying their accomplishments. I’m hardly peddling a new interpretation since that’s what the author of God’s Philosophers noted.

                  As for Vox Day, he’s just an aged nerd LARPing as an Injun.

                • jim says:

                  Science only became the high status method of resolving factual arguments in seventeenth century, immediately after the restoration, but science existed starting in the thirteenth century, though it had not accomplished a whole lot until Newton in the seventeenth century.

                  But it certainly existed in the fifteenth century. The Antikythera mechanism is at the technological level of the fifteenth century, and required the kind of scientific knowledge and thinking that existed in the fifteenth century.

                  To build it, you had to have a model of the motions of the sun, moon and stars, not just have a collection of arbitrary rules, and be able to translate that model into brass gears.

                  If you can translate your model into brass, the model exists at a higher level of thinking than a pile of rules of thumb. It is a scientific model.

                  Fifteenth century technology was produced by a society that had scientific thinking, and I don’t think that any society that did not have scientific thinking could produce fifteenth century level technology.

                • aswaes says:

                  > we went over this already

                  No you posted a bunch of links, pejoratives, and strawmen memes (“muh negro science man”, yeah, nobody cares, this is not reddit). You made no arguments whatsoever. If you believe a link, or a book supports your thesis, construct the argument cited and summarize the evidence. Then, you need to refute Jim’s and my argument.

                  To recapitulate my argument:

                  One does not stumble upon records of two century old scientific data that enable detection of minute alterations, unless (a) one is looking for it (theorizing), and (b) there’s a functioning tradition of scientific inquiry and records. Like imagine if I’m trying to figure out the behavior of tide near where I live. I want to see what it was doing a century or two ago. If nobody was interested in (1) observing, (2) formatting (quantify/metrics), (3) recording, (4) indexing and archiving (make it searchable) tidal patterns, I’m shit out of luck. The fact that people bothered paying attention, recording, inventing and perpetuating specialized instruments and metric formats, and then preserving and indexing records, demonstrates a research culture.

                  Secondly, Eratosthenes’ case demonstrates an early version of the mindset that did this and this.

                  And of course Jim is right. Antikythera mechanism is the “5 sigma” artifact (if not a hoax) that evidences a techno-scientific culture. If you find the remains of a Ford Model T, you can infer that there existed a culture of technical excellence that, as a matter of casual practice, designed and produced things like ball bearings.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Did the Greeks in general (of the golden age of Greece) have a tradition akin to science/natural philosophy… maybe maybe not.

                  Did Greek Alexandria under the Ptolemies have a scientific tradition, almost certainly yes. The fact that Eratosthenes was something like a professor at the Great Library meant that he wasn’t an isolated individual.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

                  Old Erastosthenes would fit right in with Newton and his lesser contemporaries in the Royal Society.

                • Aldon says:

                  >No you posted a bunch of links

                  Which go over how the Greeks didn’t have science. I’ll quote:

                  >Aristarchus did not suggest a heliocentric earth because of a close study of the facts of planetary motions, but because fire was nobler than earth and the center was a nobler position than the periphery. Ergo… There are many names for that kind of reasoning, but “scientific” is not one of them. Democritus’ “atoms” were an assumption, not a conclusion based on or confirmed by observable facts. Lucky guesses are not science, either. Otherwise, we would credit Jonathan Swift with the discovery of the Martian moons.

                  >The Chinese had facts without theories; the Greeks had theories without facts. If you don’t have both a posteriori and a priori, you don’t have your science yet.”

                  >Science in the modern sense is the effort to devise physical theories that account for the metrical properties of physical bodies. Thus, when we speak of the “rise of science,” we do not mean mathematics (which works with ideal bodies), tinkering/invention, nor the mere accumulation of facts and rules of thumb, even if retrospectively those things look sorta scientificalistic to us. Nor do we include the social “sciences,” whose objects are human beings rather than natural physical bodies.

                  >The emergence of modern Science depends upon the development of natural laws and physical theories. But scholars must believe that natural laws are possible before they will look for them. Historically, obstacles to belief in the lawfulness of nature have included:

                  “Belief in a multitude of self-willed gods. No dependable laws of nature are possible if sundry gods might intervene in the world to contrary purposes. Venus overrules Mars or Poseidon countermands Hera. When inanimate objects – stars, trees, rivers – are creatures capable of aims, emotions, and desires, the search for scientific laws would be in vain. As Brian Stock writes, “[the Roman’s] daily experience led him to believe that nature’s forces could be imitated, even placated; he was less sure they could be understood” (Stock, 1978).”

                  “Belief in the absolutely autonomy of God. When even the act of handwriting is ascribed to God’s direct intervention, “laws of nature” can be no more than “habits of God,” and the reasons for them cannot be comprehended. Therefore, the search for scientific laws would be in vain.”

                  “Belief in an infinite sequence of cyclic universes. If the cosmos and its repetitive mutations are eternal, all possibilities must eventually come to be, and scientific “laws of nature” are at best temporary concatenations with no universal significance.”

                  >Science arose in the West because these impediments were mitigated or absent as a matter of culture.

                  As for the rest, stick to the Richy Dawk.

                • jim says:

                  All your philosophers come from well before the Antikythera mechanism. An equally plausible argument could be made that thirteenth century science was not science. But in retrospect, quite obviously thirteenth century science was the start of science, and Newton and Boyle were unambiguously in that tradition, resting on thirteenth century shoulders. We see thirteenth century science as science not because it had accomplished anything obviously scientific, but because of its seventeenth century fruits.

                  But the Antikythera mechanism is the equivalent of fifteenth century technology, and Greek philosophers closer to that period, in particular Eratosthenes, were clearly scientists.

                  > As for the rest, stick to the Richy Dawk.

                  Dawkins has brain damage caused by progressivism. His crimestop adversely affects his capacity to reason.

                • aswaes says:

                  Let’s go through your arguments in order of appearance.

                  (1) Hypothesis or theory construction is an arational process. You can’t judge scientificity by how the theory in question came about (which is basically glorified free association).

                  Scientific method:
                  0- free association
                  1- candidate hypothesis
                  2- test hypothesis:
                  (a) logic (grammatical correctness),
                  (b) empirical (construct instruments and measure predictions),
                  (c) identify limits and scope (when the hypothesis fails),
                  (d) market for recipes (parsimony, test of time, compatibility w/ other paradigms)
                  3- (assuming hypothesis survives to this point) reorganization of names (categories) and instruments
                  4- (re)identification of facts
                  5- free association [return to step 0]

                  (2) the Greeks had theories without facts
                  This is obviously false. Greeks were autistic cataloguers (Aristotle’s biology, a long list of geographers, catalogue of astronomical facts, natural historians).

                  (3) [mathematics] works with ideal bodies
                  This is not too relevant but it’s a misconception nevertheless. Mathematics exhibits all aspects of the scientific method, including empiricism and instrument construction (algorithms). It is just higher up the abstractness (generalizability) ladder of recipes. Newtonian Mechanics is a meta-recipe for, among other things, constructing mechanical recipes (literal machines). Mathematics creates general recipes about measurement. But you only needed such meta-recipes to test recipe candidates you want to use in the real world. Which is to say, (a) the motivating origin of all useful mathematics is ultimately empirical facts, and (b) mathematics is an epistemological endeavor only to the extent that it is translatable to discrete human operations.

                  (4) Nor do we include the social “sciences”
                  Well, that’s an incomplete view of science. If you can make predictive/retrodictive rules about something, it is under the purview of science. Behavioral genetics, and especially psychometrics are exemplary sciences. Francis Galton improved the scientific method itself (statistical methods) just so he could practice them. I would also add evo psych and economics to the list. Social sciences in general are concerned with identifying natural laws of human cooperation, and their raison d’etre is to provide recipes for Law (judicial decidability) proper.

                  (5) self-willed gods […] nature’s forces could be imitated, even placated
                  Sure, superstition exists in all societies that we know of. The lower and middle classes believe what they must to cope with the fact of their epistemic limits. For instance, if you can’t understand calculus (sub ~115IQ), you can’t understand statistics, and I wouldn’t blame you for employing authoritarian epistemology as a heuristic of last resort. And we can see superstition, animism, supernaturalism were not consensus among upper classes because they complained about it.

                  (6) autonomy of God
                  The Ghazali Question is interesting. In my opinion, his role in extinguishing any hope of naturalism in Islam is vastly overstated by philosophers who overestimate the consequentiality of their own profession. I think Arabs and Persians just got too dumb and feral due to (a) cousin marriage, (b) negrification from slaves, and plain old (c) dysgenic fertility. Islam was the national myth of a people already too dumb and herd-like for science, and coasted on remnant genetic capital of other civilizations.

                  (7) no universal significance
                  Universalism is a pretension that has nothing to do with science. We all live in a local time and a local space: our epistemology is hard bounded by the limits of our interactions.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  The posts by @aswaes are a very smart compression of insights crystallized over a long period of time and thought, into relatively short texts. I don’t know what exactly he meant by science as a warrior communication protocol but the rest is good enough to compel some thought on what it might mean even if he doesn’t explain further.

                  The Vox Day thread is interesting not for the math debate but as an indication of the math-IQ distribution of his commenters. Looks like a percent or two get the math on their own and a fraction of that also have some inkling of the statistical issues (e.g., that it’s a sampling problem, not straight up probability).

                • aswaes says:

                  Martial epistemology.

                  Warrior types observably have a lower tolerance for bullshit and wordy bamboozlement. Real talk is war room talk. Why?

                  (1) Incentives. Skin in the game really does change things. When you risk life and limb, demand for “what works” outweighs all other considerations.

                  Iron criterion of human decisions: “Will this increase or lower my status if I accept it?” Remarkably, a significant portion of humans will choose even death over accepting major loss of status. As long as man doesn’t face a clear and present danger, he’ll build mountains of bullshit and declare the peaks “high status”.

                  (2) Genetic intuition. Incentives are limited by genetic intuition. Women will never value truth above status no matter how fashionable you make it. Some people are better constituted to tell the truth regardless of status considerations. I believe the evolutionary pressure that selects for this, comes from a particular type of pack ecology.

                  A pack is a joint venture for hunting booty. A competitive ecology of packs, wherein packs form and dissolve dynamically, selects for
                  – pack members (warriors) with a stronger instinct (probably exaptation on disgust) for (a) honesty (trustworthiness), (b) detecting defection, (c) disliking and aggressively punishing (even at negative personal utility) defection,
                  – (d) an extended phenotype (social technology) that enhances (b) and (c), rewards (a),
                  – pack members with (e) a stronger drive for glory (higher reward anticipation for taking personal risk in hunt).

                  Instinct for honesty is measurable and varies by race [link], class, and gender (women lie to each other with compliments, men inform each other with teasing insults).

                  Let me expand on (d). A crucial aspect of warrior pack culture is objectivity. It’s a tendency to look for, and construct tests that are not subjective, but independently verifiable. See a despot doesn’t have to resort to “demonstrations”. But when you have a balance of powers situation wherein parties have the ability to exit or to retaliate, they favor subject-invariant tests that minimize arbitrariness. “Reason” is the virtualization of combat (an objective test) for resolving conflicts.

                  Not only objectivity is a pareto optimum (nobody can disagree to it w/o worsening another’s position), it is also a measure against self-deception, and so a cultural norm of objectivity selects for instinctual honesty.

                  Out of this cultural-genetic organ of truth and trust, evolves the tradition of measuring everything against everything else. Not only scores are settled on the basis of calculation, but the calculation method itself is measured against other possible methods. Underlying cultural current is that despotic decisions are disgusting, so there must not only be a way of objectively deciding decisions, but also a way of deciding ways themselves of decisions and so on recursively.

                  Of course this is not enough. If you have the ‘objectivity’ instinct, but not inventiveness, you get Rome. Divert warrior’s lust for glory (heroism) to excellence in craft, and the techno-scientific loop is complete.

                  (i) The extension of kin trust brought about by boreal outbreeding, (ii) dynamic geography created by wagons and horse (mobile homes, mobile subsistence: pastoralism, exit), and (iii) state of the martial technology favoring agile, maneuver-proficient band of warriors, created a dynamic ecology of competing packs. This was the Yamnaya culture. Some of their descendants settled Greece and founded federations of landed warriors. They discovered natural law as a codification of their cultural practices. Electrum coins as a general measure of value and property. Their adoption of alphabet reduced the cost of recording, measuring and relaying information by another order of magnitude. Consequent explosion in prosperity and their cultural instinct to integrate freshly available information under general measures, resulted in the flowering of a scientific culture.

                  The Anglo-Saxon-Norman Britain reinvented and perfected scientific method, because they were an updated version of the Yamnaya cowboys: commercially savvy pirates. Once self-righteousness as a means of seeking glory was prohibited, and once the war-band mindset was commercialized via joint-stock corporation, techno-scientific ignition happened. It was possible to export the scientific revolution to Scandinavia, France, and Germany, because same Yamnaya ancestors.

                • Atavistic Morality says:

                  aswaes you should post more, this is excellent. Are you perhaps acquainted with neoabsolutist circles?

                • aswaes says:

                  Thanks.

                  I used to read Reactionary Future via Xenosystems links. I followed Adam’s Generative Anthropology blog for a while. A couple of Curt’s disciples later switched to Neoabsolutism and colonized Dicky Spencer’s easily impressed mind. I saluted RF’s obstinacy in following a research program as a fellow sperg, but his shtick gets stale real fast. Adam is an intelligent and curious guy but the generative anthropology tradition in which he works limits him. PoMo was cancer when the left invented it, and it’s cancer when guys like Imperius use it to output verbal diarrhea with minimal insight.

                  As far as I can tell, there’s one core insight the Neoabsolutists draw from, and it’s Jouvenel’s patronage theory (high uses the low against the middle). Moldbug drew our attention to Jouvenel’s power theory, and it percolated across the dissident right. I favor clean, concise analytic styles of Jim and Spandrell with special emphasis on status and WQ.

                • Atavistic Morality says:

                  I thought so.

                  I mentioned it because your slightly more scientific/formal speech reminded me of reading Gans, perhaps Curt as well, though you’re far more communicative. I’ve always found them interesting and there’s potential, at the very least they are far better and closer to me than the “alt-right”, but it seems it’s all wasted on extreme autism. It’s almost like a bunch of dark acolytes from a mystic cult reveling on their secret obscure texts.

                  As you say, I also think Jim’s concise and straight to the point style is far better to reach people and actually have an effect.

                • Oak says:

                  @aswaes

                  Interesting theory. I’ve long thought that truth-seeking gene must have something to do with bravery or courage, or some further desire to conquer, what BAP calls the piratical spirit. IQ is simply not enough.

                  Lots of very high IQ women and East Asians but they don’t tend to innovate or have many original ideas. Both groups also tend to be very credentialist and hence status-seeking (and lack the truth-seeking gene, as confirmed by study you linked).

                  This may also explain why academia has massively underperformed as a source of innovation and invention. It’s too high status, often attracts the wrong people. Taleb has a great chapter in antifragile on how the industrial revolution and almost every scientific discipline were pioneered by amateurs, especially British clergymen. They had ‘soul in the game’ – a pure and sincere concern for the truth and nothing else. Other disciplines too (Bayes, Malthus).

                  Would also help explain the accelerating decline in art and science since WW1. Not only did it disproportionately take out high-IQ men, but braver men were more likely to die (and volunteer in the first place).

                • jim says:

                  Being right when everyone around you is wrong takes balls.

              • The Cominator says:

                Masses of slaves are probably also a big part of what caused the civil wars of the Late Roman Republic.

                If the social tensions of the Late Republic began with the Gracchi quite reasonable to assume that masses of slaves causing mass unemployment had a lot to do with it which led to speeches like this…

                “The Wild beasts of Italy have their caves to retire to, but the brave men who spill their blood in her cause have nothing left but air and light. Without houses, without settled habitations, they wander from place to place with their wives and children; and their generals do but mock them when, at the head of their armies, they exhort their men to fight for their sepulchers and the gods of their hearths, for among such numbers perhaps there is not one Roman who has an altar that has belonged to his ancestors or a sepulcher in which their ashes rest. The private soldiers fight and die to advance the wealth and luxury of the great, and they are called masters of the world without having a sod to call their own. – Tiberius Gracchus”

                I personally would not think of myself as a leftist if I did not want to compete with slave labor and wanted it curtailed and what Tiberius Gracchus said there probably would have had a lot of appeal to me…

                • Mike says:

                  On the other hand you could easily swap out that speech of Gracchus with any number of other leftist speeches and the general message and tone remains exactly the same.

                  -Resentment against the wealthy? Check.
                  -Thinking that your hard work only exists to advance some merchant cabal’s interests? Check.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Yes but the resentment against the wealthy did not previously exist so much in Rome (there was very early Republic political resentment against the Patricians) it mostly began when the former soldiers of the war against Carthage (mostly drawn from the Roman Middle class as Rome made only sporadic call ups of the “Head Count” before Marius) to find that what did they get fighting and winning the war… they lost their job to a North African slave worker.

                  That leads to very well justified resentment by people who otherwise would be naturally right wing (middle class smallholding war veteran farmers), and that is why you do not want masses of slaves (or mass 3rd world immigration).

                • jim says:

                  Slavery is cheap immigrant labor, which obviously undermines social cohesion. It is a financial incentive to bring in hostile outsiders.

                  Most slaves, or their descendants, eventually get freed, so the Romans gradually ceased being free.

                  Slavery is the right way to deal with people who are disinclined to work for a living, or so untrustworthy as to be unemployable. I estimate that about one third of American blacks need to be re-enslaved, a much smaller proportion of African blacks, and a miniscule proportion of whites.

                  The segregation solution worked. We forced the better blacks to remain with their brethren, and gave them the necessary power and authority to keep them in line.

              • @jim

                >That the South was backward relative to the North supports the slavery hypothesis.

                Different climate, weather, the South was more suitable for cash-crop agriculture. Notice how industrialization happened both in America and Europe in the northern, cooler climates, not the southern, hotter climates. Industrialization depended on coal mining, which apparently correlates with such climates, because IDK maybe that is where most of the prehistoric dinos and trees that turned into fossil fuels lived.

                Slave labor seems to me a function of agriculture, which is itself a function of climate.

              • Encelad says:

                To be fair, the “war of sexes” described on the Selphish Gene, along with Dove- Hawk equilibrium described in the same book, is a good start for understanding the Red Pill and the reason why cooperate-cooperate equilibrium is difficult to keep. It was a rational counter-argument to the “people sharing all the word” insanity. But that was 1976. Now, if you read Dawkins’ social media he behaves like a good progressive megaphone, like if he had never written those things and never believed in them.

                • jim says:

                  “The Selfish Gene” was a great, and full of powerful insights, but since then, as leftism has gone ever more stupid, so has Richard Dawkins.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “The Lucifer Principle” by Howard Bloom is another book like that from someone who at least pretends to be left wing…

              • @aswaes

                How does free association generate a candidate hypothesis? Something is missing. Look here. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/abduction/peirce.html

                • aswaes says:

                  There’s no algorithm guaranteed to find a good hypothesis candidate. It’s way finding in the dark. You basically acquaint yourself really hard with the problem and related work, and hope for the best. Usually, you let your black box brain reorganize during sleep and let it “reveal” a candidate solution to you. It’s similar to learning an instrument, or a motor skill: each practice->sleep iteration noticeably improves muscle memory.

                  What probably happens during sleep: your brain plays against itself many times by using the memory generated during actual practice to construct a new, specialized, intelligent module. That module is (newly acquired) ‘intuition’. Suddenly, you can play the guitar without consciously thinking about hitting each note. There’s a new module that does it automatically for you. Your attention talks to the intuition machine now, instead of talking to the subcomponents of the machine (finger motor). And now, previously impossible tasks are within reach because the machine increased your productivity. (There’s probably an apt analogy to capitalism’s roundabout production in there.)

                  What Pierce calls ‘abduction’ seems to be ‘let your imagination run wild’. Some strains of weed induce this abductive style of thinking, which can result in paranoia. Taking long walks to flood your brain with endorphins, using psychedelics or hallucinogens, feeding your subconscious by talking to your colleagues, or mountain biking may help also, I hear.

            • pdimov says:

              Galileo was right for the wrong reasons. The church didn’t fuck up. It made a rule that natural science matters should be outside the church’s purview, and vice versa. As long as a scientist observed the “vice versa” part, he was free to do science.

          • jim says:

            Galileo was an asshole, and his assholery undermined the cohesion of the scientific community, which invited the Church to step in, since cohesion is part of its earthly mission. Unfortunately the Church blundered by taking a position on empirical questions, rather than the way those questions were being explored.

            He correctly intuited that the Tychonian position was false, but the evidence at that point was not compelling. He had, however, demonstrated that Ptolmiac position was false.

            The Church would have been correct to suppress him for using illegitimate methods of argument against the Tychonian position, but that is not what they did. As a result, to their eternal discredit, they were stuck with the sun going around the earth all the way to 1820.

            • alf says:

              A blunder it has to stop repeating.

              Every catholic I ever debated this with about reacted to the words Galileo, Darwin or the theory of evolution as if I had said something radioactive. That sour face, that ‘oooh do you have to go there’ expression.

              • alf says:

                Moldbug argues that there has to be some kind of working alliance between ruling factions of the USA. Red state cannot rule alone, needs blue state.

                Red state has to incorporate science into its state religion, otherwise no one will accept 1633’s Christianity.

                • The Cominator says:

                  There is no such thing as half a demon worshipper.

                  Progressivism has to be eliminated as the state church or the lunancy spiral will continue, there is no compromise possible with demon worshippers.

                • alf says:

                  demon worship? What are you going on about.

                  I don’t care even if Galileo had horns growing out of his head. He shit-tested the church, the church failed the shit-test.

                  As long as Christians cannot accept the L on science and figure something out, I don’t see Christianity being reinstalled as state religion. Too much anti-Christian sentiment, with too many good reasons.

                • I want to do away with the word “science”. It’s now the name of a religion, the religion of peer review that legitimizes leftism. We have old but perfectly good words for the same thing: natural law, natural philosophy, and natural history. The “scientific method” is the process by which natural law and history are discovered. If I had my way, the word “science” would never be used without “method” immediately following, and using capital-S “Science” would be grounds for suspicion of heresy.

                  Our thoughtsphere has already succeeded in reconciling natural law and natural history with Christian scripture and moral teaching, which matters for the smart people who need to practice the scientific method, but the average man possesses no grasp of the scientific method whatsoever; for him, Science has replaced Religion as his society’s mystery cult that produces favorable outcomes through impenetrable procedures that curry favor with a sacred truth, and it has done this purely on the basis of status dynamics.

                • alf says:

                  I want to do away with the word “science”. It’s now the name of a religion, the religion of peer review that legitimizes leftism. We have old but perfectly good words for the same thing: natural law, natural philosophy, and natural history. The “scientific method” is the process by which natural law and history are discovered.

                  Perhaps ‘science’ has become too loaded. The scientific method sounds good.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Progressives/blue state faction worhip demons im pro Galileo.

            • > Unfortunately the Church blundered by taking a position on empirical questions

              I don’t think they did. My source is Koestler’s Sleepwalkers.

              But if he got it right (and he did translate some Italian texts nobody before bothered translating) it was more like:

              Church: “Nice model. Any empirical evidence?”
              G.: “Nope.”
              C.:”Then teach it as a model, a mathemathical tool, not as truth.”
              G.:”Sure.”
              Goes on teaching it as truth anyway.
              (…later…)
              C.: “Hey dude you promised it!”
              G.: “I have empirical evidence now.”
              C.: “Such as?”
              G.: “One tide per day.”
              C.: “Everybody knows it is two tides per day. Try harder. And what about comets? If everything is revolving in perfectly circular orbits, why do we see them so rarely?”
              G.: “Comets don’t real. Just some optical illusion in the athmosphere. And here I just wrote a book about new evidence.”
              C.:” Yeah. Arguments, not empirical evidence. Arguments based on the Aristotelean model of movement that you yourself debunked a while ago. Try harder.”

              • jim says:

                I don’t think this is accurate, but supposing it is accurate, the effect was that the church committed itself to the sun revolving around the earth for centuries.

                Which made Christianity and Christians look like idiots, and did not make Galileo look like an idiot.

                It is no good telling us that Galileo was an idiot. He was not an idiot, but supposing that he was, the Church by opposing him on empirical issues wound up committing itself to an idiotic doctrine as official truth for centuries.

          • alf says:

            This author tells me that Galileo was right for the wrong reasons, therefore Galileo was wrong. 🤪

            • jim says:

              Galileo was right for the right reasons, but was apt to use illegitimate forms of argument.

              Which are a legitimate reason for Church intervention, but instead the Church intervened on an empirical issue rather than the way in which it was being argued – and inevitably, if you intervene on potentially falsifiable questions about which smart people disagree, you wind up being in the wrong at least half the time, and usually more than half, because the Church is in the business of consensus, and if you intervene in favor of consensus against the empirical method, you are going to be on the wrong side all of the time.

              If you see someone appeal to consensus against the empirical method, you can be very sure he is wrong, and reasonably conclude he probably knows he is wrong, that he is saying things he perceives as high status, or is saying things for external authority and payment, with disregard for truth.

      • Aldon says:

        >You guys must be too thick to realize you’ve been trolled. Goyblatt should have been a clue. But if you want to be ruled over by priests, by all means join a cult and give them all your shekels.

        We’re ruled over by men who tells us it’s okay to chop your dick and that it’s okay to let Kunta Kinte into your country.

        >About the science question, read about Galileo. I’m not going to spoon feed you. That’s the trouble with you millennials you want everything given to you.

        The Boomer hatred for his society’s traditions will never cease to make me wonder. Anyway, lay off the Richard “Nationalism is Bad” Dawkins.

      • The Cominator says:

        I took him super serial like Al Gore and Manbearpig.

  13. ERTZ says:

    I think you are a bit on the wrong track.
    If I were in power, I would do most things as they are done now.

    For example,
    I would use public and secret government resources to protect and encourage leftists,
    especially in education (“Harvard”).
    I would make sure they feel safe, and try to indoctrinate the young – the safer and more supported/protected they feel,
    the more overconfident they will become, the more open they will be leftist and crazy, the more unfair they will treat
    students who seem not pro-leftist, the more they will come out of hiding!

    I would do this to make sure leftists never ever get true power.

    This is how I think it works:

    It’s sub-optimal to openly indoctrinate the young into anti-leftist beliefs.
    If they are told in class how evil leftists are, hear about communist mass murders and the dysfunctional incentives of the socialist economy, are made to write essays about leftists’ atrocities etc., this will NOT simply produce true anti-leftist beliefs in students;
    instead, lefties will become “cool”, that is, high status in the young population, because exactly not doing and believing as they are ordered to is a typical trait of the youth;
    they seek defiance of the older generations, they seek to mock their teachings.

    By allowing, even supporting, leftists to try to indoctrinate students, and publicly somewhat hiding the evils of leftism, two groups will result:

    1.
    Those who are stupid and cannot think for themselves, and who will believe the lies. They are leftists to begin with,
    or will just believe what they are told – these people will usually not amount to much in life, and can be ignored.
    Probably they can serve as living examples for some others to demonstrate the evil and craziness of leftism.

    2.
    Those who are smart and can think for themselves will gather their own information – those will be disgusted at the leftist lies, all the more as they have figured it out “by themselves” (it is secretly made sure they will find material to learn the truth if they seek it – dissipated all over the net, libraries etc.).
    Humans value information and insights they have worked for or figured out themselves as more significant and valuable, it more strongly becomes the basis for their beliefs.
    Realizing they have been lied to, manipulated, by their leftist teachers, they will grow distrustful and hateful of leftism and leftists in general and for the rest of their lives.
    This is highly significant, because mostly only this group – the really smart students – will make it into positions of power and influence in the future, therefore fortifying the higher rungs of society with anti-leftism.

    By pushing leftists and leftism into education, by half-heartedly making leftism politically correct, by providing information subtly so that students may learn the truth, the defiance instinct of the youth is exploited to produce hatred of leftism in those who would not develop such a hatred on their own.

    Promoting leftism is a method to vaccinate future functional elites against leftism.

    That they are expected to publicly keep quiet about the evils of leftism, that they are forced to resent leftism and leftists in secret, makes their disgust/hostility to it even fiercer, adding to their ideological vaccination’s power.

    Leftism cannot be fought openly – it would look like oppression, unfairness, “fascism” – all the things the left tells us are true would for most people look all the more true.
    Instead, leftists must be fought by making them into useful idiots for their own self-sabotage.

    Another example:
    If one keeps leftist politicians that are charismatic and talented out of politics by force – by oppressing them,
    killing them, having them more often health issues and accidents than seems statistically normal – we would strengthen them in public opinion.
    Instead, it is made sure that the most crazy, incompetent and perhaps uncharismatic leftists rise to the top spots of their political parties and organizations:
    Killing/crippling prospective talented leftist political talents would be illegal, more importantly it would look bad publicly;
    but instead using all the secret resources of the state to SUPPORT exactly the worst personnel of the left to rise into prominence is a subtler, much more efficient way to sabotage leftists and leftism as a whole:
    The public will then easily be able to see and learn of the incompetence and evilness of leftists themselves, shifting the population reliably against them.
    I think it very probable this strategy is used in Western societies to sabotage the left;
    examples include
    US-
    the Squad: Ocasio-Cortez, Omar, Pressley and Tlaib;
    Maxine Waters;
    UK- Diane Abbott
    Germany – Claudia Roth

    All these politicians have not only a rich history of embarrassing themselves by their actions and statements (failure at simple math, revealing lack of basic knowledge, etc.), but more importantly they create disgust in unresolved voters against the left, by openly revealing what they are and want through their sheer incompetence.

    • jim says:

      Nuts

      Relentless demonization of the Nazis works. Everyone remembers that they killed a lot Jews, no one remembers that the communists killed enormously more people, among them more Jews than the Nazis killed.

      Everyone believed Pol Pot was a saint, and when they switched overnight to believing him a demon, they also switched to believing he had been installed in power by Ronald Reagan.

      The bloodbath and hordes of refugees that followed the fall of Vietnam instantly went down the memory hole.

      Indoctrination into high status beliefs quite obviously works.

      People believe what they are damn well told by high status authority, even if, as with women in the workplace and higher education, it flatly contradicts what they see in front of their noses.

    • Anonymous Fake says:

      [*deleted*]

      • jim says:

        Deleted for presupposing facts for which no evidence is presented, as if they were uncontroversial and universally accepted. You deduce socialism, not even National Socialism, but socialism, from a far left account of economic events.

        You are going to have to argue and defend, rather than presuppose and assume, premises that are unlikely to be accepted by anyone to the right of Mitt Romney.

        And if you are going to persuade the right of socialism, you would have better luck starting from Mussolini’s critique of capitalism than Marx’s.

        • Anonymous Fake says:

          Real estate speculation doesn’t just corrupt the schools. It segregates (which is often whitewashed by black people as redlining) conservatives away from the most important cities where all of the productive and powerful government and corporate jobs are located. Conservatives live in sprawling subdivisions where they can afford to have families, while liberals live in expensive cities that pay very well if you don’t have kids to worry about.

          This isn’t natural. The conservatives are dispossessed of key administrative careers because they are stuck in “muh free market” subdivisions, while liberals simply seize every elite enterprise by default because they’re the local work force.

          The point about socializing housing is that it’s easier to do, being a strictly financial fraud to bid up housing costs with banker bucks, than to convince conservatives to stop living in traffic packed sprawl and start building cities that elites want to live in. Trying to escape cities ultimately doesn’t even work because the children are always going to be taught whatever prestige real estate wants them to be taught.

          Real estate is a euphemism for population control, and the controllers are a separate (((population))), not the sheeple. The universities have nothing on the physical and psychological manipulation of real estate elites. Most students are damaged goods long before they ever get into academia, and the ones who are just doing what they’re told aren’t the bad guys. They’re the victims of the Cathedral, not the first cause of it.

          • jim says:

            > Real estate speculation doesn’t just corrupt the schools. It segregates (which is often whitewashed by black people as redlining

            We are in favor of segregation. Everyone is in favor of segregation, just as everyone is in favor of traditional sex roles, and not even gays can put up with gays. Observe what happens in the school cafeteria. People spontaneously segregate by race and ethnicity. Diversity plus proximity equals war.

            People’s opposition to segregation, like their opposition to traditional sex roles, is piety, not inwardly felt or desired. Women are always searching for a man who can subdue them, and not finding him, and men are always searching for a place they can feel at home, where a black will not force his way into his house while he is away and his wife and kids are at home.

            A big problem is that talented blacks make money, and immediately flee other blacks, because of crime and violence. We need to force them to stick with their own people (involuntary segregation, Jim Crow) and give them power and authority – make them judges and cops, and make sure those judges and cops lean in on the side of the black married middle class, as was done during segregation, where the South created black universities to create a black middle and upper class to rule blacks for them. We need those black universities back again. Black people who are being groomed for middle class and upper class roles should not have to compete with white people in white people stuff. It is tougher on them than it is on the white students.

            Observe all those anti segregation lefties, while they integrate schools in flyover country at bayonet point, send their children to extremely expensive schools that are free from blacks, so that their sons will not be beaten up and their daughters gang banged. Everyone wants segregation in his own life, he just wants to impose it on his inferiors to destroy their status, thereby establishing his own superior status.

            Even affluent law abiding blacks would like to be near affluent law abiding blacks, rather than affluent law abiding whites. Trouble is, affluent blacks are not in fact law abiding, and their children considerably less law abiding, so they cannot get what they desire.

            A black college professor, unable to match his white colleague in a discussion using words, is apt to revert to sucker punching him. Even elite blacks do not want to be part of a predominantly white elite. They want to be part of a black elite, which is why they wind up wanting to get rid of the white elite, which is a substantial cause of our elite’s incohesion. If the diversities get the upper hand, Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden are off to the death camps. The diversities just don’t like them being around, just as black students at the black table in the school cafeteria just don’t like the white students being around.

            Segregation selected its black elite both for ability, and for peaceable and law abiding character, so created a black elite in which elite blacks could feel at home. Desegregation did more damage to black communities than it did to white communities.

            Diversity plus proximity equals war, and everyone prefers peace. Everyone wants segregation for himself, as you can see in our white elites living in lily white suburbs and sending their children to lily white schools. They just want to impose segregation on their inferiors because they hate them and want them to suffer. They want to inflict desegregation on other people, never on themselves.

            It is not speculators that are causing the few remaining white places near cities to be ridiculously expensive, it is too many people trying to flee into too small refuges.

            Members of the elite want to be near other members of the elite, so want to be near the big city, but they also want a safe house with with a garden for their wife and kids, and there just is not much available, hence the astronomical cost of safe housing near the big city. Socialism will not make more of it, just as it will not make more bread. It will destroy what little there is of it.

            Under socialism, just as everyone has to queue for bread, everyone has to live in government project housing. No one wants to live in government project housing. Everyone flees housing projects if they can. Bombing a neighborhood would be less damaging than the effect of a government housing project.

            • Mike says:

              >Where the South created black universities to create a black middle and upper class to rule blacks for them

              The only hole in that lock-tight theory is that many, if not most, black universities in the South were founded by Northern religious societies or carpetbagger Northerners and their black puppets within Southern legislatures during the 1860s and 1870s. That feels like the Boston Brahmins determining the way the South should order its society, not the South determining how it should order its society.

              • jim says:

                The South took what they were given, and turned it to their purpose. The leftists expected their black clients to become regular middle class people and get jobs in the regular white middle class, the right needed people to control blacks, and were under pressure to find jobs for those blacks with degrees.

    • The Cominator says:

      “Leftism cannot be fought openly – it would look like oppression, unfairness, “fascism” – all the things the left tells us are true would for most people look all the more true.”

      So what… and if you want to add an air of secrecy as to the fate of leftist in my state fine… model their fate on the Nacht und Nebel (Night and Fog) program.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nacht_und_Nebel

      They should disappear into the night and their friends and relatives should not be told anything about what happens to them.

  14. ERTZ says:

    >Relentless demonization of the Nazis works. Everyone remembers
    For most, but not for everybody.
    Sure, there is history taught in school, and there are anti-Nazi movies, even video games;
    those influence average people the most.

    Nazis become interesting for the youth because of those politically correct teachings, as a fashionable signaling device for revolt, defiance, mocking society; breaking a taboo signals courage.
    https://starsinformer.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Prince-Harry-Nazi-dress-up.jpg
    Some people, especially young, like to do specifically what they are told not to.

    Further, Nazis have an image of being strong, competent, ruthless.
    Nazi aesthetics is quite attractive – imperial, masculine, powerful.
    Even sexy – women are attracted by those masculine visuals, even gays.

    So, significant parts of the population have a more ironic disposition to Nazism – not just 4chan, but quite a lot of people secretly know they are racist, anti-diversity, anti-equality and know that those ideologies are lies – which shifts them towards sympathy with Nazism, they mix up Nazism with their anti-left, publicly hidden feelings.

    On an emotional level, all these work a bit in favor of Nazism, despite the demonization.

    Then there’s the ideology: Nationalism/tribalism/racism/militarism/eugenics.
    Two of the main victims of Nazism – Russians and Israelis – are today quite Nazi themselves.

    The perpetual propaganda against Nazis, of Holocaust remembrance, makes Nazis of course very salient – most of the people know very little,
    and what they know is from school/TV/media. What isn’t repeated there all the time becomes unknown, forgotten in the public mind.
    Average Joe knows more car brands than historic facts.

    Which is good and well, because Nazism is just another form of leftism – national leftism (National Socialism vs. International Socialism).
    It’s danger is that it can unite the right and most of the left in politics, producing majorities, and then take over power in elections,
    then ending democracy/rule of law/human rights/freedom – as it has happened in Germany.
    This justifies the anti-Nazi propaganda, because general leftism alone is rejected by a stable fraction of the population at all times;
    but Nazism has the dangerous potential to unite a large majority of voters and take over power.

    >no one remembers that the communists killed enormously more people
    Most really educated do know, and they are in positions of influence.
    A company director, media boss, military general, top politician etc. has much more influence than millions of people; what those elites know, and secretly believe, is critically important and makes all the difference.

    Anti-leftism done openly and directly is a PR-disaster, because it always superficially looks like oppression of the poor and weak, always looks evil to average people, who are naturally quite attracted to leftism because they feel themselves poor/oppressed/enslaved/exploited/envious of the rich, which makes attacks on leftism easily look like attacks on, say, the lower half of people in terms of worldly success.
    Leftism promises relive of their status humiliation, which is leftism’s strongest selling point.

    The truth that a free market, capitalism, meritocracy not only serve the few, but end up providing the highest standard of living especially to the “poor”, is almost impossible to democratically communicate to those poor, because of their cognitive limitations, and, very importantly, truthful complete explanation would explicitly humiliate those “poor” greatly, as their limitations would need to be clarified as causal elements of their lack of success.
    This is impossible in democracies for the same reason one cannot have totally honest politicians: Their complete honesty would humiliate a large part of the electorate, so they would never get many votes – the people falsely believe they’d want honest politicians – but they are themselves making them impossible.

    >Everyone believed Pol Pot was a saint
    Certainly not everyone. I’d guess if you asked a representative sample of Americans/Europeans, 80%+ would not even know who the guy was and what he did, 99.9%+ would be unable to explain why.

    I think you refer in your “everybody beliefs” statement to the phenomenon of public opinion, which is strongly determined by propaganda/opinion management, and NOT as such a leftist tool, but one of the government.
    That people have real, but secret, opinions and public ones (that can shift, even reverse, quickly with changing propaganda directives) is perfectly normal;
    if you want to have/keep/advance in many a job, you better heed political correctness – ESPECIALLY in many academic, non-STEM fields,
    because those “soft sciences” are influential towards public opinion – producing propaganda themselves (by producing – or not – currently politically useful or unwelcome research findings) – so they are under extra strict supervision of and government propaganda control.
    Science is today what religion was in the past – foundation of truth and justification for politics and power structure- so science is inherently political, and therefore needs to be tightly controlled by politics!
    As political requirements sometimes change abruptly because political goals and methods change abruptly, propaganda and then the politically correct opinions must change abruptly as well – and indeed, because the opposite may be “true” today than was yesterday, everybody conveniently and unembarrassingly forgets that he held the opposite public belief yesterday, therefore conveniently and unembarrassingly also forgetting about the fact that he is in such a weak and dependent position that he must switch beliefs as ordered by superiors.
    And, as explained above, having superficially some pro-leftist public beliefs – antiracism, equality, IQ does not matter and is not different between races ,etc. – may very well be government policy to keep leftism under control – or achieve some other, commendable, subtle political effect.

  15. The Cominator says:

    Trump caved to the panicmongers tonight and is extending CDC guidelines, bad news… Depression and good chance he loses the election now if the dems put in someone besides Biden.

    I suggest we all write the WH and tell him he needs to go back to his reopen by April.

  16. The Cominator says:

    Jim please give us your take on Trump (in what I think is a suicidal decision unless he reverses course) extending social distancing. I really don’t think he gets reelected if he extends this past mid April…

    Also what is the best country for a reactionary autist with some money to flee too…

    • jim says:

      At some point, probably late April, Trump is going to declare the crisis over, thanks largely to the widespread use of hydroxychloroquine. The stock market will recover, thanks largely to a massive injection of funny money, and the election will be done and dusted before the consequences of issuing so much funny money become apparent.

      • BC says:

        FDA just legalized the use hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19. This gets around the Dem governors banning it.

      • The Cominator says:

        Well inflation would probably be a good thing overall with the exception that real estate won’t collapse.

        I did notice the FDA stopped dragging its feet on Cloraquine after Trump apparently caved… maybe they figured now that Trump has adopted a position that will doom himself they didn’t need to drag their feet.

        https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/29/fda-emergency-authorization-anti-malaria-drug-155095

        Maybe he quickly pulls a bait and switch… but he has to do it quick. Throwing inflationary funny money isn’t bad if you restart the economy quickly… doing it while you destroy the economy (ala Venezuala and the former Rhodesia) have very predictable consequences though. But unless he pushes hard for reopenings by mid April he is doomed…

        • Mike says:

          You can’t flee anywhere because everyone else has shutdown their country due to the virus which you still somehow believe does not deserve shutting down society even though everyone else has done it.

          • The Cominator says:

            The fleeing would be after this meme pandemic is over, i don’t care about the hysteria its still fake and gay.

          • yewotm8 says:

            “Everybody else” also insists that the world will end soon due to rising global temperatures. The only thing we can do about it requires us to massively slow down our own productivity, because no amount of money is worth it, just in case.

            I see no difference between virus hysteria and warming hysteria.

            • jim says:

              Trump is surrounded by people telling him it will kill a hundred thousand or so.

              Trump, however, bypassed the medical establishment and is working directly with the private sector. We should very soon see results – I expect that the peak death rate was last Sunday, but they are telling him that the peak will be in two weeks.

              If the peak death rate was last Sunday, I hope he does a victory dance when re-opening America for business.

              • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                Imminent death total 5-6000 or less, followed by (media-ignored) downward revision in the summer when actuarial studies calculate excess deaths due to various causes and re-allocate causation away from the coronavirus in a substantial proportion of cases.

              • Pooch says:

                What is the motivation for the absurdly high death predictions by the medical establishment? Was it a plan to fuck Trump from day 1? Likewise, in Britain, to destroy Boris?

                Or were/are they (the medical establishment) genuinely concerned for the safety of the populace, whose predictions the Left has opportunistically used to try to fuck Trump?

                • jim says:

                  > What is the motivation for the absurdly high death predictions by the medical establishment?

                  There is legitimate uncertainty about the likely death rate, and, as with Global Warming, people expect and intend that a crisis, real or imaginary, can and will be used to implement leftism and socialism, so enthusiastically make predictions at the high end, and far beyond the high end. The Democrats expected and intended that the crisis would result in a massive expansion of centralized power, and were and are shocked and dismayed to see that it has expanded the power of the president, who promptly used the sudden rush of power, the power of the president, to diminish the power of the presidency, to cut his dangerously mighty servants down to size.

                  I recently watched a video analyzing Nancy Pelosi’s body language. She is shell shocked by the way the crisis has unfolded. This was utterly not what they expected. They passionately wanted and hoped for a mighty crisis for a mighty expansion of the power of the swamp, but the crisis that they eagerly desired has blown up in their faces.

                  They keep calling for healthcare and everything vaguely connected to healthcare to be nationalized as a crisis emergency measure, but Trump is instead denationalizing healthcare and everything vaguely connected to healthcare as a crisis emergency emergency. The CDC, FEMA, and the FDA expected a massive expansion in their powers, which expansion would inevitably become irreversible and permanent, got massive cuts in their powers, that they piously pray will not become irreversible and permanent.

                  Trump truthfully says he is mobilizing the private sector to address the crisis – but in the process he is empowering the private sector. The Democrats and the legacy media keep calling for a very different kind of mobilization.

                  You see at the crisis press briefings, Trump’s overly mighty servants saying this rollback in their power is a temporary crisis measure, emphasizing “temporary”. You will notice Trump at these press briefings fails to say anything about “temporary”. Hence Nancy Pelosi’s shell shocked body language.

                  A New York hospital makes unreasonable demands for masks. It might be reselling the masks out the back door, but more likely it is just hiding the masks in an effort to permanently grab coercive power over its suppliers. The supplier complains to his buddy Trump, and Trump asks “what the hell is happening to all those masks?”

                  The plan was that there would be moral outrage over the private sector’s inability to supply adequate masks, and instead Trump is promoting mask re-use and asking “what is happening to all those masks?”

                • pdimov says:

                  The predictions weren’t absurdly high. The formula is simple: (1 – 1/R0) * CFR, where 1 – 1/R0 is the fraction of the population that will become infected, and CFR is the case fatality rate.

                  Flu: R0=1.4, CFR=0.1%. Total deaths: 286 per million.
                  SARS 2.0: R0=2-4, CFR: 1-10%. Total deaths: 5000-75000 per million.

                  At the moment, mortality is 4% in China, 11% in Italy, 0.9% in Germany, 6% in the UK, 1.7% in the US. I wouldn’t put much hope on the Germany/US numbers though. Deaths lag cases by 1-2 weeks, up to a month in countries which can keep people alive for longer.

                • jim says:

                  > Deaths lag cases by 1-2 weeks, up to a month in countries which can keep people alive for longer.

                  It appears that no countries can keep people alive for longer. Oxygen can keep you alive when you would otherwise die of Wu Flu, and if demand for oxygen masks outstrips supply, that will substantially increase the death rate, but it looks like forcing oxygen down the throat of the heavily tranquilized victim with a ventilation machine does little good. The secret crisis of ICU is not that it is swamped by China virus, but that ICU is useless against China virus. You would be better off giving each patient who is having difficulty breathing an oxygen tank and leaving him in a regular hospital room to breath under his own power. Ventilation machines are not a treatment, they are merely priestly last rites. In the vast majority of cases, the patient dies in twelve hours after he is assigned to ventilation machine because his oximeter has been beeping the alarm. Pretty soon it is going to be beeping the alarm again. Assigning patients to ventilation machines before their oximeter beeps the alarm is counterproductive. The priest is reading your last rites prematurely. Efforts to expand the supply of ventilation machines so that ICU can handle more people are going to increase, not decrease, the death rate, because more priests will be reading more death rites.

                  Sometimes additional oxygen for someone who is having trouble breathing results in excessive carbon dioxide levels in the blood, but it seem this not a problem with Wu Flu. Oxygen works, the side effects of additional oxygen seldom happen, forced oxygen ventilation, however, fails. The big Wu Flu crisis is that the ICU priesthood loses its superior priestly status, since any random nurse, or any competent patient, can administer oxygen. Even though oxygen supplementation can cause nasty side effects if you are on it too much for too long, nobody is voluntarily on it too much or too long, and you can get oxygen without a prescription, and administer it without a license.

                  The big Wu Flu crisis is that the high holy priesthood of ICU is leaking status. Oxygen masks are nurse gear, therefore low status, ventilators are high holy status. That is the big crisis. It is not a critical shortage of high holy gear, it is a critical embarrassing failure of high holy gear to do any good.

                  Ventilation works in the minority of cases where the China virus affects the patients mind so that he forgets to breath, but if the patient is breathing like mad and it is not doing him much good, putting him on a machine to breath for him does not help much.

                • Pooch says:

                  Actual and true CFR is going to end up being much lower then 1% because a large proportion of positive cases are asymptomatic and thus not tested.

                • Mike says:

                  Well if you’re right that the ventilators aren’t actually that effective, and are merely the result of status-signaling, then why is Trump pushing so hard for the private sector to mass-produce them? Just trying to blow off the priests or is he being genuine?

                • jim says:

                  The Democrats want to milk the crisis to take state control of private sector production of ventilators. Better to push like mad for genuinely private production of ventilators.

                  He is also accommodating the high holy priesthood to avoid getting more resistance than he is already getting. The wind is blowing his way, might as well throw them a biscuit. His big enemies are the FDA and CDC. Don’t take on all your enemies at the same time.

                • pdimov says:

                  >Actual and true CFR is going to end up being much lower then 1% because a large proportion of positive cases are asymptomatic and thus not tested.

                  I see no basis for this claim. It’s wishful thinking. South Korea is at 1.7%, and I don’t think anyone accuses them of undertesting. China just declared their asymptomatic cases at 40,000, which is half of their current symptomatic count of 82545. Diamond Princess is at 1%.

                  The UK predicted deaths at 260K were a bit too low, not absurdly high.

                • Pooch says:

                  https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/03/30/health/coronavirus-lower-death-rate/index.html

                  The study states a 0.66 death rate but I suspect it’s lower still, probably more in line with swine flu (0.3 or so). Diamond Princess was all age 60+.

                  260k for U.K.? It’s at 1789 so that virus better get to movin.

                • Pooch says:

                  That is to say it’s still much more deadly then the common flu. I am definitely not looking forward to having swine flu or coronavirus.

                • Pooch says:

                  It’s wishful thinking to think all positive cases are tested or to take Chinas numbers as gospel. They don’t even test in areas that have no deaths. Brix and Fauci just spent an hour tonight saying the only way to know the true death rate is to take an antibody sample from the population.

                • pdimov says:

                  Diamond Princess was not all 60+, although the average age was 58.

                  https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.05.20031773v2.full.pdf

                • pdimov says:

                  0.66% gives you 224-336K for UK, which is exactly as predicted.

                  As for “it better get moving”, the prediction assumes no preventative measures such as lockdowns and masks, which decrease R0. (As the original UK plan was to do nothing and acquire “herd immunity.”)

                • Cloudswrest says:

                  If one’s lungs are compromised, I’ve often wondered if, under the right conditions, it would be possible to breath through your skin like a frog. Obviously a human can’t breath through their skin under normal atmospheric conditions, but how about hyperbaric oxygen at 10, 20, 50? atmospheres? You would need a full face mask or helmet with heliox with oxygen at much lower partial pressure to protect your lungs, eyes and other mucus membranes. With Covid exhalation of CO2 doesn’t appear to be a problem. Also is human tissue stable at such external oxygen pressures? Will a static spark ignite you and cause you to spontaneously combust? How about in a aqueous or saline immersion?

                • jim says:

                  Not enough blood circulating through the skin. And if you super oxygenated the skin to far above normal levels for very long, it would die.

                  Despite three billion years of evolution, oxygen is still toxic in high concentration. One bar of oxygen will have harmful effects over a few days, and oxygen masks are designed to provide less than 100% oxygen. Several bar causes damage very quickly.

                • Mike in Boston says:

                  Jim,

                  In the vast majority of cases, the patient dies in twelve hours after he is assigned to ventilation machine because his oximeter has been beeping the alarm.

                  The only hard numbers I have seen on survival of mechanically ventilated patients are from the March 27th UK ICNARC report, which reports that “only” about two-thirds of those put on a ventilator died, with one-third surviving to discharge from the ICU. It was a small sample of about a hundred patients. Do you have better sources than I do, or are you just using “vast majority” differently than I would?

                • jim says:

                  The number I read was one in seven surviving in China.

                  The survival rate is likely to vary depending on your preconditions for putting someone on mechanical ventilation.

                  Two thirds dying is the majority, six sevenths is the vast majority.

                  If any survived it is not evidence that the mechanical ventilation did any good even in one case, since not everyone put on a mechanical ventilator would have needed to be put on a mechanical ventilator. Maybe it helps a minority, and not a very large minority, but the evidence that it helps non existent, while the evidence that hydroxychloroquine helps is overwhelming. Different evidence standards are applied to high status and low status treatments.

                  Maybe it helps in few cases, we do not know. We do know it does not help, or even significantly prolong survival, in most cases. The FDAs vital concern with evidence based medicine is strangely selective.

                • Mike in Boston says:

                  Thanks, Jim. That six-sevenths number, certainly a vast majority, is sobering.

                  In a sane society, it would be easy to get a hold of legal plaquenil to take prophylactically, blue state governors be damned. Since that is a coup-complete problem, I find myself wishing for a cryptocurrency black market reliable enough that I could be assured the plaquenil I buy is not actually placebo, or strychnine.

                • Pooch says:

                  0.66% gives you 224-336K for UK, which is exactly as predicted.

                  There is not much convincing evidence that China flu is any more or less infectious then previous airborne viruses and flus. This is why we are calling it a flu. Extrapolating areas of the highest infection rates and deaths (Wuhan and Lombardy) just does not support the extremely high death predictions. As Jim says, they are making “predictions at the high end, and far beyond the high end.”

                  I noticed an interesting thing yesterday at Trump’s briefing. By letting the doctors blather on about the absurdly high 2 million lives lost number with no intervention, Trump can and did claim credit for saving “2 million lives” even if it’s completely unsubstantiated. Well played.

                • Dave says:

                  In a sane society, it would be easy to get a hold of legal plaquenil

                  But we live in a society where people hoard toilet paper. Every store in the UK has been cleaned out of Tylenol. How long would plaquenil stay on the shelves if it were freely available?

                • Mike in Boston says:

                  The number I read was one in seven surviving in China

                  And a New Jersey emergency room doc writes that the mortality rate for patients on ventilators is 80% to 90%. So much nearer the numbers you saw from China than the ones I saw from the UK.

                • Not Tom says:

                  Ironically, I believe ramping up supply and deployment of ventilators would actually appear to improve the effectiveness of ventilators, because there would be more patients who do not really need the ventilators being put on ventilators, thus increasing the apparent survival rate.

                  I’m not entirely convinced that this is deliberate; I’ve perused a number of message boards where the medical professionals talk to each other and in general it looks as though they all want real solutions, they’re not speaking in code (well, aside from the incomprehensible medical jargon – but not the conspiratorial kind of code).

                  It’s more the superset of the placebo effect, which I don’t think has a formal name, so I’ll just call it the snake-oil effect: the apparent effectiveness of a cure is intrinsically tied to the number of users who were either never very ill or would have gotten better on their own. And it’s just as easy to make this mistake accidentally, through “data-driven” statistical approaches, as it is deliberately through the promotion and sale of snake oil.

                  From what I glean, the major issue with oxygen therapy is not that it doesn’t work, but that all available types of that therapy are highly efficient at aerosolizing the virus and dramatically increasing the risk to hospital personnel. That’s technically a solvable problem (isolation) but practically isn’t (space/cost) for most hospitals.

                  The eternal optimist in me wonders if this might convince some hospitals how to stop being gigantic disease incubators and permanently implement proper containment systems, but the much louder cynic says that it is just too difficult and too expensive for our already bloated bureaucracy.

                • pdimov says:

                  Pooch may turn out to be right, at least for Germany.

                  “Preliminary results: About 14% of people tested had a pre-existing immunity to SARS-CoV-2 in the form of plasma IgG titers to viral antigen (specificity of the method is >99%). RT-PCR testing revealed that about 2% of those tested had an ongoing SARS-CoV-2 infection. About 15% of those tested had either a current or a resolved SARS-CoV-2 infection. Based on this data, the Case Fatality Rate for the community of Gangelt is about 0.37%.”

                  From a comment at

                  https://www.unz.com/isteve/german-scientists-virus-is-spread-less-by-work-than-by-fun/

            • Mike says:

              @yewotm8

              When I refer to “everyone else” I am mainly focusing on non-cucked countries or not as cucked countries like China, Russia, Singapore, and maybe Hungary or Poland. Who are also completely shutting down their borders and certain sectors of their economy. If Putin is doing it, doesn’t that mean we should too?

            • pdimov says:

              There are differences. First, warming doesn’t exist, but the virus does. Second, CO2 is global so “everyone else” is in a position to insist you do things. But what you do in your own country (as long as you stay there) does not affect other countries, so “everyone else” doesn’t care.

              So you can be Sweden if you so like. Everyone else will appreciate the instructive example.

              https://twitter.com/cmhrrs/status/1244710002251763716

        • jim says:

          Trump had already mobilized the private sector to ship thirty million doses of hydroxychlorquine to the hospitals, hospital bureaucracy be damned, a truck is going to show up at their delivery door full of meds, ordered or not, ready or not. What are you going to do? Turn it around? Hide it in the basement?

          Maybe some of them will. Maybe a lot of them will. But if they do, doctors and patients are going to say “gimmee”, and it is going to get ugly.

          Similarly, they have been slow walking masks and gowns, and Trump has called for investigation into that, implying that they are slow walking them for resale on the black market. Whether they were slow walking them for the black market, or slow walking them so that Trump could be blamed, Trump is lighting a fire under them. And if they slow walk the hydroxychloroquine that is being delivered right now, he will be lighting another fire soon enough.

          He is now talking some time after Easter to ease up on the lockdown of the economy. The number of daily deaths, which was growing exponentially, has fallen slightly. In a week, will have fallen considerably. At which point he can declare victory and get out. Probably April 14, April 20.

          Since new cases continue to grow exponentially, the change in death rate is probably hyroxychloroquine hitting the hospitals. If so, we should see the impact by Thursday.

          • BC says:

            They’re also slow walking hydroxychlorquine by only treating people with it after their lungs have already been shredded by the virus. At a that point antibiotics become more important that general viral load. Hydroxychlorquine needs to be used early.

            • Mister Grumpus says:

              Some minority of doctors will defy, prescribe it earlier rather than later, and then their patients will tell their family and friends about how they got better.

              Those friends and acquaintances who had lost someone to three miserable weeks of Big-Bucks-Itrol (or whatever) will… have something to say to their friends and family also.

              (…I hope.)

            • FrankNorman says:

              They are deliberately letting people die in order to try to pin the blame on Trump?
              Sheesh.

              Okay, should not really be surprised given Democrats’ previous antics, like the relief supplies to Porto Rico that never got distributed, but the blatant evil is still shocking.

      • Dude says:

        How should one invest to mitigate the effects of so much funny money over the longer term? Real estate? Gold? Canned sandwiches? Will see see mass inflation? Stagflation? Deflation?

    • Pooch says:

      False.

      His approval rate is as high as its ever been. His support is strong because the American people on both sides of the aisle overwhelmingly view this as a real health crisis because it is. As Jim says, it’s a flu but it’s a deadlier flu. The total death count, whatever it is, is going to be on his watch so it’s in his interest to keep it from getting too high. He said at or under 100k would mean we did good. I agree with him over 100k dead is a bad look.

      Now of course the Left are going to slow walk supplies and meds to literally kills people and raise the death count to hurt Trump and prevent the economy from coming back. The cathedral is going to push the narritive that the virus will come back in the fall, etc so we must keep the economy closed indefinitely. The key is Trump has put a tangible end date in sight which indicates he is winning.

      • The Cominator says:

        Its probably deadlier than the flu but also probably less contangious than the flu (if its as contangious as the flu than its in fact less deadly)… and there is an antiviral in Cloraquine. It was NEVER going to kill nearly 2.2 million people that is muh models absurdity.

        Trump’s approval rose when he tweeted reopen by Easter and when he started talking about cost-benefit of keeping things closed when the dems were pushing the closed forever line, its going to plummet now unless he reverses course.

        Nobody is going to care how few died when we are in a depression and people have lost everything… now it might be okay to be in a depression if the Democrats owned the depression… but Trump just took part ownership of a depression by backing off a quick reopening.

        OTOH old people dying WILL BE forgiven and forgotten. As Machiavelli says in the Prince children will get over you having their parents executed as long as you don’t confiscate their estates. Parents have a hard time getting over the deaths of their children, and men have a hard time when a woman they truly love dies… but this does NOT go in reverse and otherwise people move on real quick.

        • Steve Johnson says:

          Its probably deadlier than the flu but also probably less contangious than the flu

          You are a fucking moron.

          • The Cominator says:

            No you.

            1. If its as contagious as the flu that means the mild and asympomatic cases are MUCH higher than almost anyone thinks as recorded cases are nowhere near the # of flu cases.

            2. This would mean it kills LESS people percentagewis than the flu.

            So its either one or the other.

            • Steve Johnson says:

              The first American death was in February. The American death toll reached 1000 last Thursday and it reached 2000 on Sunday.

              It reached 3000 today.

              People who can do first year college math understand the implications. You do not.

              You are a fucking moron.

              • The Cominator says:

                Yeah yeah yeah exponential growth and muh models.

                The deaths are going to start leveling off soon because of cloraquine etc. The sickest people who got it already and were untreated took time to die.

                The death toll is going to be less than the seasonal flu.

                • alf says:

                  OK thats numbers we can work with.

                  What I find is:
                  2018 death toll influenza in the US: ~80.000.
                  Death toll sars-covid-2 so far in the US: ~3.100

                  Looking surprisingly good for Com actually.

                • pdimov says:

                  2018 flu was without any preventative measures such as lockdowns. (But maybe with a vaccine. I don’t know how many people in America vaccinate themselves against the flu, and how often against the correct strain.)

                  SARS 2.0 without lockdowns would have beaten 80K easily.

              • jim says:

                China flu was growing exponentially until last Saturday. It has been growing exponentially for several weeks. It was expected to grow exponentially for some time to come. If it had continued growing for two more weeks, would have been about one hundred thousand deaths. In this sense, The Cominator is an idiot.

                It looks like we turned the corner last Sunday, 2020-03-28, in which case it will have been no big deal at all, an utterly insignificant addition to the numerous other flues already circulating, just another flu among far too many, deadlier than most, but still no big deal. In this sense, The Cominator is correct prescient, and accurate, as he often is.

                It was scary because it was killing a lot more people than usual, and we had no treatment for it. People who merely needed additional oxygen generally lived, though an alarming number of people needed additional oxygen. People who got to the point where they needed ICU ventilators to force them to breath, almost always died, ventilator or no ventilator. It turned out that intensive care units being overwhelmed and a shortage of ventilators made very little difference, because intensive care helps very little. (It seldom helps, except in cases of a healthy man with severe traumatic injury)

                We were thinking that intensive care units being overwhelmed, which normally does not happen when a nasty flu circulates, would be a crisis. They were indeed overwhelmed, but it turned out to be no crisis. If you reach the point where you genuinely need an intensive care unit, better off making your peace with God. If you are having trouble breathing due to China virus, oxygen helps, but forcing oxygen down your throat with a ventilator is unlikely to help.

                It was genuinely scary. But now we have hydroxychloroquine, the scariness should go away.

                • Steve Johnson says:

                  But now we have hydroxychloroquine, the scariness should go away.

                  That’s absolutely correct and Cominator will end up correct in conclusion but absolutely wrong in the specifics. It is extremely contagious (exponential growth with a doubling time of about 2 or 3 days barring extraordinary measures that the entire west doesn’t have the state capacity to take) and between 10 and 50 times as deadly as the flu. His argument was that neither of those was true – not that there’d be a miracle cure.

                  Also it’s not certain that the Cathedral will be unsuccessful in suppressing the cure; certainly they’re still trying.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Even without hydroxychloroquine (which I mentioned here early though pdimov beat me and it figured into my view) given the number of cases it cannot be both more contagious and more deadly than the flu for reasons I described but just so you don’t keep insisting you’re right I’ll go through again.

                  Corona-chan is perhaps under very specific conditions of climate and population density more contagious then the flu (urban places with many people all touching the same surfaces and in airplanes and in cruises with buffets) but if it was more contagious than the flu in general you’d see far more recorded cases worldwide. Social distancing (which Japan isn’t doing much of just observing their usual extreme sanitation) or not you’d see more cases.

                  Now perhaps you can argue okay… that there are tons and tons of unrecorded cases far more than anyone thinks, more than 10 to 1. And okay maybe there are (but South Korea suggests probably not) but if so it would be less deadly on average than the flu.

                  So once again Corona-chan can be more deadly than the flu if untreated (probably true) or more contangious (probably false, very special conditions of mass touching of surfaces in certain climates exceped) but NOT both.

                  So while in some ways I’m a sperg idiot I’m not wrong here.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  > Cathedral … suppressing the cure; certainly they’re still trying.

                  The entire rest of the world is scrambling to do, at a minimum, the French protocol (Dr Raoult). Korea, like Dr Zelenko, added zinc and they had the best national-level results. FDA has caved and allows the French method for those with a positive test result. Which means all but the lowest-information patients will be demanding the Zelenko protocol for anyone at risk or with so much as a cold.

                  Cuomo can kill off the people in AoC’s district and people too old and alone to read the internet, but that’s about it.

              • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                > 1000 last Thursday … 2000 on Sunday. … 3000 today.

                No. First of all this is not the beginning of exponential growth, it is the first half of a sigmoid curve, logistic growth (in ideal circumstances for the virus to propagate). It looks like we hit the inflection point, so the default estimate of the ultimate number of deaths is double the current total. That’s without taking into account the probable success of social isolation measures in preventing newer cases, and the testing and treatment options available lately after most of the infections in New York already took place.

                The latest CDC number, which counts both confirmed and “presumptive” cases (big fudge there) is 2400. “Will eventually be confirmed” is a lower number, which is higher than the excess mortality, which is higher than the excess mortality due to respiratory problems (pneumonia), which is higher than the excess respiratory mortality attributable to coronavirus. The people dying who have CV19 also have major preexisting conditions and if CV19 is a contributing factor it should be credited in the statistics in some sort of inverse proportion to the pre-existing risks, such as weighing someone with 3 major conditions including coronavirus as 1/3 of a CV death. These are old and frail people to begin with so would be further downweighted in the more precise actuarial numbers like mortality acceleration. Cominator, and some of Jim’s early assessments, were essentially correct that this is hyped to a level best described as deliberate panic-inducing bullshit.

                The Cathedral as embodied in Rod Rosenstein’s sister, Doctor Nancy Messonier who heads the relevant part of CDC, decided a couple of weeks ago to stop distinguishing “presumptive” cases (which outnumbered confirmed severalfold) because having a higher “confirmed” count sounds more panic-worthy. When the current wave is over and actuaries put out the more refined calculations using Confirmed numbers it will be a 1-2 order of magnitude deflation from bullshit estimates like 100000 dead.

                The Italian numbers are also inflated. Death rate overestimated by under-testing and asymptomatic carriers, and by attribution of any flu-like or respiratory deaths to coronavirus if the patient tested positive. Their rate, like China’s, is higher than other countries due to smog (in the North) and smoking; respiratory diseases were legion in both places before CV19.

        • Not Tom says:

          there is an antiviral in Cloraquine

          It’s spelled “chloroquine”, you nincompoop. And that matters here, because you keep spelling it that way despite it having been mentioned more than a dozen times in this thread alone – which demonstrates that you aren’t listening to what anyone else has to say, just repeating your silly narrative over and over again.

          The saddest part of all of this to me is that Trump has been acting heroically here, first by taking the issue seriously back in January when everyone else was downplaying it, shutting down international travel when the establishment was against it, and now running rings around the medical bureaucracy to get drugs and protective equipment into the supply chain, and because of people like you, his heroic efforts will largely go unrecognized even among his core supporters, because “it was never a big deal” and actually he really messed up a lot by “caving to the CDC” and other doomsayers.

          It’s a serious problem and we are taking important steps to fix it. The idea that the only solution is never-ending lockdown because we’ll have to deal with the second, third and seventeeth waves is obviously hysterical nonsense. The idea that it was never a serious problem and is milder than the flu is also flat-out wrong, and the proof is in the body count.

          (I’m sure you’re itching to reply with some nitwitted “but body count is still lower than the flu!” Yes, which flu, over what period of time, and with what containment measures?)

          • pdimov says:

            Trump jumped the gun on chloroquine, but that was a calculated risk, and it seems that he was right to do so.

            • Dude says:

              Or perhaps he didn’t so much as jump the gun, but fired it. Once he got it out there, do you think every medical professional in the country who hadn’t already heard about this didn’t start Googling?

            • Fred says:

              The real risk from the chloroquine tweet was not the science (that CQ/HCQ were effective against SARS is well-documented, and this virus is a different strain of the same species), but the inevitability of the cathedral’s absolutely feral full-court press against it.

              This whole chloroquine flap is actually a good case study in how the cathedral’s traditional ability to impose gleichschaltung on the world has decayed because of the internet. If this were 1990 (ie. no consumer internet), the press would have successfully suppressed the chloroquine thing worldwide, without a doubt. If this were 2000 (ie. internet yes, social media not yet)… I’d guess that the press _probably_ would have succeeded in coordinating global public opinion against chloroquine. If this were 2010 (social media here), I’d guess they probably wouldn’t have succeeded.

              2020? Not a chance. The cathedral put its 1990-tier global gleichschaltung playbook into action, and succeeded in convincing… American leftists.

              The entire world is prescribing CQ/HCQ and the only people who haven’t figured it out are Americans – and even then, only leftist Americans.

              In other words, Trump wasn’t just betting on the pharmaceutical efficacy of chloroquine – he was also betting that the traditional opinion-synchronisation mechanism of the left had broken down not only globally, but in the US as well.

              And he was right. Good bet, Donald.

            • Steve Johnson says:

              The latest I’m reading on twitter is that he didn’t jump the gun – that China knew about chlorquine and the phostphate and hydroxy- versions nearly from the start when lupus patients who were in hospitals never developed a single case (chlorquine / HCQ is used for treating lupus).

              Was CIA clueless about something widely reported in China? Likely. Did some one person in intelligence who found this piece of info out get it to Trump and that’s why he knew? Possible.

              • pdimov says:

                As I said in a comment under a previous post, China published about the effectiveness of choloroquine phosphate in February:

                https://www.shine.cn/news/nation/2002172234/

                and then recommended it in March:

                http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-03/06/c_138850726.htm

                Still, at the time Trump announced it as a miracle drug, things weren’t quite conclusive yet. Japan and Italy recommended different approaches at the time.

                (I noticed the lupus result too, on Twitter. But I didn’t know it at the time, and I doubt Trump did either.)

              • Mister Grumpus says:

                “…when lupus patients who were in hospitals never developed a single case (chlorquine / HCQ is used for treating lupus).”

                No kidding? Really? Please tell me you didn’t just, you know, embellish that.

                • pdimov says:

                  He didn’t. But I can’t find the supporting link, because all searches about lupus and coronavirus are contaminated with articles how lupus patients can’t acquire HCQ now because of shortages.

                • Mike in Boston says:

                  Please tell me you didn’t just, you know, embellish that.

                  I can’t find the original article in Chinese at the moment, but here is an unsourced crappy machine translation:

                  Hydroxychloroquine is… the basic drug for patients with systemic lupus erythematosus. In the early stage of the study group, through the clinical analysis of 178 patients with new coronavirus received by the [Wuhan University] hospital from December 2019, it was found that none of them was systemic lupus erythematosus. After that, in the consultation of 80 patients with systemic lupus erythematosus treated by dermatology department of the hospital, it was found that they were not infected with new coronavirus pneumonia.

                • chedolf says:

                  “Clinical information has also emerged from Covid treatment. During the initial Chinese outbreak, Wuhan doctors observed that patients with lupus—a disease for which HC is a common treatment—did not seem to develop Covid-19. Of 178 hospital patients who tested positive, none had lupus and none were on HC. None of this Wuhan hospital’s dermatology department’s 80 lupus patients were infected with the novel coronavirus. The Wuhan doctors hypothesized that this may be due to long-term use of HC.”

                  https://www.wsj.com/articles/an-update-on-the-coronavirus-treatment-11585509827

              • Pooch says:

                Musk was tweeting heavily about chloroquine before Trump mentioned it. Betting on the recommendations of smart people are often good bets.

          • a crocodile's tear says:

            It’s spelled “chloroquine”, you nincompoop. And that matters here, because you keep spelling it that way despite it having been mentioned more than a dozen times in this thread alone – which demonstrates that you aren’t listening to what anyone else has to say, just repeating your silly narrative over and over again.

            “Cases of dysgraphia in adults generally occur after some neurological trauma or it might be diagnosed in a person with autism, Asperger’s Syndrome, Tourette syndrome or ADHD.” [1]

          • The Cominator says:

            You are bringing up muh spelling because I was 100% right on this meme “pandemic”. Just admit you were wrong.

            I’m not mad at Trump him for cutting off travel from China in January of course he was right to do that, I’m not mad at him for doing the initial 15 days because he had no choice and was between the devil and the deep sea.

            But extending the closures and not calling for a reopening now is a catastrophic suicidal blunder of biblical proportions, he can still save himself but he doesn’t have much time. If he doesn’t get back to “reopen by Easter” he is going to own a large portion of the economic damage and that is going to be the end of him. Biden’s senility and stupidity is not going to save him either as Biden either is not going to be the nominee or he is going to resign from the top of the ticket in favor of his VP shortly after the convention. Trump is not going to be so immune to the constant full court press of orange man bad when the economy sucks.

            • jim says:

              > But extending the closures and not calling for a reopening now is a catastrophic suicidal blunder of biblical proportions.

              His concern was that all his terribly expert extremely holy experts might be right – or might make damn sure that they were right.

              He sent a naval hospital ship to New York to address the artificial shortage of hospital beds, and they tried to block it so that they could have a hospital crisis, and prematurely announced that it had been blocked.

              If he prematurely or “prematurely” announces an end to crisis, every death thereafter will be blamed on his greed, and every shortage manufactured by stacking supplies in warehouses will be blamed on him, as happened in Puerto Rico.

              • The Cominator says:

                So what should be done. Its better to own some extra old urban boomers dying than a depression and lots of small business failures.

                • jim says:

                  I can’t predict, I doubt Trump can predict, and I absolutely certain the medical people around him, blinded by their own superior holiness, can’t predict the course of this pandemic. But I expect that in retrospect, the peak will be seen to have been Sunday, and reopening America for business on April twelve would save the economy, without creating excuses to say “Orange man bad.”

                  But in his speech, he said that the guidelines would be renewed two weeks into April, and would likely continue to the end of April, which is going to have large adverse effect on the economy.

                  Trump now has emergency power over the fed, which I doubt he is going to relinquish. Expect, therefore, a rapid recovery leading into the election. The fed has long been a thorn in his side.

                  During the crisis, the reflexive obstruction to Bad Orange Man collapsed. Efforts to obstruct were casually brushed away. Trump was able to get away with exercising the immense powers of the presidency. The holdouts, still trying to stop not-my-president from doing anything presidential, got rolled and rolled hard, as in the attempt to delay the hospital ship from docking in New York Harbor for four weeks.

                  The Democrats expected to milk the crisis, but instead Trump is milking it.

                  Returning to not-my-president Orange-Man-Bad is going to be difficult, because an enormous number of dead presidential powers over the presidency have been reactivated.

                  Normally a crisis is used to expand socialism. Trump is using it to roll back socialism. This is likely to substantially help the economy after america re-opens. Trump says “we shut down our country” … “We are going to build it back rapidly”. “We are going to bring the economy back. We are going to bring it back fast.” He is keeping his eye on the ball.

                  In the past, every crisis has advanced leftism and socialism, and Democrats thought that was simply the natural course of events. The reverse has happened this time. In a crisis people look for a leader. And this time we have a leader who is not in the enemy’s pocket.

                  The Democrats wanted a big crisis to expand socialism and leftism. But it is not at all unfolding as they envisaged.

                • BC says:

                  In the past, every crisis has advanced leftism and socialism, and Democrats thought that was simply the natural course of events. The reverse has happened this time. In a crisis people look for a leader. And this time we have a leader who is not in the enemy’s pocket.

                  Jim cut right to the point I tried to make previously.

                  Cominator, we had an exchange earlier where I stated that how Trump responded to the crisis mattered more than the economy at the end of it. The economy stopped being a major factor in the election while Trump’s performance as a war time leader became the only fight that mattered. As long as the virus is contained and people feel safe and cared for by our leader Trump will be reelection just as FDR was during the middle of the great depression. Though with the full power of the Fed’s on Trump side, I expect the economy will be heading in a positive direction as well.

                  During the crisis, the reflexive obstruction to Bad Orange Man collapsed. Efforts to obstruct were casually brushed away. Trump was able to get away with exercising the immense powers of the presidency. The holdouts, still trying to stop not-my-president from doing anything presidential, got rolled and rolled hard, as in the attempt to delay the hospital ship from docking in New York Harbor for four weeks.

                  An outcome I never would have guessed possible.

                • The Cominator says:

                  FDR had the Cathedral (which was originated by Wilson and the original wave of anglo puritan progressives, not by him so its a mistake to think he created it he merely expanded it and it was already somewhat there when he got in) fully behind him. FDR also benefited from a very very hated predecessor in Hoover (who deserved it tbh).

                  The Cathedral media and institutions will NEVER accept Trump NEVER. Trump is an open heretic as far as their church goes. Its like expecting the Church of England clergy to be happy with James II or for the Catholic clergy in France to happy with Henry IV. No state churches HATE having an open heretic as head of state. This is the driving force behind Trump derangement syndrome.

                  The good economy was Trump’s armor against the constant chorus of orange man bad… the small businessmen supporters of him and tradesmen a good part of his base are going to feel totally betrayed if he doesn’t push for reopenings by mid April.

                  Now there is a very good chance Trump will pivot again soon… but if not he is not likely to survive.

                • BC says:

                  FDR had the Cathedral (which was originated by Wilson and the original wave of anglo puritan progressives, not by him so its a mistake to think he created it he merely expanded it and it was already somewhat there when he got in) fully behind him. FDR also benefited from a very very hated predecessor in Hoover (who deserved it tbh).

                  FDR won because people viewed him as a leader who cared about them.

                  The Cathedral media and institutions will NEVER accept Trump NEVER.

                  No shit, that’s why Trump went around them. That why these daily briefings have been so very useful to Trump because he bypassed the gate keepers and the gate keepers are looking horible in the way they attempt to question Trump.

              • Theshadowedknight says:

                Jim, can I have the links to this? I am beating on the leftists with this whole thing and it’s nice to have more ammo and a sharp stick to put in their eyes. The normies are looking for a port in a storm and I’d love to trumpet that the left is trying to close the ports, literally and metaphorically.

    • Fred says:

      I find it perplexing that anyone could infer the result of an election from (uhh) advice to maintain your distance from other people.

  17. maxxx foot says:

    https://twitter.com/RomneySmith/status/1242508055494918144

    but under socialism we might have bread lines

    • jim says:

      That is socialism. The State Government is using the crisis as an excuse for giving out “free” food.

      Which, should it continue, is likely to result in being unable to obtain food at all, for the food has to come from somewhere. The government does not magically create it, and when the government takes over one part of food distribution, it finds it has to take over the whole system, which invariably proves to be beyond its capability.

      Another solution is a colony in Africa, largely run by American blacks. Move the best blacks there to run it, and the problem blacks there under their authority – the segregation solution with a lot more distance.

  18. Yul Bornhold says:

    Viktor Orban is now dictator of Hungary. All the progressives are tearing out their hair over this not being ‘democratic’ although it has happened entirely in accordance with the formal system of elected representatives.

    • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

      The US election is already a distant memory, and the DNC will fight hard to prevent it from returning in any recognizable form, because virus.

    • BC says:

      King Orban the First feels good on the lips.

  19. notglowing says:

    No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the LORD. Deuteronomy 23:1

  20. Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

    Public Service Announcement. Papers fresh off the preprint servers re coronavirus treatment.

    meta-analysis: 19 earlier studies, before Raoult and Zelenko, all say about about 500mg/day of hydroxychloroquine for several days is good for you and bad for the virus.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.24.20042366v1

    (Zelenko and Korean doctors say to add zinc to the French protocol)

    Vitamin D and Quercetin suspected of helping against virus
    https://arxiv.org/abs/2003.13665

    Harmless inhalation (1-2 minutes) of heated whiskey vapors may kill SARS-type respiratory viruses in lungs:
    https://arxiv.org/abs/2003.12444
    author, a physics professor in Japan, claims ” Medical doctor and our research scientists, including me, are trying this method for four weeks, no side effects are reported, no one infected with corona virus till today”

    All these are low risk as prophylactics or treatment.

  21. BC says:

    Hey, has anyone found any evidence to refute or confirm my speculation that the CDC intentionally screwed up the testing? I still haven’t gotten a straight answer on why the tests failed from the media.

    • jim says:

      The most likely explanation is that they were unable to produce tests for the same reason as Obama was unable to produce his Obamacare website, and the US Navy keeps running into things.

      • BC says:

        That does seem likely, but we’re seeing a lot of attempts to kill people in order to make Trump look bad. Again, it’s just speculation.

    • The Cominator says:

      Hardly, anything that says that more testing is needed to confirm chloroquine is bullshit. Chloroquine works and the evidence is overwhelming that it works. Doubt about is an enemy meme.

      Not that any of us here believe in the constitution but if the government is going to so blatantly violate it by keep us under virtual house arrest the next step should be that all critics and anyone who disputes the effectiveness of chloroquine needs to be detained for the duration of this bullshit.

      If Trump is going to order the en masse production of ventilators (which in most cases merely delay the death of someone who is going to die, and if they save you its because the virus went into remission for the time it bought you… most likely because you got chloroquine) Soviet style he should do so for cloroquine so this madness can end ASAP.

      • BC says:

        Hardly, anything that says that more testing is needed to confirm chloroquine is bullshit. Chloroquine works and the evidence is overwhelming that it works. Doubt about is an enemy meme.

        Lets review:

        Doctors covering their asses to giving lip service to the cathedral line:

        The doctors stressed that more long-term studies are needed to draw concrete scientific conclusions about hydroxychloroquine and Chinese coronavirus. But they said they decided to act because they felt it was safe and because the coronavirus pandemic does not leave any time to wait for what could be months or even years of clinical trials.

        Doctors using the exception of “Battle Field Medicine” to ignore the holy rites:

        “This is battlefield medicine and the use of real time frontline assessment,” said Dr. Vladimir Zelenko, who practices family medicine with mostly ultra-Orthodox Jewish patients near the Orange County, New York, village of Kiryas Joel. The tightknit community has seen a deluge of coronavirus cases in recent weeks.

        The article one giant loophole to go around the roadblocck the Cathedral put up.

      • ten says:

        trumps approval ticking up rapidly in the midst of “hysteria” and economic lockdown, as should be expected – any crisis will solidify the support for the incumbent unless exceptionally botched, exemplified even further by the swedish socialists who merely severely botched their crisis management yet still receive stronger support for it.

      • Mister Grumpus says:

        The HCQ story is squirting out through more and more cracks by the day.

        Deaths per day in Italy is leveling out, maybe going down. Guess why.

        So now I’m worried about some Venezuela dumbfuckery or Gulf-of-Tonkin type shit. Just what we need.

        I hope Trump has some kind of negotiation going on where these people can set sail to Monaco instead of taking us all down with them. Please Donald don’t corner them.

  22. Mr.P says:

    More Cominator validation …

    “Enough Of The Lies Folks”
    https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=238773

    – End the lock-downs

    – Covid-19 is transmitted primarily in hospitals

    – Isolate all medical personnel

    – Ventilators do not save lives

    – Going on a vent is near-certain death

    – Hydroxychloroquine in combo with other substances works

    – Shelter in place only the high-risk

    – End the madness of turning U.S. economy into a smoldering bomb crater.

    But how, when the usual suspects are pushing from behind to intensify the panic and destruction?

    • The Cominator says:

      https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2020/04/02/were-living-under-government-by-modeling/

      Some of you may think Rush is too boomer conservatism inc. but he cuts right to the heart of it here…

      Its like global warming as a sudden panic before the skepticism could buildup.

      The solution is Trump needs to pushback, but he only has about 10 days…

      • Pooch says:

        The proof will be in the pudding. If we aren’t well on our way to at least 100k deaths in the next couple weeks, the so-called peak, we and Trump can decidedly call Fauci and company’s model to be bullshit and declare the crisis over.

        • The Cominator says:

          The Cathedral is already astroturfing against this by declaring that the deaths (which they are OVERcounting) are in fact undercounted.

          • Strannik says:

            If that’s the reality of the situation, that there are fewer deaths than they project, they will state that it was their efforts that saved those additional lives. Both sides will do that, but I think the American people will know who really was making the effort.

            • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

              Michigan and Nevada governors reversed their bans on hydroxychloroquine. Cuomo ambiguously overruled but has irrecoverably pinned himself to the death-by-FDA side of the issue… and then his brother got the virus.

              Pets of Poz in NYC are recovering (having been on the last rites Ventilator Of Death) after getting the HCQ + AZT treatment. Laura Ingraham TV show promoting HCQ+AZT as the cure.

              There is now an aggregator account “Hydroxychloroquine News” on Twitter where you can follow this disaster (for the DNC) as it unfolds story by story. It is a literally-fatal credibility failure the Democratic establishment cannot conceal. If Pelosi “investigates” Trump he will of course push the HCQ issue to the hilt, CV19 fatalities by that point clearly stopped at under 10 percent of the catastrophized projections.

              • Mister Grumpus says:

                This world is going to need shitloads of HCQ for the next some years. Anybody looking for a growth industry to invest in well you sure found it.

                • jim says:

                  Anyone IQ 110-120 can make HCQ. There is not going to be much profit margin.

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  So, the existing players will just ramp up what they’re doing now? Copy-paste copy-paste? Is that what you expect?

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Regulatory capture is like magic.

                  Pharma will turn a low profit-per-unit moderate volume line into a moderate PPU, huge volume, permanent guaranteed market (“to ensure critical national supply”), with 20 new expensive bioengineered flavors and coatings (so anyone can take it with a 99.999 guarantee of no side effects no matter their side conditions), patent protected and monopolized versus generics (“to assure safety and quality control”). Studies will show that HCQ works much better with a superexpensive partner drug, a cocktail that coincidentally will be the government approved gold standard of treatment.

                • jim says:

                  Peer reviewed studies never show that a generic or a supplement works. Odd that🙃

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  Omar, I am equally infuriated and convinced by your prediction.

                  This is a wider and deeper legitimacy crisis than I could ever have imagined. Such malignancy, such parasitism. This is “Antoinette class“ disregard for the citizenry. Just amazing.

                  A lot of ambitious people can make a lot of political hay out of this, and I’m not altogether comfortable with or trusting of a good many of those people.

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  Oh and everyone here can smack me for needing this Covid crisis, now, to actually comprehend the malignancy. And after years on this blog too, only now I’m starting to really make it out. How silly.

                  The silver lining must be that surely I’m not the only one.

                • Atavistic Morality says:

                  If they had a disregard for the citizens, the citizens would be much better off.

                  You’re saying they are like knights looking down on plebeians because they don’t hold themselves to the same high code of honor. But they are like priests pitying the poor plebeians who are like children and need their guidance.

                  The knightly father is disappointed and shames you, which incentivises improvement and following the example.

                  The motherly priest pities you and smothers you with his care for your own good, enjoy the slavery of welfare.

                • chedolf says:

                  This is a wider and deeper legitimacy crisis than I could ever have imagined. Such malignancy, such parasitism.

                  Nick Land: “Confident prediction: Since all Western societies have now irrecoverably lost all sense of common responsible government, they will loot the shit out of themselves until it’s over.”

                • Atavistic Morality says:

                  Hardly a new concept, Hans-Hermann Hoppe has been talking about politicians in democracy being high time preference looters for decades.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Hoppe is pretty great.

                  Hoppe claims to be sort of an ancap but he is in reality VERY VERY close to us in the way he thinks and in some ways more advanced than most of NRx.

                  Hoppe has basically echoed my view that we need a Final Solution to the Leftist Problem… what he said is they need to be “physically removed from society”.

                • Not Tom says:

                  Anyone IQ 110-120 can make HCQ. There is not going to be much profit margin.

                  Isn’t this true of most, if not all drugs? The billions it supposedly costs to develop them all go toward discovering that some new or previously unimportant compound is effective at treating some new or previously unimportant disease, and of course the subsequent clinical trials. The formulas themselves are generally not too complicated, which is why generic replacements show up almost immediately in foreign countries, and immediately after patent expiration in the USA.

                  Possibly HCQ is already cheaper than most because of where it was designed to be deployed, but most drugs can be produced very cheaply in terms of per-unit cost if there’s an incentive to ramp up production.

                  Omar is probably right, of course; the bureaucrats will find a way to make this very expensive for consumers and highly profitable for themselves. OPEC learned how to manipulate prices by intentionally and openly constraining supply; the US medical bureaucracy learned how to manipulate prices by “accidentally” turning a single easily mass-produced commodity into dozens of low-yield snowflakes thus incidentally constraining supply of each, and opacifying its inefficiency through insurance middlemen.

        • jim says:

          The crisis is not going to be over until we have drive by testing, and drive by pickup of meds in every major big box parking lot.

          • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

            The effect of mass testing on-demand will be a perpetual stream of false positives (rate is already high, meaning a lot of CV19 case and death numbers are fake) keeping fear porn alive, while actual CV19 is eliminated by the resulting application of the Zelenko-type protocols.

            • jim says:

              What is keeping fear alive is exponential growth in the number of deaths. If the number of deaths stops growing, no one is going to care about the number of positives.

              By the way, total deaths from all causes has dropped dramatically, probably because Wu Flu protocols are stopping the spread of all flues, because people are less exposed to adverse weather, less exposed to opportunities for violence, having fewer traffic accidents, and having fewer unnecessary hospital stays.

              Hospitals are biased in favor of hospitalization, because if someone dies because he needed hospitalization, and was not hospitalized, it is a big problem for the hospital, but if someone dies because he was hospitalized, and did not need hospitalization, no one can prove he did not need hospitalization, so no problem. Fewer hospitalizations, considerably fewer deaths.

              • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                The “number of deaths” is not the number of deaths, R0 is a meaningless metaphor at this point (hint: it’s not a constant, it’s a distribution, truncated at the high modes by distancing), “CFR” is not the actual CFR, etc — but try explaining that to the fear-porners and their customers. You have to read the fine print and the Arxiv sites.

                If there has been a huge exponential spike in excess deaths from pneumonia (relative to secular trend), it’s real. If not, false positives and misattribution of most deaths “with” CV19 as deaths “from”. I don’t think the real data or things one can infer the real numbers from will be out for some time, but people on arxiv are making some educated guesses.

                • The Cominator says:

                  I suspect you are right about universal testing…

                  In my boredom I watched a clip of enemy media about Fauci and Trump (I’m trying to find out why he won’t push back against this little fucker) and Morning Joe on MSNBC wants mass testing…

                  They are up to something. I suspect the tests we are likely to get are not likely to be the ones the South Koreans got.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Mass testing is a way of muddying the waters to prolong the state of emergency. If it already did a sweep through the population in late 2019, lots of people with no symptoms will test positive for bits of virus RNA, or antibodies (if it’s even known what those are at this point), so perpetual high alert.

                  There are numerous reports, including myself and several family members, of remarkably CV-like remarkably contagious infections weeks or months before the presumed arrival of the epidemic from China, and probably similar realizations happening in China.

                • The Cominator says:

                  I had not one but TWO really bad flus this season (in short succession) one of which (the 1st) caused me to have walking pneumonia (to the point where I finally went through the trouble of getting a script for antibiotics) here in FLORIDA.

                  Its quite possible the 1st one was Corona-chan as it started off with a brief fever and chills…

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Everyone but myself got it despite a flu shot, I got it despite escaping illness every other winter the past decade or two, the ones under 60 had the fever/chills/throat constriction for 4-6 days and another week or more of a cough. In the ones over 70 the same but the cough lasted 2 months. It spread quickly in a way we never saw before (despite precautions due to kids/elderly), some people saw the doctor as you did when they never normally do so for typical flu.

                  Of course it’s after the fact sampling but seemingly everyone I talk to around here (in your old stomping ground) has similar stories of a bizarre super-flu in the family before the “official” coronavirus.

                  Similarly, Victor Davis Hanson has an article asking if California already has “herd immunity” from its presumably earlier and bigger exposure to China and low case count.

                • Fred says:

                  >The “number of deaths” is not the number of deaths

                  I originally assumed the fatality numbers were reliable, but then it came out that Italy was attributing all deaths where the virus was present to the virus, whereas Germany was attributing deaths where the virus was present with comorbidities to the comorbidities.

                  So once you calculate excess deaths, most of the deaths would disappear.

                  >Victor Davis Hanson has an article asking if California already has “herd immunity” from its presumably earlier and bigger exposure to China and low case count.

                  I noticed that the places with the lowest death rates are places with the closest links to China.

                  So I’ve been wondering precisely the same thing here in Australia – apparently there were three flights per week from Wuhan to Australia, not to mention daily flights from wherever else in China. The virus would have gotten here no later than December. Assuming a three or four day doubling time, millions of people would have been infected in Australia by now – yet there’s only 26 deaths to date.

                • jim says:

                  It is entirely possible that an earlier pandemic of a disease related to Wu Flu spread around the world, and no one noticed because the symptoms were a mild flu, and the earlier epidemic gave people resistance to the new epidemic.

                • Fred says:

                  Why assume an earlier pandemic? Simplest explanation is that it’s one epidemic that just hits different places at different times depending on their “human proximity” (can’t think of a better term) to China. Australia and California have very high “human proximity” to China (thousands of people entering from China every day for months before travel was shut down), whereas east coast US and Europe have lower human proximity to China, and South America and Africa have lower proximity still.

                  Another possibility (not mutually exclusive) is different strains with different mortality rates.

                • pdimov says:

                  Several anecdotal reports of very similar symptoms in November (except nobody dies), including one from Spandrell (IIRC), who however seems to be deleting his tweets now so I can’t link to it. (“Mild” is not the right word, it’s just not deadly.)

                  V. likely the S-cov strain.

          • The Cominator says:

            That will take far too long, Trump is going to have to take radical bold action or we’ll have a real depression and then nothing will save him.

            Its Trump’s base that hates the closures and thinks its bullshit. The fickle new Trump supporters won’t stay with him with a depression and he’ll lose much of his base for cucking on this too.

          • Karl says:

            If there really is a cure, no need for drive by testing. Someone who has mild symptoms doesn’t need not to do anything, those who get pneumonia are treated.

            Why do think that drive by testing is necessary?

            • jim says:

              There is ample evidence that the sooner meds start, the better the outcome. Anyone that gets a temperature should get tested the same day in the parking lot of nearest big box store, and if positive, take meds the same day.

              Also, the sooner meds start, the less he is going to spread Wu Flu.

              A big part of the problem is that we medicalized the problem, and hospitals spread the disease, as they spread many other diseases. Drive by medicine will save lives, the holy rituals of medicine are killing people.

              A huge advantage of private hospitals is that with a nice room, and nice food service, you are a lot less likely to die of hospital infection and iatrogenic injury, but home is safer than even a private hospital.

              • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                Italy and Spain are giving out HCQ like candy now. It is utterly clear that Zelenko was right, and (what else is new) the leftist media organs are lethal to their own.

                In New York there are now not only patients, but upper level media personnel brought back from the brink by HCQ, and other media people who died apparently from not getting the HCQ. Despite this Fox News is the only channel airing reports about HCQ, Zelenko, and replications of Zelenko. Story ratio is 10 to 1 pro HCQ on Fox, 20 to 1 contra HCQ treatment on CNN and MSNBC.

                If Cuomo’s brother admits to being prescribed HCQ it will be uncomfortable for the MSM — if he gets seriously ill and is saved by it, extinction level event.

                • The Cominator says:

                  I think Trump should seriously issue an executive order mandating the detention of anyone including within the press or academic medicine who casts doubt on the effectiveness of HCQ. And that furthermore that for the duration that no court order for them to be released will be honored.

                  I don’t want to hear anything about their civil liberties or free speech while we are all under quarantine.

                  That should bring this thing to a quick end and I think he could get away with it.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Brazil is doing immediate HCQ+AZT at onset of symptoms, with Bolsonaro’s encouragement.

                  Twitter deleted pro HCQ tweets by Bolsonaro and a pro-Zelenko tweet by Giuliani.

                  The interesting thing about the MSM position on HCQ is not so much that they kill people for sport, that is old news. It’s that the high likelihood of imminent proof that they are killing people, even their own people, even their fellow blue state progs and fellow comrades in the MSM, does not bother them in the least. It’s like a real time, slow motion demonstration of Jim’s description of the Khmer Rouge internal dynamics, livestreamed to a billion people.

        • pdimov says:

          Should take 12-13 days if current trend holds. Call it two weeks.

          • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

            It looks like for both cases and deaths, in both the JHU and CDC counting ( i.e., the hyperinflated and superinflated number of deaths nominally due to CV19) the peak daily increase was April 4. This is also true for the New York City and New York state (excluding NYC) data.

            Earlier I thought March 30 and Jim had said something similar (maybe the 29th) but there was a jump shortly after. This “peak” seems more robust. It is not driven by NYC, the peak is sharper in the rest of the country. Going forward, nowhere else in USA has the density of New York City or the level of lethal stupidity demonstrated by its government; HCQ use is widespread and increasing, social distancing and masks work. Hospitals are empty around the country. If the cumulative death curve is more or less a sigmoid, the estimate is to double the current number of deaths.

            So 15-16K as the eventual CDC or JHU numbers of CV19. Nothing close to 100K unless there are some big surprises coming. And those numbers to collapse when nominal versus real case counts are sorted out statistically (excess pneumonia deaths; causal attribution of multifactor deaths).

            Jim should really take credit as 2026 is coming early and the prog elites are putting on a Khmer Rouge show straight out of his Pol Pot stories. All that’s missing is something absurdist, blatant and dangerous like virus-based coup attempts against Trump or nominating (Barack) Obama as the DNC candidate.

            • BC says:

              HCQ use is widespread and increasing, social distancing and masks work.

              I’m starting to see towns mandating masks, if NYC does the same then public transit should become a lot less dangerous. Social distancing is and continues to be a stupid and ineffective version of wearing masks.

              • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                Standing 2m apart is a clown show, but the other behavioral changes that have come into effect along with the 2m (even before masks) do reduce the rate of transmission.

                The effects of this should have been seen sooner in the death and case counts, the time lag is not that big, which may indicate not a failure of quarantine to slow the disease, but that a compensating number of new cases and deaths are coming from exponentially escalated testing among the elderly.

                • pdimov says:

                  The time lag between symptoms and death (or recovery) is ten days.

                  Case counts, who knows. This number doesn’t mean much. You could probably reverse-engineer the case number from going back ten days and dividing deaths by some made up CFR (multiplying by 100 should be approximate enough.) Then compare it to what the reported number was.

            • pdimov says:

              >It looks like for both cases and deaths, in both the JHU and CDC counting ( i.e., the hyperinflated and superinflated number of deaths nominally due to CV19) the peak daily increase was April 4.

              You called it a bit too early, but you already know that.

              >So 15-16K as the eventual CDC or JHU numbers of CV19.

              Should be falsified in a few days too.

              • Strannik says:

                And there is more good news out there, the Israelis will be bringing out a possible vaccine by June 1;

                https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/04/08/report-israeli-scientists-to-test-virus-vaccine-on-humans-by-june-1/

              • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                Passive aggressive fear porn is functionally equivalent to shilling.

                Your prediction was 100k deaths by April 15 – 17, which requires deaths per day 6x higher than the last 3 days (12k vs 1900), and 20-25x higher if the deaths per day increase smoothly. That’s more than a doubling every 2 days.

                You appear to not understand the difference between exponential growth (we are out of that phase long ago) and a sigmoid curve (seems to fit, and we have been in its linear phase for a while), and are going with muh exponential. If you are actually using some other model to think about this, such as “whatever Dr Fauci and Brix say”, just say so.

                Never mind that we are talking about counts inflated by policy (“presumptive” cases + deaths “with”), false positives, no discounting for multiple conditions, no comparison to Excess Deaths from respiratory conditions, no calculating
                Mortality Displacement instead of deaths, etc. We are speaking only of the Officially official CDC numbers. Also, sigmoid assumes past and future are symmetrical around the peak rather than HCQ and social isolation actually being effective.

                In the sigmoid model, mis-judging the date of peak daily deaths by X days means an underestimate of roughly 2x the death count during those X days. So another way to put this, if you want to do something other than snark, is to ask when you think the peak will in fact occur. New CDC cases (not deaths) are the same over the latest 5 days (Apr 4-9) as the 5 days before that.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Should say 12-15x higher per day (25-30k deaths per day) under smooth increases. This is slightly less than doubling every 2 days but not by much. Wildly implausible just by looking at the trajectory of case counts.

                • pdimov says:

                  >Passive aggressive fear porn is functionally equivalent to shilling.

                  You aren’t very good at being wrong.

                  >Your prediction was 100k deaths by April 15 – 17

                  Yes, and when it turns out to be wrong, and you call me out for it, I won’t call you a passive-aggressive shill.

                  >You appear to not understand the difference between exponential growth and a sigmoid curve

                  > if you want to do something other than snark, is to ask when you think the peak will in fact occur.

                  These two statements don’t make sense together.

                  But my answer is, 20 days from now.

                • Not Tom says:

                  You appear to not understand the difference between exponential growth (we are out of that phase long ago) and a sigmoid curve (seems to fit, and we have been in its linear phase for a while), and are going with muh exponential.

                  And the Richard Epstein fanbois are refusing to differentiate between pre-suppression and post-suppression models.

                  We are flattening the curve. I don’t agree with that policy – we should obliterate the curve, not flatten it – but that is the policy. Most states, and indeed most countries, are still in a state between California soft lockdown and South Korea hard lockdown. A flattened exponential curve looks exactly like a sigmoid curve.

                  Pre-suppression, muh exponential growth. Post-suppression, muh sigmoid curve. If we end suppression now without changing anything else, we revert from muh sigmoid to muh exponential. China tried exactly this, and saw an immediate second wave, because they jumped the gun.

                  I don’t listen to flacks like Fauci. I barely even know who he is. I don’t listen to fools like Epstein either. I look at the data, the case counts and CFRs and test results, and the research papers as far as I can understand them, and my interpretation of that data is that (a) we’ve managed to bring down R0 significantly, but not below 1, and (b) we still have no ability to control the spread beyond the unfortunately heavy handed measures being taken now.

                  I am very optimistic about the HCQ cocktail. I am very optimistic about the new information being uncovered about ventilators and ICUs. I think this points to, as Trump calls it, a light at the end of the tunnel. I think that if these things pan out, and they probably will, we should be able to quickly shift to a regime of masks, contact tracing, and early intervention, and subsequent deaths will drop to almost zero. End of April sounds totally plausible to me, give or take a few weeks at most.

                  However, if we jump the gun like China did because of cabin fever, we will see another sharp spike in deaths. And it will be much, much harder politically to impose lockdown the second time. People are sort of used to this right now, but if you tell them things are back to normal and then tell them oopsie, go back home and don’t come out… then you’ve effectively ended whatever trust and goodwill those people may have had.

                  Just be patient. People are working on the problem. I don’t mean “public health officials”, I don’t mean the faggots at the WHO, I mean good people – doctors, nurses and researchers who are doing as many tests as they can and treating as many patients as they can with the newest therapies, and there is still no shortage of patients. A few more weeks of waiting isn’t going to kill anyone – or at least a lot fewer than not waiting.

                • jim says:

                  > Most states, and indeed most countries, are still in a state between California soft lockdown and South Korea hard lockdown.

                  South Korea and Taiwan is not in lockdown and never were in lockdown. People are still going to work in the crowded big city. They never stopped going to work in the crowded big city.

                  They are contact tracing and locking down contacts, which is a very small number of people, and require sanitary practices everywhere for everyone – but sanitary practices do not interfere with people’s work and lives.

                  We are unable to do contact tracing because we lack state capacity, and because the CDC blocked testing for a long time for religious and political reasons.

                  > then you’ve effectively ended whatever trust and goodwill those people may have had.

                  No one should have trust and goodwill in the government. It is politically disadvantageous to us collectively, and any individual who individually has trust and goodwill towards the government is at risk of individual bad consequences, because we have massive state dysfunction.

                  I see the same blindness to state dysfunction as I see towards female sexual misconduct in the workplace, though you are allowed to see it through cracks, because you are allowed to blame it on one political party or the other. But you are not allowed to notice state dysfunction of the permanent government, the judiciary, the bureaucracy, and the professoriat, only the merely elected officials.

                • Not Tom says:

                  I’ve heard differently regarding SK, but alright, we can use China as an example then. Even if they’ve understated their death counts, the severe measures they had to take to get them down to wherever they are now are not really in question.

                  We’ve already blown way past SK’s worst possible projections. As you say, contact tracing is possible when the number of cases is small and known, but here in the USA we still do not have a firm handle on that.

                  Then again, as Moldbug says, we don’t even know how many people are in the country, period – how can we know how many are infected? I try not to be that pessimistic, but worst case scenario is that we can never do contact tracing properly because it’s actually a coup-complete problem. I hope that turns out to be a non-issue.

                • pdimov says:

                  >Pre-suppression, muh exponential growth. Post-suppression, muh sigmoid curve. If we end suppression now without changing anything else, we revert from muh sigmoid to muh exponential.

                  Exactly. Sigmoids don’t just fall from the sky, something has to make them happen. This something is either (1) the virus runs out of people to infect or (2) people stop infecting others (R drops below 1).

                  Predicting a natural sigmoid (without changes in behavior) when just a few percent of the population are infected presupposes 80%+ immunity. Not impossible in principle, I like this outcome and hope for it, but one shouldn’t be surprised if it doesn’t pan out.

                • jim says:

                  By the time a new flu runs its course, and Wu Flu is yet another new flu, deadlier than most, less deadly than Spanish Flu, a substantial proportion of the population has been infected and gained immunity.

                  If one percent death rate, that is two million people. Have to achieve significant reduction in lethality before allowing it to run its course. Looks like the Dr. Zelenko protocol achieves sufficient reduction in lethality to allow it to run its course, but we will have to remove the institutional obstacles to the Zelenko protocol.

                  This would amount to Trump declaring himself high priest, or like King Solomon, purging the current priesthood, which is likely to require at least a small start on the Cominator’s hopes and dreams.

                  The priesthood might capitulate without the need to actually make a start on the Cominator program, but it is going to require a realistic fear of a start. One way Trump might cover such a threat in legality is to tell them that if some peer reviewed studies give results that turn out to be wrong, there is going to be consequences, we are going to look into how those results were obtained, they are not going to get the kid gloves treatment that Global Warming fraud has been getting, that if malpractice is revealed, those engaged in malpractice will pay in full for lives lost.

                • The Cominator says:

                  The US government is obviously too bloated and incompetent to function as well as Japan and South Korea, even if it wanted this crisis to end (and the bureaucracy doesn’t because they want to destroy Trump and his economy) they wouldn’t be able to do contact tracing the right the way Japan and South Korea can.

                  So basically the virus has to be allowed to run its course mitigated by the Zelenko protocol. Trump’s reelection and avoiding a depression are worth whatever marginal lives would be lost by a quick reopening… why are we all so squeamish and hysterical about losing a few extra boomers to the holocough (oy vey the six gorillion).

                • Pooch says:

                  It really is pointless talking about proper mitigation strategy at this point. Regardless of what the data shows, we now know, with certainty, that the Cathedral will push for more lockdown, perhaps indefinite lockdown. Cuomo has repeatedly stated it’s worth it to even save one life. These people are insane and going to push for lockdown until the vaccine comes. Not only that they are now discussing bullshit like blacks are disproportionaly affected.

                  The current unemployment rate is 10%. It was 20% during the great depression with people living in shanties of Hoovertown. We are rapidly heading there and perhaps past it. The only curve worth discussing to be flattened is the unemployment one.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @pooch

                  Indefinite lockdown means starvation.

                • Not Tom says:

                  So basically the virus has to be allowed to run its course

                  No.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @Not Tom

                  The lockdown has begun to disrupt the food supply.

                • pdimov says:

                  Lockdowns are not in the Cathedral’s interest, and quick reopening is not in Trump’s interest.

                  I wonder where the idea that the Cathedral should demand lockdowns comes from. Is this the usual American-libertarian idea that the Government wants to enslave the population due to some irrational totalitarian impulse? The Cathedral is parasitic and feeds off prosperity. Without an economy, it remains without a source of income except printing money, and this doesn’t work indefinitely.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “Lockdowns are not in the Cathedral’s interest, and quick reopening is not in Trump’s interest.”

                  The Cathedral is MAD, they absolutely want the lockdowns to continue until at least Trump is out of office.

                  “he Cathedral is parasitic and feeds off prosperity. Without an economy, it remains without a source of income except printing money, and this doesn’t work indefinitely.”

                  You are assuming that the priests understand or even care about economics, proper understanding of economics is impure and unholy. Khmer Rogue style controls over Trump voters in flyover country is pure and holy. Their goals are not rational.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “No.”

                  Well you probably can’t stop the spread of this anyway.

                  Trump’s reelection and a quick economic recovery are worth a marginally higher toll of dead urban boomers.

                  If you are so concerned about a few predominantly urban NAM democrat urban boomers it would be best to provide free of charge isolation facilities for people in high risk categories and otherwise get Corona-chan over with as quickly as possible.

                • Not Tom says:

                  Trump’s reelection and a quick economic recovery are worth a marginally higher toll of dead urban boomers.

                  This being some kind of disaster for Trump is just one more item in the long list of things you’ve been dead wrong about and are doubling down on anyway. The majority approves of Trump’s handling of SARS2, the media and the Democratic party have lost a lot of credibility, and his approval is higher than ever – all while under the current lockdown. This might have been bad for your 401k, but it hasn’t been bad for Trump.

                  That doesn’t mean his approval will continue to go up the longer this goes on, obviously, but most people show a smidge of humility when they’ve made so many bad predictions, rather than autistically blather on about how they must still be right (any day now, you’ll see!).

                  Wu Flu is yet another new flu

                  Come on dude, it’s not a flu. There’s a difference between informally calling it wuflu and actually saying, literally, that it’s another flu. It’s not even the same family of virus, and if the latest theories prove to be true, it also doesn’t have the same symptoms or pathology as any known strain of influenza.

                  1% death rate isn’t looking very likely either. Apparent CFR started to rise about two weeks ago and is still rising, now nearly 4% in the US. That may be on the high side if we are still undercounting cases, but by the same token, very low CFR has been an artifact of rapid growth – of deaths lagging cases and cases multiplying quickly. As new cases start to slow down, apparent CFR goes up. The only countries still reporting CFR 10 are probably systematically undercounting cases, but 1% appears optimistic. Maybe some early strains were 1% but the ones going around lately are worse.

                • jim says:

                  1% is plausible, and it looks like if you just let it burn through, it burns out after infecting a majority of the population. In which case, two million deaths in the USA.

                  It is another flu, but not just another flu – flu is a random collection of similar viruses that rely largely on airborne spread by coughing, and are in substantial part positive stranded RNA viruses that are capable of exchanging genetic material with each other – capable of having virus sex with each other. It is an unusually deadly flu that produces effects that other flues do not, and attacks systems in your body that other flues do not, probably because somewhere along the line it likely miscegenated with HIV virus, which is not a flu, but is yet another positive stranded RNA virus.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “That doesn’t mean his approval will continue to go up the longer this goes on, obviously, but most people show a smidge of humility when they’ve made so many bad predictions, rather than autistically blather on about how they must still be right (any day now, you’ll see!).”

                  Jim hes lying here in a way not normally allowed. The skeptics have been generally right not wrong about this.

                  Its also (as I’ve repeatedly said) impossible to really calculate the death rate without knowing the number of cases.

                  There will not be 2 million deaths or anywhere near that there will not even be 80000 (the seasonal flu 2019-2020).

                  Now it COULD mutate into something nastier but that is not likely.

                • jim says:

                  > Jim hes lying here in a way not normally allowed. The skeptics have been generally right not wrong about this

                  There is genuine uncertainty about the potential and likely scale of the deaths, and a lot of predictions have been made by a lot of people, some of them unreasonable, and some of which turned out to be wildly wrong.

                  You both need to tell us which predictions, made when, by whom, turned out to be badly wrong, and which predictions turned out reasonable. Give us some links.

                • pdimov says:

                  >there will not even be 80000

                  120-160K, assuming no “quick reopening”.

                • pdimov says:

                  >The Cathedral is MAD

                  The Cathedral is starving. Journalists are being laid off. Media is going bankrupt. Colleges are going bankrupt. Censorship departments at YouTube and Twitter are inoperative.

                  Their voters don’t fare that well either. Cities are hard hit for obvious reasons. Blacks, Muslims and immigrants are hard hit for equally obvious reasons.

                  The Cathedral is stupid, I give you that, but it’s not completely devoid of brain. If this continues, expect them to suddenly discover the plight of the working class caused by evil Trump’s lockdowns.

                  Coronachan is chemotherapy for America. Healthy tissue suffers, but the tumor will die first.

                • Pooch says:

                  You both need to tell us which predictions, made when, by whom, turned out to be badly wrong, and which predictions turned out reasonable. Give us some links.

                  Professor Briggs has continuously presented a strong case on why Coronavirus is no worse then the Swine flu and why the models used by Fauci and Brix are bullshit. It is their models, and only their models, that apparently all mitigation policy is being based off of. I would recommend reading most of his material from his coronavirus series.

                  https://wmbriggs.com/post/30278/

                • Pooch says:

                  Coronavirus is likely a real crisis (like swine flu was), but the Cathedral has now high-jacked it. The cathedral has and is derangingly against HCQ as a form of treatment and is using creative counting of deaths (with covid instead of “of” covid) to keep the death count artificially high.

                  Why? The more deaths, the longer the lockdown. The longer the lockdown, the more opportunity for it to enact more socialism. They want us waiting in line for government cheese.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Fauci is now saying that he never believed in muh models (after the fact because they were so wrong and he wants to escape blame) and based the whole batshit response to this virus on muh Italy.

                  https://www.foxnews.com/media/fauci-coronavirus-mitigation-programs-models-china-italy

                  But the models originally projected millions of boomers were going to die of the holocough and now they have been revised down to less than 100000. Looks like the death is now on track to be 35-50k in the US (which is more than I thought but far less than the panicmongers predicted, and also it appears some blue states are padding their numbers and are still slow to use Cloroquine until its too late).

                  https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-uk-report-projects-2-million-deaths-without-action-2020-3

                  Fake and gay all around.

                • Not Tom says:

                  There will not be 2 million deaths or anywhere near that there will not even be 80000 (the seasonal flu 2019-2020).

                  Where are you getting these insane numbers from?

                  The worst flu season in the US in recent history was 2017-2018 with 60,000 deaths. Every other season has been between 30k and 50k, with 40k being the average. That is the threshold for your “less than the flu” prediction.

                  Don’t try to move the goalposts by “reporting” a figure that hasn’t been published yet, and for which preliminary estimates have a much lower ceiling, never mind the actual tally. When you said “it kills less than the flu”, you knew and everyone else here knew that you were referring to the ubiquitously-cited 40,000 per year.

                  And this is without taking into account, as others have already pointed out, the fact that no significant preventative measures were taken for any previous flu season (aside from vaccines that we both agree aren’t generally effective), and that “the seasonal flu” is an entire category of viruses compared to this one coronavirus with maybe a half-dozen mutations.

                  There will not be 2 million deaths

                  Because there will not be a total elimination of controls. No one, including Trump, is that stupid or politically suicidal. No one predicted 2 million deaths with controls.

                  We’re just starting to see random testing, and obviously the results are radically different by area. The Gangelt (Germany) study estimated about a 15% infection rate, and that was an area hit very badly. We should expect to see similar numbers for a place like New York; let’s be generous and bump it up to 20%. That means without controls we’d have 5x as many infections and deaths. It’s at about 8k now, meaning with no controls, there’d be 40k in New York alone, which is more than seasonal flu across the entire country in most years.

                  I’ll say again, the difference between California and New York is the difference between controls and no controls. The worst part of CA is LA, which is nowhere near as bad as anywhere in NY. California had cases – untraceable cases implying community transmission – much earlier than any other state except for Washington. Why are states like Florida, Louisiana, Massachusetts and Illinois about to overtake California and Washington, and Ohio and Indiana are fast approaching, when all of these states are less dense, have less travel, and had much more time to prepare?

                  https://wmbriggs.com/post/30278/

                  I RTWT. I don’t understand any of his graphs. All of them are projecting bell curves onto time-series plots that, yes, are a little noisy, but haven’t really shown signs of even flattening yet, never mind collapsing. Not a single log-scale or log-log plot.

                  Briggs is a good dude but I don’t think he’s being objective on this subject. His frequent interspersing of actual data with “muh economy” rhetoric isn’t helping. He doesn’t make any arguments from epidemiology at all, just doing model extrapolation, and there’s no reason to believe his models are more accurate than anyone else’s. They’re probably less accurate, since they are much more simplistic.

                • jim says:

                  Anyone who fails to use log scale graphs is not a good source of information on pandemics.

                • Not Tom says:

                  flu is a random collection of similar viruses

                  …of which SARS2 is not a member. Flu is influenza, SARS2 is coronavirus. They aren’t even the same phylum, never mind the same family!

                  Flu isn’t a generic term for “RNA virus”, otherwise rabies and polio would also be the flu.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “s frequent interspersing of actual data with “muh economy” rhetoric”

                  Only a commie or a prog would ever say “muh economy” as if it doesn’t matter particularly in Trump’s reelection year. What doesn’t matter is how many old urban NAM boomers (Trump voting boomers by and large don’t stay in big northern cities) die.

                  I haven’t even read this Briggs but what exactly is he wrong about?

                • Not Tom says:

                  If you want controls you should do it this way.

                  The only part that’s not behind a paywall is the part that’s saying we can’t wait for a vaccine.

                  Which no one here is saying we should do.

                  “If you want controls you should remove controls”. Great, real insightful.

                • Not Tom says:

                  I haven’t even read this Briggs but what exactly is he wrong about?

                  I literally spelled out my objections in detail in the post you quoted from.

                  Once again, you demonstrate that you won’t read or listen to what other people have to say. You just skim everything and immediately throw out anything that doesn’t sound favorable to your position.

                • pdimov says:

                  >I RTWT. I don’t understand any of his graphs.

                  Briggs’s first model died a horrible death. His second model (with a much higher peak) is holding up so far.

                • Not Tom says:

                  Anyone who fails to use log scale graphs is not a good source of information on pandemics.

                  I went through it again, just to make absolutely sure I didn’t miss one. It turns out that there is one log-scale plot, the “Reported Cases & Deaths USA” chart. For some reason that’s the only one.

                  So I erred in saying there was no log-scale. The one log-scale graph, however, doesn’t tell the story he wants it to tell. He extrapolates the starting line back to make it look like a nice power function, but it would be just as easy to draw a straight line from the actual starting point and conclude that it almost became concave upward but we managed to get it under control and bring it back to basically a straight line (on log scale).

                  In fact it is only since April 1 or so that it appears to be slowing down just a little – but it is still not flat, not even close! His extrapolations are completely arbitrary curve fits that might be right or might be wrong, there’s no way to know.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “Anyone who fails to use log scale graphs is not a good source of information on pandemics.”

                  If you are referring to Briggs I would say in his defense that logarithmic scale graphs often confuse people without some kind of technical or mathematical background.

                  In one of my past jobs we were trying (in vain) to explain to an idiot fire marshal that going from 100 to 120 decibels for an alarm system was not 20% louder but 4x louder because decibels were a logarithmic unit.

                  https://twitter.com/mitchellvii/status/1249078494736396294

                  Briggs main point is right… any sane society would have all the so called public health experts LITERALLY burned at the stake, shot or stoned as false prophets at this point. They are just another useless part of the priesthood which knows nothing except how to cause trouble that we would be better off getting rid of.

                • Not Tom says:

                  Apology for the repeated posts but just to be clear, what I mean by the alternate interpretation above is: we started with relatively low R0 because, in the beginning, we were attempting to do contact tracing, not effectively enough to actually stop the spread but still somewhat effectively.

                  Then we blew up R0 because we ended contact tracing, brought home those infected travelers and cruise ship passengers, had local outbreaks in WA (large) and CA (small), and even some superspreader events e.g. in NY.

                  Then we stopped European travel and many states/cities started imposing lockdowns. That was in mid-March, and over the next 1-2 weeks is when we start to see the curve collapse slightly.

                  The point being that, yes, it is possible to look at the graph in isolation and interpret it as an epidemic running its course, but also possible to interpret it as the [mostly] successful imposition of controls with a 1-2 week lag due to incubation and asymptomatic carriers. And unfortunately (a) it’s still too early to know for certain which of the above is accurate, and (b) even if we were discussing this 2 weeks later and had the data, it would still tell us nothing at all about what we’d have seen without controls or with fewer controls. We didn’t run an A-B test.

                  Based on random testing that is just starting up, it is reasonable to assume that between 1% and 15% of the U.S. population has been exposed, depending on the region. If so, that means the curve is not flattening because of herd immunity, it is flattening because of controls. Take away controls, and it will cease to be flat, unless we are able to reliably quarantine those still infected.

                  Briggs and TC think we should disregard the models and hang the modelers because they’re slightly off in their projections – but we are talking about a factor of 20-30%, not an order of magnitude. 100k was obviously too much of a nice round number to be a precise estimate anyway. So if only 80,000 people die, and we prevented it from being 800,000 through the imposition of various controls, that means we’d have been better off doing nothing? Ridiculous.

                  Briggs says this:

                  anything under 100 thousand is a blown forecast. They cannot claim “social distancing worked even better than we thought!”

                  Ok, but… why? Isn’t it possible that the models underestimated people taking voluntary measures beyond the lockdown, like cancelling travel plans and wearing masks? Not to mention having incomplete and inaccurate data on existing infection rates? The implication is that if the models were high, it must be because they overestimated the infectiousness/severity of the disease, but we can’t know that.

                  Climate models have been directionally wrong. They’re wrong qualitatively, not just quantitatively. The status-quo CV models, assuming they are wrong at all (we still don’t know that), may be off by a small percentage. The new argument/goalpost around “died from vs. died with” is cheap and petty and ridiculous, as death accounting for CV is consistent with death accounting for the flu and other infectious diseases.

                • jim says:

                  > Take away controls, and it will cease to be flat, unless we are able to reliably quarantine those still infected.

                  Vietnam does not have those controls, in the sense that they are not shutting down the economy and ending social life, but they do reliably quarantine carriers – all carriers for two weeks. This works. They make the quarantine centers nice, so that people cheerfully volunteer for a two week all expenses paid vacation.

                  The joke is that North Korea simply shoots all carriers. Whatever North Korea is doing, it is working, and what Vietnam is doing is working.

                • chedolf says:

                  And this is without taking into account, as others have already pointed out, the fact that no significant preventative measures were taken for any previous flu season (aside from vaccines that we both agree aren’t generally effective), and that “the seasonal flu” is an entire category of viruses compared to this one coronavirus with maybe a half-dozen mutations.

                  Briggs either doesn’t understand this or pretends not to understand.

                  https://i.imgur.com/PzsdTSZ.png

                  https://i.imgur.com/zO1lzln.png

                • The Cominator says:

                  Scott Adams is a very very smart guy and i respect his opinion but the original muh 2 million model assumed mitigation.

                  So the modelers still should all be executed.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  Urbanite bugmen think that it’s just “muh economy” because they think food appears in grocery stores by magic. As a result, they have begun to ban growing food (seeds are now “not essential). The food supply has been disrupted.

                  I’m with Cominator on this. Any professional expert urbanite bugman who fails to understand where his food comes from needs to be executed.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  These medical quacks need the Cominator solution done to them.

                  https://kprcradio.iheart.com/featured/walton-and-johnson/content/2020-04-03-hungry-broke-vermont-deems-seeds-nonessential-during-crisis/

                  Because there is asymptomatic carriers, every single graph, projection and model is garbage… produced by urbanite experts who have no clue where their food comes from.

                • The Cominator says:

                  The leftist insanity of Vermont is weird there is nothing truly urban about it…

                  There is no “urban” in the state of Vermont, NONE. There are about two streets in Burlington (maybe also Montpelier the “capital” but I’ve never been to Montpelier) that sort of look urban on Friday and Saturday night.

                  I lived in that state once (unfortunately) for about three months.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  The governor of Vermont, and others, are all taking orders from urbanite bugmen in NYC, LA, DC.

                  They need to be destroyed.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “The governor of Vermont, and others, are all taking orders from urbanite bugmen in NYC, LA, DC.

                  They need to be destroyed.”

                  Oh yes I completely agree but Vermont native leftism defies most of the standard explanations its just psychologically sort of fascinating.

                  Its like the last holdout of the original Anglo-Puritan rural progressivism that most of the Anglo-Puritan rural types abandoned when they decided that Woodrow Wilson was a huge fuckup and voted en masse for Warren G Harding ahd his successor (ironically from Vermont) Calvin Coolidge.

                  Now if you cross the border to New Hampshire (a similar state in many ways but New Hampshire actually has some urban parts) its not like that… all the leftist there are invaders from my state Taxachussetts (New Hampshire people are the best people in New England by far).

                  Not sure what exactly happened in Vermont that turned them or kept them leftist… I’d like to understand it perhaps if it could be understand we could do as some here dream of (but I think is doomed to fail) keep leftism at bay long term without being willing to shed serious blood.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  This is not happening “just in Vermont.” The food supply is being disrupted everywhere. Grocery stores have empty shelves. Vermont isn’t the only place where seeds and gardening/farming supplies are being deemed “non-essential.”

                  All based on fake numbers and graphs.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  Here is the governor of Michigan banning seeds.

                  https://twitter.com/joesichspach/status/1248653376931258370

                  It’s not just Vermont. These urbanite scumbags and quacks are disrupting the food supply and banning the growing of food, all based on fake numbers, fake graphs, and fake percentages.

    • The Cominator says:

      https://yourvoiceamerica.tv/yva-4-2-20/

      I know Dr. Shiva is a dot indian (and I innately distrust them because they tend to have the worst characteristics of jews without their good qualities) but this is a very interesting discussion on the nature of the scam (and I don’t agree with everything he says)…

      And also this Dr. Fauci is a BIG POWERFUL GUY in the cathedral command in control… everyone in biological academia is apparently afraid of him because he controls their funding.

      • R7 Rocket says:

        Dr. Fauci needs to be standing in front of a firing squad, instead of standing in front of cameras.

  23. Not Tom says:

    Interesting aside: the CDC has now finally cottoned on to the fact that masks work, and is asking people to wear any kind of masks outside, even homemade ones if that’s all they can manage. Also, on some local boards I’ve seen requests for people to help sew masks for hospitals, meaning the hospitals are also wising up on PPE.

    It looks bad if you get caught up in the minutiae, but zoom out and it appears that the big bureaucracies are all falling in line, one by one. The FDA did an emergency approval for HCQ. The CDC is now (mostly) telling the truth about masks. Rapid-fire testing is around the corner.

    Executive authority works. Even weak and limited executive authority is better than the shitshow of priests and their rituals.

    • BC says:

      Watching the masks thing has been instructive on how social signaling behavior works. I warned family members for over month to wear masks, I gave out N95s I’d stocked up and no one wore them. I explained all the reasons why, I pointed out the South Koreans using them, etc. Until the moment the people in authority started saying it good idea, no I knew was using them and when I tried to using them in public I was treated as a social pariah.

      We could have a well run very functional civilization if the people at the top were not so fucking stupid.

      • Not Tom says:

        N-95s are great if you need to go out, you’re certain that you’re already healthy, and you can get one that’s properly rated for droplets (i.e. not the dust masks which are also called N-95). But that was never really the issue with the original CDC guidance against masks.

        The reason China, South Korea and the more intelligent countries made mask-wearing mandatory is to protect other people. Most people don’t realize they’re sick until several days after infection; many never realize it at all. While a conventional surgical mask or a t-shirt wrapped around your face may not be very effective at preventing you from catching the disease, it is quite effective at preventing you from transmitting it.

        Face masks are like a simple and inexpensive vaccine; easy to make, easy to deploy, no risk of side effects. They provide imperfect yet pretty good herd immunity to respiratory infections, but only if everyone wears one – or at least most people. It’s not about you or your family, it’s about R0.

        CDC bureaucrats wanted to prevent hoarding so that healthcare workers could stock up on N-95s. They should have been telling people the truth, with the exact opposite advice, as in: please don’t hoard N-95s because hospitals need them, but do stock up on surgical masks and wear them whenever you go out. Or better yet, just impose an emergency ban on the private sale of N-95s, and tell people to wear whatever masks they can find; no misinformation required. But this would require us to have an actual government, not an incompetent and sclerotic priesthood.

        Unfortunately this guidance is still “voluntary” and I fully expect that a majority of people won’t follow it. It has to be mandatory. 1 out of every 5 people wearing a mask, assuming we even get that many, isn’t going to slow the transmission very much.

        • BC says:

          The reason China, South Korea and the more intelligent countries made mask-wearing mandatory is to protect other people. Most people don’t realize they’re sick until several days after infection; many never realize it at all. While a conventional surgical mask or a t-shirt wrapped around your face may not be very effective at preventing you from catching the disease, it is quite effective at preventing you from transmitting it.

          Not quite correct. South Korea did a study of this during SARS and they found that people wearing any sort of masks even if the rest of people were not had lower rates of infection and often the infection was less dangerous. Viral load is an important factor with how sick you get and pretty much all cloth masks reduce the size of the viral load.

          • The Cominator says:

            The reason the government was advising against mask was to prevent a toilet paper situation… there just weren’t nearly enough of them to keep up with demand if they were recommended. They wanted to reserve the supplies for the hospitals.

            • BC says:

              The reason the government was advising against mask was to prevent a toilet paper situation… there just weren’t nearly enough of them to keep up with demand if they were recommended. They wanted to reserve the supplies for the hospitals.

              No shit sherlock.

          • Not Tom says:

            Yes, you are correct. Any face covering whatsoever is going to have more of a protective effect than none at all. Even the plastic Batman mask you wore for Halloween in the 1980s is more than zero percent effective.

            But SK wouldn’t mandate masks in order to protect individuals, otherwise they’d only have mandated it for the elderly. Closed masks are much more effective at preventing outgoing spread than incoming spread. If the virus is already aerosolized, then there’s only so much that any barrier can do – but if you’re carrying the virus, wearing a mask can prevent it from ever being aerosolized in the first place.

            At least that’s my inductive explanation of why they’re so much more effective at outgoing than incoming.

  24. Mister Grumpus says:

    I found my old tinfoil today. Still fits. Just like the good ol’ days.

    Guys, give me a sound-off for all you who have particularly strong opinions/positions that the COVID-19 experience has been 99% either one or the other of:

    A) the floundering and CrimeStopping of an increasingly desperate, Trump-deranged and incompetent ruling class

    vs

    B) a “show”, planned, produced and put on by the Evil Cabal Behind the Curtain, to get “globalist” innovations and progress items X Y and Z through

    Or in other words, what do you say to Corona-Troofers?

    By far the most chilling intellectual innovation of this blog, for me, has been using the Elite CrimeStop model to supersede and obsolesce the Evil Cabal Behind the Curtain model.

    • jim says:

      The corona troofer position is incoherent. Is it Wu Flu a Chinese bioweapon, an American bioweapon, a totally faked disaster, or an overhyped disaster?

      Initially it was an underhyped disaster, and now it is an overhyped disaster, but this looks normal incompetence and incoherent Trump derangement syndrome, not a coherent and terribly competent conspiracy. The corona troofer conspiracy theory is even less coherent than the elite’s response to the Wu Flu virus.

      One point that the conspiracy theory makes a big deal out of is that the Wu Flu virus has bat flu genes with a few HIV-1 genes, and it attacks the human cells using the same mechanism as HIV-1 does, and other flues do not. This might indicate someone engineered it, but it more likely indicates one positive stranded RNA virus having the virus equivalent of sex with another positive stranded RNA virus, which is where new flues come from all the time. Is the theory that China plotted to attack China? If the US plotted to attack China, the plotters would have had a more competent and organized response to the virus inevitably and predictably coming to America.

      Wu Flu is not yet a bigger problem than all the other flues, but it is deadlier than they are, so likely to become a bigger problem than all the other flues. Some level of drama is appropriate.

      The Democratic reaction was “never let a crisis go to waste”. They are as usual milking the crisis all they can, and that is a conspiracy, and is done conspiratorially, but they do that with every crisis.

      There is nothing surprising about yet another flu, and nothing surprising about the Democrats milking the crisis. If that is the great conspiracy, it is not very great.

      • Strannik says:

        Speaking of COVID-19, here might be some extra good news as far as a drug to fight it; Ivermectin, already used as an anti-parasitic/anti-viral;

        https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011

        I think people are starting to actually do something about all this.

        • Not Tom says:

          Interesting: while cell cultures don’t tell us much about human outcomes, if it does turn out to be effective, that would turn out to be the second effective anti-parasitic drug.

          SARS2 isn’t a parasitic infection, like malaria, yet the anti-parasitics are the only drugs showing any promise.

          Pharmacologists really should be taking more interest in why some of these anti-parasitic drugs have any effect at all on viruses. There isn’t really any logical reason why they should, and I haven’t seen any good explanation of why they do. Not that we need to know why, in order to use them in this instance, but knowing why might actually help to design real anti-viral drugs that work, as opposed to the modern approach of spraying a thousand different chemicals on the problem until it goes away.

          • jim says:

            They are taking an interest, and they have come up with some rationales. I am unimpressed with those rationales.

            • The Cominator says:

              https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-422X-2-69

              It was known in 2005 to basically block SARs 1.0 by changing the PH level of the cell membrane and blocking certain receptors both which seems to keep the virus out.

              • jim says:

                It is not in fact clear that it changes the pH level, and they have rather too many explanations in addition to pH level.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Whatever the very specific mechanism of action it seems like it changes something in the cell membranes such that the virus cannot penetrate the cell membranes at all.

                  Maybe it raising PH has an effect and maybe it doesn’t (note to self if I get cancer try Cloroquine as well) and maybe its direct effect of shutting down certain membrane receptors (probably more likely) is the main reason… I don’t know but it seems the main thing is it keeps the virus from getting into the cells at all.

                • The Cominator says:

                  https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/clinical-trials/intervention/hydroxychloroquine

                  It appears someone else had my thought about cancer and hydroxycloroquine, ie that if it does lower cellular PH its probably effective against some types of cancer (Leukemia probably not).

          • pdimov says:

            >SARS2 isn’t a parasitic infection, like malaria, yet the anti-parasitics are the only drugs showing any promise.

            That’s certainly interesting.

            However, they are not the only drugs. Remdesivir very likely works better than either of these. But it’s not $20, so it gets no spotlight.

            • jim says:

              The supply of Remdesvir is limited – one manufacturer, Gilead, and they are out of supply after having treated a handful of cases. On the available evidence it works great, but it is far harder to make than hydroxychloroquine. Also, it requires intravenous administration, while the alternatives are pills – and pills that lots of people know how to make.

      • The Cominator says:

        Its not that the virus is fake, a Chinese bioweapon, or an American bioweapon. But what it IS is Mueller by other means.

        The Cathedral (in this case both the media and the CDC, with the CDC and FDA also sabotaging testing) preached the virus was completely nothing until the day the order came down to start massively overhyping it and then they did an immediate about face. Suddenly even the constant chorus of Orange Man Bad cease to be replaced by the constant chorus that we need to shut down everything forever.

        There can only be one explanation for this shift… that they want to destroy Trump via destroying his economy (something I actually thought the Cathedral bigwigs had ruled out doing within short living memory of 2008 because of the difference between progressives and more classic marxists and that a true depression so soon after 2008 would favor outright Marxists). Implementing progressivism during the crisis is a goal too but perhaps secondary.

        Even though the constant orange man bad has ceased, even though the virus allows Trump to finally cutoff the 3rd world flood in its entirety… a depression is a political disaster for Trump if he owns it… and when he backed off reopen by Easter he took at least partial ownership of the economic damage. The constant chorus of orange man bad will resume after this is over…

    • Cementmixer says:

      Here is a video which seems to be recording of a whistleblower talking about plans for a pandemic in china that is designed to spread like wildfire, followed by the same or a different pandemic spreading across the world.

      The kicker is that this video was uploaded in 2010.

      youtube com/watch?v=TmWM51mTY

      To me it seems possible and likely that this is a bioweapon and there is some kind of conspiracy, even if it has been botched. I wouldn’t know why, though I have a suspicion that there is a supranational cabal of people who use the Cathedral as a tool to bring order through chaos. Could this be their doing?

      • jim says:

        Listening to 2010 video and interpreting it as about current events is sign of schizophrenia.

      • Dave says:

        Then there’s “After Armageddon”, a History Channel drama about a virus from Southeast Asia sweeping the world and destroying civilization, first broadcast in December 2010. Its premise is, “If a new disease came along that was as deadly as SARS and as contagious as Swine Flu…”, and it includes stock footage from those outbreaks. Global pandemics always originate in China, so that part of the script pretty much writes itself.

        What I found implausible was that after 100 million Americans die of this superflu, there’s no one left who knows how to operate an oil refinery, nuclear power plant, or public water supply, and that instead of figuring it out, the survivors just start killing each other. We’re not all niggers, you know.

        • Pseudo-chrysostom says:

          >We’re not all niggers, you know.

          They think so though, they really think so.

          When a progoid has fever dreams of folk devolving to stone age barbarism in absence of, how to say, apostolic succession of the unholy synagogue, it stems from them imagining themselves as the template for all those involved.

          In an environment with only such people as occupants, devolutionary anarchy would in fact quite naturally be an expectable entailment.

  25. Pooch says:

    There is nothing surprising about yet another flu, and nothing surprising about the Democrats milking the crisis. If that is the great conspiracy, it is not very great.

    I agree, but I don’t remember any antiviral drugs (Hydroxychloroquine) being such a big deal for ending the epidemic of previous flus.

  26. Mister Grumpus says:

    Guys I need some perspective please.

    So here we have the Zelenko Protocol of how $20 worth of HCQ+AZT+Zn can save old and compromised people from Covid-19, at home, without touching a hospital.

    Trump knows it. Dr Oz knows it. Tucker knows it. We know it.

    Yet meanwhile, day after grinding day, we have a medical and status establishment that is doing everything it can to keep it from being used, and instead doom us all to a smoking hole, for holiness reasons. This really is some Khmer Rouge / Cultural Revolution type stuff.

    So let’s armchair quarterback this a bit.

    How in the world can “the good guys” get this treatment out there, so that the country (and other countries) don’t get destroyed by this?

    “It’s as simple as blah-blah-blah”, but apparently it isn’t, because it’s not happening yet, even though people are going broke and hungry in their basements all over the damn world, so you’d think there’d be more than enough motivation to

    “Well, we’ve tried the expensive stuff that doesn’t work, so let’s try the affordable stuff that does work as a last resort.”

    So this is obviously really really complicated and hard. The civilization must be undermined and subverted to save it from itself. A whole lot of very important people have to be humiliated and impoverished before an affordable end to the Covid-19 crisis will be ALLOWED.

    Picture yourself as Trump himself, or a Fox News exec, or a governor, or a doctor, or just a regular Joe Blow. At any of these stations of society, what on earth can be done to connect the dots here?

    • Mister Grumpus says:

      HCQ + AZT + ZN

      CureGate

    • jim says:

      Ventilators are killing people.

      https://blog.jim.com/images/ventilators_are_killing_wu_flu_patients.mp4

      This disease is spread in substantial part by medical facilities, and it is the medical facilities that are killing off people.

      The problem is that doctors, nurses, and patients, like to have authority over them, and authority has failed.

      Trump should disregard limits on his power, and just plain order doctors and hospitals to use HCQ+AZT+ZN, and if a patient has breathing difficulties, use an oxygen mask rather than a ventilator, unless he shows signs of classic pneumonia and muscular breathing problems, which very few Wu Flu patients show.

      There will be outrage, because he will be exercising a priestly function in defiance of the official priesthood, but he will be obeyed, because everyone is hungering and thirsting for someone to be obeyed.

      • Mister Grumpus says:

        “…but he will be obeyed, because everyone is hungering and thirsting for someone to be obeyed.”

        OK that’s sharp. You’re pointing at the emotional and instinctual “fuel” that’s actually available, right now, to make something happen. Not just “I’m broke and don’t want to die”, but rather, even more deeply, “Daddy what should I do?”

        And surely that goes for many lower- and middle-levels in the medical establishment also. The ones too low-status to be too invested in the status quo, and also too in-touch with the actual patients to not care if they die for holiness reasons. I bet a good many of them are ready to obey as well, especially since they’ll know that the order will work.

      • Mister Grumpus says:

        And surely Don Junior, or Jared, or whoever, could free up some personal cash and mix/package up some HCQ+AZT+ZN pills, in red white and blue bottles with little orange wigs on the lids, and just deliver them to pharmacies in NYC for free. In HD on YouTube+Facebook livestream.

        Or fuck it, just set up a fast testing and drug distribution center right in Trump Tower, next to the ice cream stand by The Escalator. On livestream. Good cameras, lighting, tailored wardrobe, etc. Can you imagine the optics?

        No license. No permission. No nothing. “FUCK YOU. I’m saving lives here. Arrest me. I dare you.”

        Talk about benevolent aristocracy.

      • Mike in Boston says:

        One claim that is very interesting, if true, is that negative-pressure respirators– the old 1950s “iron lung”– may actually provide better outcomes than positive-pressure ventilation for patients with acute respiratory distress.

        After that era, they became less popular, according to the author of that thread, due to space requirements and obstruction of access to the patient. These are, as he points out, logistical and financial considerations, not medical ones. More societal technological decline?

      • Mister Grumpus says:

        Give me your over-under odds that Boris Johnson going into that London hospital for Covid is an “act” (whether he actually has Covid or not), and that he’ll get HCQ+AZT+ZN in there, get better, come out, and tell everyone all about it.

        Trump, or one of his sons, may have to do the same.

        • jim says:

          He has WuFlu, he says he has mild symptoms and they are not going away. Why an act?

          I wish it was, but I would not get my hopes up.

          • Dude says:

            UK is so pozzed that I almost wonder if the doctors at the high-status hospital Johnson is going to won’t offer him an effective treatment, because

            1) “quality” in the status conscious UK is tied to holiness
            2) using effective treatments in this case would raise the status of unapproved treatments, lowering the status of elite doctors
            3) a big name death reinforces the position of elite doctors at a time when the worst projections are looking woefully short and Sweden continues to do business as usual.

            Not saying it’s murder, they’re just using the “best,” peer reviewed treatments, of course.

            But I certainly wouldn’t want to be underwriting the life insurance policies of anyone being treated for coronavirus by the UK’s NHS right now.

            • ten says:

              Not doing business as usual in sweden. Everyone i know working in retail and restaurants lost work and got warned they might get fired or already got fired. Most street business sectors report 50-90% less business.

              Just maximizing disease spread by keeping the gyms open while maximizing economic damage. The most cathedralite media insects are in support, indicating it is a ploy to steer public opinion and debate away from chaos marauder invasion towards socialism.

            • Mister Grumpus says:

              “3) a big name death reinforces the position of elite doctors at a time when the worst projections are looking woefully short and Sweden continues to do business as usual.”

              How so?

          • Mister Grumpus says:

            OK OK Boris really is sick.

            What I should have said is that surely Boris is no dope, so he’s well aware of the HCQ+AZT+ZN treatment.

            I’m also willing to bet that the NHS won’t just up and give it to him.

            So I’m just hoping and hoping to God over here that Boris has some side-people he can trust, who will get him the HCQ+AZT+ZN, and get it into him somehow. And if they can, then he can get better, come out, wave to everyone, grab the microphone, and tell them how he got better. Maybe he’d bullshit a little and say the NHS offered it to him and he accepted.

            It would be a perfect stunt to get the truth out.

            This is all so terrifying and absurd.

            • jim says:

              > OK OK Boris really is sick.
              >
              > What I should have said is that surely Boris is no dope, so he’s well aware of the HCQ+AZT+ZN treatment.

              Crimestop.

              Artificial protective stupidity.

              • pdimov says:

                HCQ+AZT(+Zn) is really not the miracle cure it’s made out to be. It’s not even clear whether it will save more than it will kill (both HCQ and AZT cause arrhythmia.)

                • The Cominator says:

                  This is commie shill talk.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Its a miracle cure as long as you don’t get it too late if you are already near death than it may not save you. Anyone who says otherwise is a Cathedral shill.

                  None of Zelenko’s old Hasidic jew patients died.

                • jim says:

                  Nuts

                  Zelenko’s results show that it is a miracle cure – being overwhelmed, he only treated high risk patients. Heart arrhythmia is a seldom fatal, and even if you already have quite serious heart arrhythmia, and you take azithromycin on top of that, you are unlikely to notice any difference.

                • The Cominator says:

                  https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a682318.html

                  “headache
                  loss of appetite
                  diarrhea
                  upset stomach
                  stomach pain
                  skin rash or itching
                  hair loss
                  mood or mental changes”

                  I’ve read NOTHING that says short term use causes arrhythmia. The evidence is overwhelming that its a cure if given early though not necessarily when you get to death’s door.

                  Pdimov I know you and I don’t think you are a shill but please tell us where these commie cathedral lies are coming from.

                • pdimov says:

                  https://www.dicardiology.com/article/covid-19-hydroxychloroquine-treatment-brings-prolonged-qt-arrhythmia-issues

                  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4040726/

                  https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardiology/articles/2020/03/27/14/00/ventricular-arrhythmia-risk-due-to-hydroxychloroquine-azithromycin-treatment-for-covid-19

                  I want there to be a miracle cure as much as the next man (probably more), but I don’t think Zelenko has proven anything. I also don’t understand the love for HCQ when according to Chinese reports CQ phosphate is much better.

                  Miracle cures, when they work, work everywhere; there would have been mass reports from hospitals by now of HCQ+AZT working, and there just aren’t. Italy, for instance, doesn’t report it being a miracle cure. They seem to be sticking to Tocilizumab (I admit I can’t spell that without copy/pasting it.)

                • jim says:

                  > https://www.dicardiology.com/article/covid-19-hydroxychloroquine-treatment-brings-prolonged-qt-arrhythmia-issues

                  If you use it in high doses continually for ten years or so, it can, and likely will cause all sorts of problems. Mentioning all those side effects without mentioning that they have only been observed in people using it continually for many years is a lie.

                  You are getting your information from people who hate you and want you and your children to die.

                  > according to Chinese reports CQ phosphate is much better.

                  Chloroquine is almost the same drug as hydroxychloroquine. If one works, the other probably works. One might work better than the other, but the evidence is more impressive for hydroxychloroquine.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Zelenko absolutely proved it worked.

                  Your sources are cathedral lies. Cloroquine has been used since the late 40s and while its not a pleasant drug it now suddenly causes heart problems. Italy wasn’t using Cloroquine until late and neither was Spain hence their high death rate and what Italy is sticking to is not a model for anything, and from what I’ve heard they HAVE switched to cloroquine. South Korea and Germany otoh used it early. If China says something is better well I haven’t read that maybe it is and maybe it isn’t but that is no proof Cloroquine doesn’t work.

                  So we DO have worldwide confirmation it works as places that have used cloroquine have had a far lower death rate than places that have not.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Zelenko showed that

                  1. early or prophylactic use, the earlier the better and preferably as outpatient treatment, solves most of the problem

                  and guessed based on Korean reports that

                  2. adding zinc helps destroy the virus

                  The first has been confirmed overwhelmingly worldwide: HCQ (with or without AZT) works and it works much better best if given before serious symptoms, and continued afterward if they occur.

                  There are confirmations on the zinc but not as overwhelming as most places aren’t using it. Brazil, encouraged by Bolsonaro via Trump, is doing more or less the Zelenko approach and a doctor in LA (Cardillo) is reporting a replication.

                • pdimov says:

                  >Mentioning all those side effects without mentioning that they have only been observed in people using it continually for many years is a lie.

                  “While we’re on the subject of QT prolongation, there’s this preprint from a medical team at NYU that was also treating patients with the same combination of drugs. In 84 patients, they found notable QT prolongation in about 30% of them, and another 11% were to a level (>500 milliseconds) that put them at a high risk for arrhythmia.”

                  https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/04/06/hydroxychloroquine-update-for-april-6

                  A good summary of the HCQ denial case.

                • The Cominator says:

                  They don’t have a case and Trump needs to give the order to start arresting these cloroquine deniers.

                  The science is settled!

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  Who here thinks he knows something about the pro’s and con’s of HCQ vs CQ in the Covid19 context?

              • Mister Grumpus says:

                “Crimestop.
                Artificial protective stupidity.“

                I don’t follow. Please do me a favor and elaborate a little.

                Is it me who’s CrimeStopping, or are you afraid that Boris might be CrimeStopping himself from getting the HCQ+AZT+ZN treatment to stay out of even worse trouble in his vulnerable state? Or something else?

                • jim says:

                  Boris and his doctors are likely afflicted with crimestop.

                • Oliver Cromwell says:

                  Cummings will know HCQ and Cummings has the virus so he cares. This may save Boris.

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  I’m sorry to hear you think that. I was and still am optimistic that since he’s pulled off such a wild political coup with getting Brexit to actually happen IRL, Boris can see and operate the levers under the curtain better than most.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  2020, posh London hospital.

                  “Mr Johnson sir, telephone call from Mr Trump Junior in New York”

                  (pained groan)

                  J: (whispering ghastly) hell-oh, Dohnnn
                  Tjr: hey Boris. Dad says your doctors are “in Labour”, if you know what I mean. But here in New York we have this antimalaria stuff with zinc, clears up the lungs in a few hours. Works great, that bastard Chris Cuomo is secretly taking it. Our people tried to TEMPEST his house but can’t get the proof.
                  J: (groans)
                  Tjr: Dad also says that if you take the cocktail, are suddenly cured and explain that on television right afterward, we can sign that trade deal next week without further negotiation. Shall I have Rudy bring over some pills?
                  J: fwbwaaarghmummpfff

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  Omar, that is exactly the kind of crafty shit that I’m talking about. Right on the money. Really.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  The Boris matter really should be Trump’s top priority. Breaking the grip of media, is great, it has been in process from the first days of the Internet, was accelerated by social media and cellphones, and Trump is the man of history well poised to finish the job. But it is much easier than doing the same for doctors.

                  Pozzed medicine has been impregnable, going from strength to suffocating strength, with full capture of all institutions. Casting the medical whore-priests out of the temple has been unthinkable. Suddenly the once in a lifetime crisis-opportunity (better even than Cuomo) has fallen into Trump’s lap. Boris taking the Trump cure and returning from the brink to save the rest of the world from CV19 and the medical establishment, would be the vampire slaying to end all vampire slayings. Is it even possible that Trump is not aware of this?

                • jim says:

                  Trump is aware of this, but it does not follow that he will accomplish it.

                  He has no replacement priesthood, and is trying to bend the priesthood to his will, rather than annihilate.

                  Naturally I would love to see him launch the cominator solution tomorrow morning, but Trump has a merchant nature, he always wants to make a deal, and he does not have the people he needs. He may be trying to get a priestly faction to yield, rather than blowing them up head on.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Trump has essentially no downside in trying to get Johnson on HCQ immediately, as long as he acts deniably through intermediaries etc.

                  If no HCQ, Trump has a big problem that Johnson, a key ally now on the ventilator, has a good chance of dying with no strong replacement who can help crush the EU. Trump has been alone among US leaders in recognizing and antagonizing the EU as an economic enemy on a par with China.

                  If HCQ with deniable Trump connection, Johnson either lives and by doing so severely weakens the vampire, or dies anyway. Results from HCQ trials all over the world would soon show more formally that Trump was right, and the problem was that Johnson got too little of it too late.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  For example, Trump Jr can directly or indirectly convey to one of the antiglobalists like Cummings, Farage or Sabisky that UK will get very favorable trade terms — in effect giving them a cut of the wealth transferred back from EU — if Johnson and all of the CV19-ed people at the top of his government try the Zelenko treatment immediately.

                • pdimov says:

                  >Trump has essentially no downside in trying to get Johnson on HCQ immediately

                  As you correctly observed in another comment, the right time to get Boris on HCQ immediately was a week ago. It’s a bit too late for that now.

                  Dare I suggest the possibility that he was, in fact, on HCQ? Commie shill talk, no doubt.

                • pdimov says:

                  https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-says-hes-enlisted-brilliant-companies-to-assist-boris-johnson-they-have-arrived-in-london-already

                  “”It’s a very complex treatment of things that they’ve just recently developed,” Trump said later, in response to a question from a reporter.”

                  Doesn’t read like HCQ to me.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Johnson does not have pneumonia and is expected to live.

                • pdimov says:

                  I hope so; I like him.

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  “ “”It’s a very complex treatment of things that they’ve just recently developed,” Trump said later, in response to a question from a reporter.”

                  Doesn’t read like HCQ to me.”

                  Contraire! That sounds exactly like HCQ to me, wrapped in camouflage to “get it through customs”, if you will. A Trojan Horse of memetic awesome.

                  They made it “complex” by adding in fish oil, Vitamin D, Vitamin C, Korean Ginseng and Peppermint Oreos.

      • Cloudswrest says:

        Comment from an acquaintance.

        ——————————————–

        It’s one thing to pressurize the lungs versus put the whole patient at -100’ mean sea level. It’s kind of like normalizing air pressure for scuba diving. To the diver it feels like they are at 1 atm when they are actually at 2,3, 4, etc. The illness (Per the video) gives them the lung capability of someone at 30,000+ feet. The need a hyperbaric chamber, not a ventilator.

        Another way to put it, is that a ventilator isn’t good enough because the required pressure for treatment is higher than the safe level for employment of a ventilator.

        • jim says:

          The blood oxygen level falls, they raise the pressure, the victim is old and frail, he suffers ventilator injury.

      • Cloudswrest says:

        The ER doctor has a follow up video where he explicitly states the patients need oxygen, NOT pressure.

        https://youtu.be/QWaq8HoEROU

    • Pooch says:

      https://www.foxnews.com/health/thousands-of-coronavirus-infected-new-yorkers-treated-with-anti-malarial-drug

      About time…doesn’t seem like Cuomo is fighting the treatment.

      Interestingly, death rate in NYC flattening out last 2 days.

      • jim says:

        He is slow walking the treatment.

      • Mister Grumpus says:

        No mention of the Zinc. Where’s the fucking Zinc. What is with you motherfucking people.

        You know, the cheapest element of the HCQ+AZT+ZN combo that makes it all actually work.

        That’s it. I’m going out of my mind over here.

        This really is Khmer Rouge murder-suicide by holiness. This really is it. We’re all looking directly at the monster, in action, in real time and broad daylight, sitting on the same park bench as us, looking us right in the eye while it eats our French fries.

        • pdimov says:

          It will certainly be a twist of fate if Zn turns out the be the only effective component of the “protocol”.

  27. BC says:

    So on a deeper level than the questions of the day, how does the new world order shake out after this gone? The US has shown tremendous disunity, mass stupidity from our leadership, and considerable weakness.

    I’d been hoping Trump would have enough time to right the the ship before a crisis hit but you can only hide weakness and rot for so long before it’s exposed. How does the new world order shake out?

    • jim says:

      The New World Order was always the state religion of Harvard imposed at swordpoint, and has been falling apart due Trump’s lack of interest in applying the sword. As he regularly complains, the American Empire has been profoundly unprofitable for America.

      Competence or the lack thereof is irrelevant until the US is tested in a great power war, which Trump is disinclined to engage in.

      • BC says:

        The phrase “New World Order” hasn’t been used in connection with the Cathedral for at least 15 years if not longer. I did not use the phrase in that sense rather I intended in the sense of how people will pick between strong and weak horses in imperial alignment. US empire might start falling (more) apart with China picking up the pieces.

  28. Yisrael ben Goyim says:

    You goys still don’t have a clue.

    Climb up out of you grandmother’s basement, get on your bicycle, ride over to your local hospital and see with your own eyes that it is a ghost town. No patients, no cars, nothing.

    • jim says:

      The ghost town phenomenon is consistent with postponement of elective surgery, and that people are afraid to go to medical facilities because of the likelihood of infection. Because the epidemic is increasing by a factor of ten every ten days, hospitals can go from empty to overflowing very fast.

      Everyone I know is avoiding hospitals and doctor’s offices like the plague, or rather, because of the plague.

      Wu Flu is still small, ten thousand deaths per day in the US. But people are rationally concerned that the peak will be large, partly because the establishment is pushing hyped projections, but partly because it could be large. A thousand deaths per day is not all that small. If growth were to continue for another ten days, it would be a hundred thousand deaths per day.

      “[British Prime Minister Boris Johnson] was sitting in the same green leather chair (in the Chancellor’s study, which he had requisitioned while in isolation), but by now the jacket and tie had gone and his shirt was unbuttoned. His skin appeared blotchy and his voice, now croaky, gave way altogether at one point part-way through the 1 minute, 46 seconds of video.”

      He really is ill, and my guess is that high priest doctors around him were far too holy to give him hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, and zinc.

      • The Cominator says:

        Not 10k deaths per day 10k deaths total.

        • Steve Johnson says:

          No, 10k deaths per day – easily. There have been 10k deaths so far.

          The one thousandth death was 27 March; the two thousandth on the 29th and the three thousandth on the 30th. It took until March for there to be a thousand deaths and there were a thousand dying per day three days later.

          In the week since almost eight thousand more people have died.

          https://blog.jim.com/uncategorized/the-cathedral-and-the-holiness-spiral/#comment-2460432

        • The Cominator says:

          10k in the US so far TOTAL.

          There will not be 10k a day in the US ever. Most of the deaths have probably already occurred.

          • Fred says:

            Not to mention that most of the deaths aren’t excess deaths. The real lesson here is that there doesn’t seem to be any standard framework for determining who dies from a disease vs. who dies with a disease (and died from something else), so everyone who dies with coronavirus is being recorded as a coronavirus fatality, leading to credulous incompetents taking the fatality figures seriously.

            • Steve Johnson says:

              That’s because it’s a question that doesn’t have an actual answer; this guy died because he wasn’t in good enough shape to survive the wu flu – did he die *of* the wu flu or just with the wu flu? is unanswerable or arbitrary based on some line you draw based on how personalized you want to make his life expectancy. Does it have to cut off 10 years of expected life? 1 year? 6 months? 30 years? Maybe he would have died of the flu just the same.

              “The lines are fuzzy, therefore the category is meaningless” is enemy argumentation for when they want to ignore something.

      • pdimov says:

        They’ll give him remdesivir instead.

      • Glow Boomer says:

        [deleted]

    • jim says:

      Here is a video of a New York hospital this morning.

      It is overflowing alarmingly

      https://youtu.be/OGnxNsKtkjI?t=144

      • Javier says:

        Michael Burry (MD/investor who predicted 2008 crash) says it’s overblown:

        https://twitter.com/michaeljburry

        New York is a dirty city with overcrowding, they’re always going to be hit hard by stuff like this. No reason to lock down the rest of the country.

        • Not Tom says:

          New York is a dirty city with overcrowding

          But San Francisco is not?

          Madness.

          Making one correct investment decision in 2008 does not make one an expert on infectious diseases. Seeing far too many “experts” whose only credential is having made money in 2008. A lot of people made money in 2008.

          I do agree that rural areas don’t need strict quarantines. Regular distancing is fine. But pretty much every large city will need to be.

          • The Cominator says:

            The so called experts don’t know anything. The skeptics (like me) who thought they were full of shit have been right about almost everything.

            Social distancing is economic poison and needs to come to a quick end, even if this were so deadly under normal circumstances we have the Zelenko protocol. Trump needs to make full use of his emergency powers to crackdown on Cloroquine deniers and end this bullshit.

            • Not Tom says:

              Dude, you’ve been right on almost nothing with regard to this. You were wrong about case rates, wrong about mortality rates, wrong about the pattern of infection in Europe and the USA, wrong about the magnitude and possibly the existence of major racial disparities, and are only even half-right with your death count prediction because of nearly ubiquitous social distancing (compare California to New York).

              Ok, you were [probably/mostly] right about Chloroquine, which nobody here actually disputed you on. Want a fucking medal for that?

              The “Zelenko protocol” is great but doesn’t completely replace social distancing. There are guys out there, like Sailer, who are promoting gradual resumption of economic activity with social distancing and other precautions (i.e. masks) incorporated where possible. That’s logical and smart and cool-headed. Your narrative of “die for my 401k, plebs” is not.

              New and important information is largely coming from actual experts, especially those directly practicing: the role of Zinc in combination with HCQ; the possibility that it is hypoxia and not pneumonia; the damage being done by ventilators; possible other anti-parasitics that work. These are all coming from physicians and sometimes research scientists. Not bureaucrats at the CDC and WHO, obviously, but actual practicing doctors working in ERs and ICUs.

              Your problem is that you don’t recognize actual expertise and think you’re smarter than everyone else out there, which leads you to insane conclusions. There’s a fine line between ignoring the morons that the Cathedral presents to us as experts, and ignoring the people who genuinely know what they’re talking about.

              • Pooch says:

                He is right in the sense that we should open the economy back up immediately. It’s not as deadly as initially feared and we have a treatment now. We’ve enough to mitigate. It’s obvious the cathedral is milking the gloom and doom to every last drop To further socialism.

            • The Cominator says:

              LOL

              “Dude, you’ve been right on almost nothing with regard to this. You were wrong about case rates, wrong about mortality rates, wrong about the pattern of infection in Europe and the USA”

              We actually don’t know either the real case rates or the mortality rates, South Korea the place which has the best data suggests that is more deadly if you get it than the seasonal flu (and are not given the Zelenko protocol quickly) but far less contangious. Germany which also has fairly good date suggests much the same. It CANNOT be both more contangious and more deadly than the seasonal flu no matter what the alarmist “experts” claim or you’d see higher case numbers.

              So where have I been wrong. The deaths #s (padded as they are) are on track to be less than the seasonal flu.

              “wrong about the magnitude and possibly the existence of major racial disparities”

              LOL I can’t recall that I mentioned muh racial disparities. Perhaps back in December when almost nothing was known there was a rumor that niggers couldn’t get it but I don’t recall saying anything along those lines.

              “New and important information is largely coming from actual experts, especially those directly practicing: the role of Zinc in combination with HCQ; the possibility that it is hypoxia and not pneumonia; the damage being done by ventilators; possible other anti-parasitics that work. These are all coming from physicians and sometimes research scientists. Not bureaucrats at the CDC and WHO, obviously, but actual practicing doctors working in ERs and ICUs.”

              Thats nice but the important info about Cloroquine is known, Trump should assert his full emergency power and silence the critics of cloroquine, ordering that anyone who disputes the effectiveness of the Zelenko protocol is to be arrested immediately for the duration of the emergency and that any court orders contrary to this will be ignored. He needs to give a speech of course to accompany the issuance of this order that of course this violates civil liberties but so does confining people in their homes and that he cannot condone liars who perpetuate this intolerable situation and that he will hear nothing about their civil liberties when the whole country is under house arrest. This also sets a very good precedent…

              “Your problem is that you don’t recognize actual expertise and think you’re smarter than everyone else out there, which leads you to insane conclusions. There’s a fine line between ignoring the morons that the Cathedral presents to us as experts, and ignoring the people who genuinely know what they’re talking about.”

              I’m not smarter than everyone else but the public health experts ARE all morons who know nothing and have been wrong about everything. Under Old Testament Law these experts and modelers would be stoned to death as false prophets as well they should be.

              • R7 Rocket says:

                All the rates and numbers are fake, because of asymptomatic carriers, because deaths from other causes are being counted as COVID19 deaths if there is infection.

                And these quacks are now disrupting our access to food.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Well luckily I think its coming to an end…

                  Trump’s “reopening” council is to be formed Monday.

  29. Jim,

    >He has no replacement priesthood

    Why, though? It isn’t every doctor that needs to be replaced, only those in key power positions. I would say a few dozen although the US is a bigger country than anything I ever saw so it might be a few hundred. Same with other kinds of jobs.

    This is important and IMHO alarming. Can’t make any serious change without that. Um. Look at what Russian Commies did. They recruited clueless peasants. How about recruiting clueless rednecks? Not into the medical, but for stuff like Dept of State or Dept of Education, why not, I mean they could be at the top, the current pozzed experts below them, and the rednecks would just let the experts work, and all they would do is just to veto stuff that smells too pozzed to them. I mean I don’t want to imitate Commies, but the Commies actually killed the experts they inherited from the Tzar, instead of just putting a clueless peasant as a political comissar above them. I am proposing the later.

    • The Cominator says:

      This is what I would do as far as journalists and lawyers once the priesthood was Nacht und Nebeled… I would start a selection process for right wingers with high verbal IQ from country backgrounds… and install them as the new academic elite in journalism and law.

      “but the Commies actually killed the experts they inherited from the Tzar,”

      We are not going to kill any real technical experts someone like Raoult should be fine regardless of his political views provided he doesn’t talk politics ever, Fauci otoh gets the helicopter. Anyone in academic medicine who likes the FDA process or who raised doubts about Cloroquine gets the helicopter.

      • I am strongly against killing. Yarvin had a good story about that lately. When Augustus defeated Cato, and his men found letters sent to Cato in support, he said burn the letters and forget it, they are all our guys now. This is not simply sentimentality, although perhaps partially so, believing we are the good guys. But I also base it on three other things:

        1) The font of honor thing works. Grasp power firmly, send them all into retirement with full pay, and the usual funny guys will turn on them and ridicule them into a status non-entity, because they want to lick the boots of the new power.

        2) The basic worldview of the demotic-democratic ideologies, including Nazi and Commie, is that power is based on consent. Hence those who hesitate to consent will be propagandized and those who seem very unlikely to ever consent (jews for Nazis, kulaks for Commies) are killed. One of the biggest reasons why I turned into a reactionary was realizing that if power is not based on consent, you do not have to propagandize or at least you only do it in unfalsifiable things but you do not have to lie about truths, and you do not have to kill. This is the point. If you think they need to be killed, you think so because you think they would not consent to reactionary rule. But the point is, for reactionary rule consent is irrelevant.

        This is really a big deal to me. The history of the 20th century was such a bloodbath because it was based on rule by consent, hence killing those will never consent. A big part of me turning reactionary is the idea that if you do not need consent to rule, you do not have to kill people.

        3) Sun Tzu. If you do not let your enemies run away, if you corner them into fighting to death because they have no other alternative, they will fight like cornered rats. Offer them an escape. Retirement with full pay and tending to your own, rather comfortable, garden. This saps their fighting spirit.

        • BC says:

          You’re reading of Roman history is incorrect. Caesar was nice to his foes and they murdered him for it. Augustus slaughtered his foes without mercy while pretending he wasn’t.

          • The Cominator says:

            You are correct BC, Caesar failed because he spared his foes. Augustus reigned with stability because he slaughtered them all without mercy.

            • BC says:

              Augustus did not reign with stability until he created the cult of the emperor. Rome was a basket case during his first 10 or so years of rule despite him killing his foes off.

              Augustus behavior was him groping towards ruling through religion rather than bruit force. Caesar’s behavior was a reaction to Sulla’s behavior of killing everyone. Augustus reaction was a reaction to Caesar and Sulla’s behavior. Augustus had the right idea of killing people without reveling in it but still making it clear what happened if you stepped out of line.

              • The Cominator says:

                He was only a Triumvir then, generally considered juniour to Marc Antony and the seas were uncrossable because it took years to defeat Sextus Pompeii’s fleet and retake Sicily.

                We cannot speak of the reign of Augustus until after the battle of Actium but the reason he could reign as a much nicer guy after Actium is he mercilessly killed everyone who might oppose him back when he was merely Octavian the Triumvir.

              • jim says:

                Augustus Caesar killed one hell of a lot of people, but then, having obtained undisputed supremacy over the permanent government, still could not bring the government to order. Everyone in the government bowed down to him, but government still did not work, as they bow down to Duterte in the Philippines, but the Philippine government still does not work. Augustus Caesar needed a state religion, and fumbled his way into one.

                Charles the second killed very few people, but he had the old state religion in his pocket, still live and ready to roll.

                Suharto killed a hell of a lot of people, and he had a state religion in his pocket.

                But the science of the Royal Society is still live. Trump could restore it to rule over science, and his talk about a Red Team / Blue Team examination of Global Warming was talk about a restoration in science. But you have to be able and willing to burn heretics at the stake, even if you want to it to be very few heretics.

                To restore old type science, Trump would find roughly as easy and as hard as Charles the second did. A few executions, and one heretic burned. Still a coup complete problem.

          • Steve Johnson says:

            Your interpretation *and* facts are off.

            Cato killed himself after Cato’s army was defeated by Caesar because he didn’t even want to accept a *pardon* from Caesar who was famously merciful to his former (so he believed) enemies.

            Of course they killed him for that – stripping them of status and leaving them alive and cohesive enough to rebel if not cohesive enough to rule.

            On this particular matter Yarvin is hopelessly compromised. Listen to his interview with Justin Murphy – start at the 59 minute mark.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRQO3VbJsMw

            Can’t blame him for it – he’s was born into that class and loves them – they’re his people (in his words). He delusionally believes that the ruling class is still capable and is operating in a bad system rather than correctly observing that they’re less and less capable and more and more fanatically murderously insane.

            You may not need to rule by consent and therefore kill those who won’t consent but you do need to have secure rule and part of secure rule is making sure that ready made conspiracies are dealt with *permanently*.

            • US and UK occupying troops in Germany were able to get the Nazis permanently out of power while only killing a small number of them, and just firing most of them. They had secure power, secure power is always based on the military because civilian conspiracies are powerless against tanks, secure power does not need to resort to violence because it is obvious to everybody that if not obeyed, they could and would, therefore, they could just tell the Nazi journalists to go “learn to code” and that was it. They just shut down all the new papers and then gave a handful of loyalists permit to start new ones who, lacking competition, easily dominated the market. This is how secure power generally works.

              • Steve Johnson says:

                To the extent that Nazis selected for bad character in their ruling members they did so in a way that was easy to fake; progressives test more intently for insanity and predilection to evil by selecting specifically for socially detrimental traits.

                Yarvin would be right talking about Nazi government; you need to switch the government then mostly the same people can rule well – he’s absolutely wrong to assert the same thing about progressive government.

                The worst imaginable version of Nazi selection would testing for willingness to torture to death an ethnic outsider; for progressives it’s the reverse which selects for worse people.

                • This is an excellent argument in favor of firing them. Which is what I proposed and which is what they did back then.

                  I don’t see how it is an argument for killing them.

                • The Cominator says:

                  The reason you need to outright kill progs and other leftists (at least the priest class of them) is their high level of skill at entryism and their ability to naturally reproduce their ideology among people who think they got the short end of the stick in a capitalist and hierarchal society.

                  They came back in Chile and Spain, they did not come back in Indonesia.

                • jim says:

                  They did come back in Indonesia. Commies remain utterly extinct, but their university system is overrun with obese blue haired feminists. Reinfected from Harvard.

                • Steve Johnson says:

                  Dividualist –

                  Yarvin is arguing against firing them.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Jim do you have a source for this, i wouldn’t be surprised if they got some leftist social science professors but blue haired feminist not what ive heard about ANY asian country except for Taiwan much less a more 3rd worldish one like Indonesia.

                  The 3rd world isnt good grounds for progressive infection, its better grounds for classical communism.

                • jim says:

                  Classical communism has appeal in the third world, because people are actually hungry and in need, so “let’s grab other people’s stuff” sounds good. But communism stayed dead in Indonesia, after a Suharto killed off all communists. Indonesia has no communist problem. It does, however, have a progressivism and progressive converged Islam problem.

                  http://www.indonesianfeministjournal.org/index.php/IFJ

                  Conservative Islam, which became the official state Church when communism was purged, correctly sees this as Christian, or a Christian derived heresy. (Someone has been reading Moldbug, or maybe reading me.) It really needs to be dealt with as Muslims have always dealt with hostile religions, and yet they are high status within Indonesian academia. So far, however, they have not dared go LGBT, which indicates they are walking on eggshells. But they are talking about going LGBT, and probably will soon.

                  Backed by “the international community”, they are having substantial impact in converging Islam.

                  The state Church of Indonesia needs deal with them as apostates and infidels, but they have power. Islam is being converged, as the Christian churches were converged.

                  The appeal of communism was always “You are hungry because Jeff Bezos has collared all the food”. It is time for a movement that says “You are incel or stuck with Jeremy Meek’s leavings, so let’s stop the pussy from waiting for Jeremy Meek’s next booty call.”

        • Theshadowedknight says:

          If you are against killing, you are in the wrong game. Politics is a blood sport–always has been, always will be. Voting was a naked exercise of military power: “I have more people than you, so I win.” Now that voting does not represent military capability, the system is falling apart. Even the purpose of the priesthood is to get as many of the killers on the same page as possible to maximize military might.

          Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who do not.

          • The Cominator says:

            “If you are against killing, you are in the wrong game. Politics is a blood sport–always has been, always will be. Voting was a naked exercise of military power: “I have more people than you, so I win.” Now that voting does not represent military capability, the system is falling apart. ”

            And this is yet another reason why female voting is such a bad idea. Irrespective of their tendency to vote horribly (I’ll make an exception for 2008 because as bad as Obama was he had to beat McCain) the fact that they have no military capability undermines voting as a convention of peace by balancing military numbers…

            • Steve Johnson says:

              In retrospect Obama was the better candidate than either of his Republican opponents. McCain was openly deranged; Romney has shown his true colors post Trump.

        • pdimov says:

          The right way to be against killing is to try to minimize the number of people you have to kill.

          This is how you tell a Pinochet from a Pol Pot.

          • alf says:

            That’d be my take as well. You do not fight every battle you can, and sinilarly you do not murder every enemy you can.

            • The Cominator says:

              Leftism has returned in Chile it did not return in Indonesia (Indonesia’s muslim problem is a seperate issue). Communism withered in Russia because Stalin all but wiped out the true believers except for himself and a small inner circle…

              Caesar was murdered by those he spared, while Augustus died of old age (well maybe Livia poisoned him, there is some controversy there… and even if Livia poisoned him she was on the proscription list at one point and was spared).

              History supports the idea that the only solution to leftism is the Final Solution. If you spare them the problem will come back. Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent. If we win we should solve the problem.

              The best way to do it is to make centre-right cuck types carry it out… you don’t make Moldbug a death camp commandant or a right wing death squad group commander you force Ben Shapiro and all sorts of people who tweeted #Nevertrump to do it. In that way you bind the cuckish elements of the right to your regime.

              • alf says:

                History is full of kings, emperors and dictators who rule long with killing only those they had no choice but to kill. If you refuse to kill the few that you should be killing, yes, you likely end up murdered. But there’s plenty wise rulers out there who do just fine by killing the worst excesses and no more.

                Also, you might want to come up with a better name for your plan than Ze Final Solution 😂

                • The Cominator says:

                  “Progressivism is attempting to converge Islam as it converged Christianity.”

                  Dear god… Is their some way it can just sort of make Islam some fake and gay imitation while not becoming progressive really either…

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  Alf, once the Final Solution becomes feasible, the only people complaining about it being called the Final Solution are the people who need to get Solved. You can call it the Suharto Method, Night and Fog, the Inquisition, the Purge, whatever you want because at that point it is a coup complete problem. Everyone on your side will fall in line and get to stuffing the gender/race studies types in the traincars bound for death camps without a second thought, because its the right thing to do, and they won’t worry about what its called.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Shadowedknight and Alf.

                  I wouldn’t call it by that name lol.

                  And of course only a pure psychopath (yeah yeah its an anticoncept but I don’t entirely agree) could really find the process enjoyable (I mean after a while even if a man would enjoy say helicoptering part of the CNN staff) but as I’ve said we should not make politically reliable people carry it out.

                  We make the Ben Shapiro’s and the people who tweeted Nevertrump carry it out… people who think they are sort of intellectually anti-progressive and anti-communist but who aren’t reliable and theoretically believe in Democracy and all that crap. In this way they atone for their failures in enabling the left and the knowledge that another regime will never forgive them will bind them to us.

                  Now Alf and some others are horrified by the kind of numbers this would entail… So here is what I propose.
                  Perhaps people should be given a chance at some kind of intense reactionary re-education (with tests as to their sincerity) but for those who fail… since women are prone to stockholm syndrome this should be particularly effective with women which will solve the problem of too many prog women vs men upsetting the ratio… In no case would they ever be allowed to have a priestly type job ever again.

                  Night and fog should be a special category after the initial purges (which should at some point after they are done be if not announced allowed to slip into public knowledge)… night and fog should be how we deal with people who seek to politicize envious or egalitarian impulses down the road they should be arrested and that should be known but no information should be given out as to their whereabouts or their fate. Some of these may be released after a re-education course… but part of their treatment should be conditioning that they never wish to speak of what such things entail. There should be an air of mystery and horror about what happens to people who become progs feminists and communists. That most of them disappear and are never heard from again, and that some come back but they are never quite the same…

                  By such means leftism and social entropy could be held back probably not forever but probably 500 good years or so and hopefully we can get to space by then and frontierism should make consistent leftism impossible.

                  But if we don’t employ such methods history shows leftism comes back in at most two generations.

                • alf says:

                  I’m not horrified. While I might not always agree with you, you have interesting takes and this is one of them.

                  The way I see it, is I have socialist friends. Not many, but I have them. And yes, in some aspects they’re pieces if shit, but in others, I like them. One friend, after I publicly humiliated him using arguments borrowed from this sphere, later confessed to me that he was scared that I viewed him as the source of all evil. To which I responded: maybe? But not really.

                  Com, pretty sure you would view this friend as the source of all evil. But I have no inclination to kill him. When people like him are in charge, yes, they fuck things up, but when they are where they should be, they tend to know their place.

                  You kill people who give you ample reason to kill them, who refuse to learn their place. That is, in my eyes, the best way to do it.

                • The Cominator says:

                  I have a very few left wingers I still like personally I grew up in Cathedral central after all…

                  But nearly all became increasingly insufferable and NPCish after 2016 and I don’t see how you keep the problem from returning in 2016 if you are too sentimental about this…

                • The Cominator says:

                  I mean I don’t see how you keep the problem from returning down the road if you are sentimental about this…

                • jim says:

                  You can kill people, but you cannot kill ideas.

                  Getting rid of bad ideas requires a more subtle approach.

                • alf says:

                  It’s a practical issue, not a sentimental one.

                  Yarvin argues that come the restoration, no people need helicopter rides. I think a few people need helicopter rides. You think a great deal of people need helicopter rides.

                  I think Yarvin is too sentimental, and you are being too autistic. If Indonesia had turned into some kind of reactionary paradise, I might have been inclined towards your argument, but so far I think a program that seeks to murder, let’s put a number on it, (suharto killings / indonesian 1960 population x american 2020 population equals) 2.4 million americans, well it seems a bit much.

                  My basic point is: you don’t kill people for violating laws that did not exist at the time of them violating it. That way, you keep it fair, everyone gets a fair chance, and when somebody does repeatedly violate the law and gets a helicopter ride, everyone can go: well, that’s fair. It grants legitimacy.

                  When I look at Nicolas II and Louis XVI, their problem was not that they didn’t executed thousands of people, their problem was that they did not execute any people. Instead they placated their enemies. That, I think, is the crucial mistake.

                • pdimov says:

                  The interesting thing is that Suharto didn’t kill all leftists.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “The interesting thing is that Suharto didn’t kill all leftists.”

                  He came pretty damn close, with some of the Chinese (though not too many) minority who were just mistaken or assumed leftists for good measure.

                  Anyone known to be a politically active member of leftist parties was killed.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366

                • pdimov says:

                  The communist party had 2M confirmed members, and even the highest estimates of the murdered (which are probably lies) only go to “over a million”.

                  The other interesting thing about your poster example is that when one has a communist party, one already has a kill list. But you don’t. You have zero idea who you will kill. And when you don’t have a fixed and predetermined kill list, the end result is never pretty.

                • BC says:

                  The other interesting thing about your poster example is that when one has a communist party, one already has a kill list. But you don’t. You have zero idea who you will kill. And when you don’t have a fixed and predetermined kill list, the end result is never pretty.

                  Cominator is suggesting the full on Sulla solution and my reading of Rome history indicates that didn’t work. The state remained unstable and out of control despite purging the leftists. The best way to eliminate leftism and create a stable state is with a good anti leftist religion.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Re the list.

                  When in power categories should be drawn up. Politically active Democrats, women and ethnic studies professors, most people in priestly jobs who are leftists in any way…

                  We make a new religion once we leave the old one a smoking crater.

                • jim says:

                  Sulla left a smoking crater, and the crater was a problem until Augustus Caesar.

                  Charles the Second, on the other hand, gave us science, technology, industrialization, and empire.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Sulla left a partial crater he killed the populares extremist (but even then only some of them) but not the most corrupt optimates (who murdered Julius Caesar, which is one of histories great tragedies IMHO).

                  Augustus and the Second Triumvirate had to make a whole new crater for them. Octavian could not make a new religion where he was Augustus until he did that.

                • jim says:

                  Sulla left a big smoking crater, and you are arguing the crater was not big enough, should have made a bigger one.

                  But the crater continued to smoke for sixty years. It took Augustus Caesar ten years to get the Roman government barely working. Killing large numbers of leftists failed to do the trick, while Charles the Second did do the trick while only killing a handful of leftists.

                  Yes, leftism came back eventually to England, but the restoration was followed by one hundred and eighty years of good government and a healthy social order, while chaos continued from Sulla to a decade into the rule of Augustus Caesar.

                  The reason the restoration went off the rails is that they found themselves with Kings who failed to subscribe to the official religion, and under those Kings, entryists entered. The English were worried about Roman Catholic entryists, worried too much about Roman Catholic entryists, and failed to worry enough about entryists whose faith was derived from Puritanism, and from the radical Puritanism that Cromwell had successfully suppressed with very little killing.

                  Suharto left a big smoking crater, but the crater very quickly stopped smoking because he had a live state religion ready to roll. But, despite that big crater, his state religion is today succumbing to Cathedral entryism, via Soros ngos. It is in healthier condition than Iran’s state religion, perhaps due to the lingering impact of Suharto’s big smoking crater, but both of them are in a bad way.

                  You don’t kill ideas by killing the people that carry them. You kill ideas by making them low status and by permanently continuing to keep them low status. Trouble is that Soros ngos are high status.

                  The vector of Harvard entryism is ngos and professorships. You have to make the universities explicitly adhere to the state religion, make sure every professor professes the state religion – which is what the Cathedral is doing. And you have to prevent entryists from holiness spiraling the official state religion into their heresy. Killing people is orthogonal to this problem. Kill, or don’t kill, does not make a big difference.

              • jim says:

                > Leftism has returned in Chile it did not return in Indonesia (Indonesia’s muslim problem is a seperate issue)

                Progressivism is attempting to converge Islam as it converged Christianity. It is having considerable success. This is a workaround to the fact that Suharto reinstalled the previous state religion.

                Cultural Marxism is Marxism converged to the progressivism, and moderate Islam is Islam converged to progressivism. Progressive Jews don’t reproduce, and moderate Muslims do not reproduce. Thus progressives are fine with Iran, but attempted to exterminate the ruling Alawite minority in Syria.

                Alawites make no attempt to convert or converge the majority to their religion, but are stubbornly resistant to any outside effort at convergence. Hence the attempted genocide.

                • Allah says:

                  How does Africa fit into this? They’ve got by far the highest birthrates yet they’re relatively undisturbed, is it because progs don’t see them as a threat?

                  Alawite birthrate is apparently slightly above 2, lower than that of Indonesia but higher than Iran. Alawites are as you say a secretive and conspiratorial people, but they advertise themselves as enlightened modern free people as opposed to the bigoted and backwards Sunnis, they are quite proud of “nightlife” in Damascus. Iran was supposed to go down as the last target after Syria. I like your teachings on most topics, but geopolitics is not one of your strengths.

                • jim says:

                  Attempted genocide in Rwanda, successful genocide in the Congo. I would count that as mighty substantial disturbance.

                  Muslim dominated countries in black Africa are being quietly converged, Christian dominated countries get converged with straight up massive violence.

                  However, though the capital gets converged, low state capacity in black African countries means that convergence in the capital does not filter through to the boondocks very fast.

                  Plus blacks are better adapted than whites or east Asians to reproduce without marriage.

                • jim says:

                  Alawites are not particularly heretical on marriage and the family, but what really ticked off the Cathedral was Syria’s policy on higher education, which was for precisely and exactly numerically equal representation in higher education of women, which is quite progressive, but not progressive enough. The Cathedral wanted massive and overwhelming female dominance in higher education, as in Iran, Indonesia, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia, since their strategy is always for convergence mediated through the universities.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  High female rates of higher education is from having a half-Islamic half-modern country, e.g., permitting female schooling. The Islam narrows womens’ options and incentivizes them to use the modernity to compensate by getting as much schooling as possible. Men can live fine and well without putting much effort into formal education (Islam works!) so in the aggregate they don’t.

                • jim says:

                  Nothing wrong with female schooling provided it is not unisex. They should be taught the female role in girl’s schools by women who have successfully performed the female role – given birth to their husband’s children.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “Nothing wrong with female schooling provided it is not unisex.”

                  I think you probably meant not co-ed.

                  I think its a good idea to have two generations of severe discouragement of women having any pretense of being educated.

                  We need to reset the female herd mind to thinking of men as far smarter than they are and as such deliberately encouraging female ignorance Boko Haram style until feminist ideas fade almost from living memory is probably necessary.

                • Atavistic Morality says:

                  Feminism has nothing to do with education and everything to do with progressive regime in power. Whether they read literature or not makes no difference.

                  The example that Jim often uses of Australia turning literal whores into housewives comes to mind here.

    • jim says:

      He could recruit us or people like us – but the reaction to such recruitment would be apocalyptic.

      What he needs to do, in order to deal with his enemies in the “scientific branch” of the state religion, is undo the peer review program. He was talking about having a red team/blue team examination of global warming – where you let both sides systematically present their evidence in official channels, instead of peer review behind closed doors deciding that only one side is acceptable on the basis of secret evidence that is never made public, and only counting one side’s evidence as legitimate, but he backed off from that then.

      The medical establishment is the core of that program. That he backed off from that then indicates it is coup complete problem, requiring at least the threat of Cominator style measures.

      Charles the second is the epitome of a mild mannered restoration, but he burned one heretic at the stake, which is what made it possible to fire all the other heretics. He also made compromises with Puritanism, which in the long term turned out to be disastrous, but which did not lead to problems for centuries.

      • Allah says:

        the reaction to such recruitment would be apocalyptic.

        From the looks of it they’ve been throwing everything they have at Trump and it all blew up in their faces, I would say if they had anything else against Trump, they would’ve tried it already. What can they do that would be apocalyptic?

        • jim says:

          Arrest everyone around Trump, whereupon impeachment would go through smoothly.

          The generals appear to be OK with that, but the praetorians are not OK, hence the coup would likely go bloody, and might well fail, resulting in a successful Trump counter coup.

          During the house impeachment hearings, they were fishing for support for a coup among the generals, and the generals were fine with it, and then suddenly changed their minds. I conjecture that what happened is that the praetorians told them “that would undermine the discipline and unity of the armed forces”, which is military euphemism for high ranking officers getting shot.

          • The Cominator says:

            Trump is apparently using the media’s brief respite from constant orange man bad (in order to destroy him indirectly by prolonging the panic) to purge the spooks and the “impartial” inspector generals and probably others…

            So we shall see. He certainly should use the distraction to purge people (but not the medical “experts” the media is focused on, I don’t think Birx is all that bad but Fauci definitely needs to be in front a firing squad) but that does not mean he can keep this going much longer and survive because he can’t.

          • yewotm8 says:

            I thought I’d been paying attention, but maybe not. Who are Trump’s praetorians?

            • jim says:

              Every state has praetorians, and they are seldom reliably the sovereign’s praetorians.

              A praetorian is a state employee with a gun and authority to use force who is located on the interesting side of the Rubicon. They are not Trump’s praetorians. Or are they?

              I hope to see that question answered soon.

      • Harold Green says:

        “He also made compromises with Puritanism, which in the long term turned out to be disastrous, but which did not lead to problems for centuries.”

        Speaking of this, did you ever get a chance to read JCD Clark’s ‘English Society 1660-1832’? He makes some very Jim-esque points on the role of religion in British politics during this period.

        • jim says:

          Yes, read JCD Clark’s “English Society 1660-1832”.

          It was a struggle for control of the official state religion, which slowly returned to the officially unofficial condition that it had suffered as a result of the civil war, and continues to suffer to the present day. Holiness spiral ensues.

          When we are in charge, the high status universities, those of them that are not shut down and redeveloped into housing, offices, and shopping centers, will once again be officially and actually Christian, and will worship Gnon and Christ as the Logos, and we will have the adequate checks for orthodoxy that the state religion of England slowly abandoned. The sovereign should get to decide what superior holiness is.

        • Mr.P says:

          Great book.

          Got it from inter-loan library and read it based on a recommendation in a previous thread.

          I didn’t see much holiness spiraling in the book *per se*, guessed the worst of it occurred before where the book picks up the story (could be, probably am, wrong, though).

          What the book depicts and details is relentless, unrelenting, merciless Whigism.

          A painful instructive read, to be sure.

  30. BC says:

    Sweden bans CQ/HCQ in goverment hospitals. The holiness spiral continues.

    • pdimov says:

      Sweden continues to selflessly serve as a control group. We should be grateful for their sacrifice.

    • The Cominator says:

      Source? I’d like to see the details on this and I can’t find it.

      • Fred says:

        Check Google News for chloroquine sweden etc – there’s a few stories, eg. this one.

        The official justification is “side effects” (funny how no other country ceased use on that basis).

        • Mike in Boston says:

          Amateurish sleight of hand by the lying media. The NYT article claims the Swedish hospital stopped giving hydroxychloroquine. Follow two links to the original Gothenberg Post article in Swedish, and all I read is that they have stopped giving chloroquine, not hydroxychloroquine.

          Chloroquine, of course, is significantly more toxic than hydroxychloroquine.

          It is hydroxychloroquine, not chloroquine, that is part of the standard treatment for patients with respiratory failure at (for example) Yale New Haven Hospital in the U.S. (just to pick a documented example.)

          It is hydroxychloroquine, not chloroquine, that the Italian FIMMG (basically, “federation of general practitioners”) has established as the standard treatment to be given at the first signs of illness from the Wuhan virus.

          If I bothered reading the NYT, which I don’t, I would not expect either of these to be mentioned.

          • jim says:

            Yale New Haven is big news. It indicates Cathedral capitulation. Expect an end to gotcha questions on hydroxychloroquine in press conferences.

            I did not expect this.

    • ten says:

      Fake news.

      Because doctors have been allowing anyone to get chloroquine prescribed, we are running out of it, and Läkemedelsverket (medicine bureau) restricted prescription to only doctors with specialist competence in reumatology, dermatology, STDs and juvenile medicine – for public prescriptions. For the hospitalized nothing changed, except apparently the biggest hospital in gothenburg didn’t want to use CQ anymore, but that is not part of medicine bureau policy.

    • If true, it means hospitals should use HCQ and blood transfusions instead of blood plasma. Second, it means we might want to ramp up our hemoglobin production, just in case. Iron and folic acid. The generally accepted eat meat and work out stuff is a right way for that. Beef is a good source for both. Maybe with some hacks like a bit more liver, organ meat, oyster or shellfish. Coffee and calcium from milk and dairy seem to block iron absorption, so while those are usually good things, in these times one might go easier on them.

    • Dave says:

      Meanwhile at the original link:

      Error
      410
      This account is under investigation or was found in violation of the Medium Rules.

      There are thousands of stories to read on Medium. Visit our homepage to find one that’s right for you.

      You really should post the whole text here, in case web.archive.org also decides to censor it.

        • jim says:

          This makes sense out of all the seemingly confusing and inconsistent information about Wu Flu.

          hydroxychloroquine makes hemoglobin look different to both the malaria eukaryote and the Wu Flu virus, even though they are wildly different organisms.

          The implication is that mechanical ventilation is at best irrelevant, unless the patient is going into a coma, and at worst deadly, which had already become obvious.

        • Dave says:

          Yet daily deaths continue to increase, or decline slowly. Either HCQ doesn’t work in some people, or they’re getting it too late, when their blood is already useless sludge.

          Someone on Twitter mentioned a shortage of Zinc tablets. I know where to get 2400mg of zinc for $0.01. Take an American penny dated 1982 or later and scratch off the copper coating!

          • The Cominator says:

            “Yet daily deaths continue to increase, or decline slowly. Either HCQ doesn’t work in some people, or they’re getting it too late, when their blood is already useless sludge.”

            In NY and NJ (Michigan too) the Democratic governors made it so you can’t get it early unless the doctor is willing to break a lot of rules that could potentially get him in a lot of trouble.

            Zelenko (who being a Hasidic jew with Hasidic jewish patients doesn’t have to give a shit about Cuomo’s orders and whos patients won’t rat him out) proved it worked.

          • BC says:

            It’s likely people are getting it too late. If the virus stripping hemoglobin of the ability to transport oxygen is correct people need to hydroxychloroquine ASAP to reduce the damage from it.

          • jim says:

            > Either HCQ doesn’t work

            Or, more likely, the people who are dying are not getting the treatment.

            Thus survey indicated a very low rate of hydroxychloroquine dispensing to very ill Wu Flu patients in the US. Killing people out of political correctness, people choosing to die rather than live in a politically incorrect fashion.

            • BC says:

              “people choosing to die rather than live in a politically incorrect fashion.”

              Hmm, not sure that’s a bad thing. Should leave the surviving group less committed to mass insanity.

    • The Cominator says:

      The idea that there is ever going to be a vaccine for this is big pharma/derp state propaganda.

      Coronavirus (like most forms of influenza) is an RNA virus and exhibits antigenic drift…

      A vaccine for it cannot work for the same reason a flu vaccine cannot work. Luckily RNA viruses other than influenza if bad tend to mutate into more benign forms.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigenic_drift

      • Strannik says:

        So the Russians and the Israelis are ”Big Pharma/Deep State”? Lol…

        Although I agree with the probability that this will mutate into a more benign form.

        • The Cominator says:

          I’m not sure why any Russians would be pursuing this given the lack of connection but the idea of an effective vaccine for an RNA virus with unstable antigens is absurd.

          By the time they develop the vaccine and get it ready to mass deploy it will no longer be very effective, just like the flu vaccine. I’m not an anti-vaccer per se but flu vaccines don’t work because influenza viruses mutate too fast.

      • pdimov says:

        Flu vaccines work.

        • The Cominator says:

          To the extent they “work” they certainly don’t work as well as the smallpox vaccine, polio vaccine, measles vaccine etc. Otherwise we would have eradicated influenza viruses.

          In my personal experience they certainly do not work, the worst flu I ever got by far was the one year I got a flu shot… I think it just weakened me and I will NEVER get one again.

          • pdimov says:

            We’ll never eradicate this coronavirus, regardless of vaccine, because bats carry it. Eradication is possible when humans are the only host.

        • jim says:

          Flu vaccines have a significant rate of death and injury, and a significant rate of failure to protect against flu.

          It is very difficult to obtain information about the effects of the current flu vaccine, which changes continually, because there are umpteen diseases called “Flu”, with new ones continually appearing.

          I am not saying it is unsafe or counterproductive. It might be, and the necessary information to judge this is curiously closely held.

          • BC says:

            I’ve gotten the flu vaccine twice. Got sicker with the vaccine than I ever did with the flu.

          • Not Tom says:

            Influenza vaccine NNT is ~30 when matched (rarely the case), ~100 when not matched. Those numbers are piss poor.

            A bad NNT for an antibiotic would be 5-10; taking Zinc for a common cold – generally considered by medical “professionals” to “not work” – reportedly has an NNT of 5 for symptom reduction.

            I predict HCQ will turn out to have NNT 50. Of course vaccines are preventative, so they’ll never have quite the same figures as a direct cure, but highly effective vaccines used against highly infectious diseases tend to come close (e.g. ~7 for measles). If the SARS2 vaccine shows results similar to influenza vaccines, then we’re still going to need a whole lot of HCQ.

            • Not Tom says:

              My post got messed up somehow, maybe HTML tags. My prediction is that HCQ will have NNT of 5 or better.

              • pdimov says:

                You’re probably not wrong, although I’d have chosen 10. But I’d like to know what NNT you mean. Is it the number of treated to prevent one death? One hospitalization? Or just to show any improvement at all?

                • The Cominator says:

                  NNT = Number needed to treat.

                  The only people outside the medical field who know that really are people who’ve spent a lot of time studying biotech investments like me…

                • The Cominator says:

                  A bad outcome in terms of the corona virus is generally considered to be death… but permanent horrible lung damage is also potentially a bad outcome.

                • Not Tom says:

                  pd is correct that NNT can refer to different outcomes. I believe for vaccines it is normally defined as “any improvement”, obviously above some low bar of clinical significance.

                  And with CV they are all related, since early treatment seems to be the key and hospitalization is a very short hop from death.

                • pdimov says:

                  You can get wildly different NNTs under different methodologies. If you base it on f.ex. days until recovery you can get a low number even if it’s 0% effective in preventing deaths; if you base it on deaths, you’ll get ~100 assuming you treat everyone and it’s 100% effective.

                  Basing NNT on lung damage (the infamous “ground glass” CT) seems a good middle ground, if HCQ does in fact prevent it.

  31. Mister Grumpus says:

    True or False:

    Only Jimmism, ONLY, with its primacy on holiness maximization and status preservation (as opposed to simply monetary profit or brute power) could have predicted our status structure’s otherwise-baffling determination to suppress the Zelenko Protocol (HCQ+AZT+ZN) for affordably treating Covid19, and also it’s resistance to reopening the economy.

    Was there any other “system” of analysis that either did or would have predicted this, or even perceived it while it was happening?

    • BC says:

      Hell Jimmism explains the poorly understood ancient events very well. The bronze age collapse makes perfect sense in Jim’s system.

    • Mister Grumpus says:

      I suppose “Trump Derangement Syndrome” is like a “For Dummies” encapsulation of Jimmism, but it doesn’t have any distinctive and discernible bones in it, if you will.

    • Fred says:

      For a while now I’ve thought that reactionary analysis has four major food groups: Moldbug, status, WQ, and economics. Economics is almost entirely outsourced to the Austrians and WQ is mostly outsourced to the manosphere. Moldbug provided the framework (analysis of power, sovereignty, etc), which leaves status (Spandrell and Jim mostly, but I remember Whiskey was writing about status a decade-plus ago).

      Analysis of status is the piece that’s being filled in right now.

      • Pooch says:

        Status and WQ are the same.

      • jim says:

        Dark Enlightenment is red pill with white pill. If you take the red pill, while adhering to blue pilled moral values and political beliefs, you are apt to wind up black pilled, behaving self destructively (“Men going their own way”, “Men’s rights activists”), or committing suicide.

        To internalize the red pill and yet remain mentally healthy, you have to believe that Gnon ordained that female sexuality should be under male authority, that female consent to sex is morally irrelevant. The red pill implies that female consent it is a mere fitness test, not something women genuinely want, hence their seemingly strange behavior with regard to rape and sexual harassment laws. To notice that, and yet remain sane and psychologically healthy, you have to believed that Gnon ordained female sexuality to be under the control of husbands and fathers, that rampant sexual immorality is not men looking a women with lust in their hearts, but women making their own sexual choices.

        When men complain about rape, they complain about Rotherham and Cologne. When women complain about rape, they complain about handsome white high status wealthy famous college athletes raping poor innocent coeds, revealing that the real cause of their complaint is not the horrible horrible rape, but the horrible horrible lack of rape.

        Hence a system where the complainant is the woman, and the criterion is the women’s consent, fails, in part because female consent is opaque, and most opaque to the woman herself, in part because they fail to complain about the events we expect and want them to complain about, while actually complaining about failed fitness tests. All rape and sexual harassment complaints are fake, as near to all of them as makes no difference, not because rape and sexual harassment does not happen, it happens a lot, but because rape and sexual harassment is not what provokes complaints of rape and sexual harassment. The complainant has to be the husband or father, and the criterion has to be his consent. Rape and sexual harassment laws fail to stop the behavior we actually want stopped, while endangering good men.

        And if you do not believe that, if you do not believe that female emancipation was a very bad idea, was immoral, either you have not actually swallowed the red pill, or else, if you actually have swallowed the red pill, if you find seemingly strange female behavior intelligible and entirely predictable and are aware of fitness tests, hypergamy, and the opacity of female consent, the red pill is going to make you ill.

        • info says:

          “that rampant sexual immorality is not men looking a women with lust in their hearts, but women making their own sexual choices.”

          I think one has to be careful with that statement. All sin begins in the heart and entertaining that thought is committing adultery in the heart(Matthew 5:28) in the same vein that he is talking about metaphorically cutting of arms and legs that cause sin.

          Especially if married. Squelching that thought process is how to avoid such a sin.

          Therefore thought control is one of the ways to help with self-control.

          • jim says:

            Starting in 1820, this hyperbole got holiness spiraled into a justification for a married woman attending a ball without her husband dressed in a manner that was effectively naked from the waist up.

            The Devil can quote scripture to his purpose, and he started quoting that scripture in 1820.

            • info says:

              @jim

              Sure. But where is the lie in the control of thought to prevent sin?

              It certainly is about taking out the pathways to evil like how Job made a covenant with his eyes(Job 31:1)

              “I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?”

              I don’t see why that is inconsistent with holding women accountable.

              • jim says:

                Our problem is not men thinking upon maids, it is maids thinking upon men.

                The book of Job was written in a time where women were property, and the laws on sex and family were sound.

                When we have restored those conditions, then it might be time to worry about male sexual misconduct.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  “When we have restored those conditions, then it might be time to worry about male sexual misconduct.”

                  Agreed. I had the impression that somehow men were just passive victims of that and had no agency to respond according to that statement.

                  But I’d argue that currently for men’s part they can regulate what they can do in order to mitigate that.

                  Perhaps I was mistaken.

          • Atavistic Morality says:

            I generally like Christian friends but when it comes to sex you guys sound really weak and effeminate, and also really disconnected from reality to the point you work against your own interests.

            Fernando el Rey Católico was well known for his adventures here and there and he has done more for Christianity than every guy and every eunuch talk you guys insist on.

            The common man one wife, but fortunately there’ll be more women and men and it’s very good that greater men have a greater amount of wives.

          • The Sermon on the Mount is Jesus telling everybody that moral perfection is impossible, that you need forgiveness. Matthew 7:11.

            The use of “adultery” carries the implicit frame that nearly every man and woman is married, so don’t be horny for another man’s wife. If you want to fuck, get married and fuck your wife. If you go around thinking about fucking the women on the street, you’re plotting to fuck another man’s wife. Christian sexual morality is only possible under patriarchy, assumes patriarchy as the frame.

            We live in a world teeming with hot young sluts, fathers nowhere in sight. We don’t fix the problem of hot young sluts partying away their fertile years by telling men to be less horny. The Left tells men not to look at women with lust in their hearts, not to flirt with them, and not to pipe them out unless said women comes on to them and gives explicit verbal consent in front of witnesses. In other words, to practice perfect chastity. And yet women are worse-behaved than ever.

            • The Cominator says:

              “We live in a world teeming with hot young sluts”

              Unfortunately we live in a world teeming with a lot of fat frumpy and dykey women (now the ones who larp as dykes may be willing to fuck men at certain times in their fertility cycle sure but still makes it pretty hard most of the month)…

              As I’ve said many times if the women were literally truly all sluts (the way I’ve heard was much more true from the late 60s to the mid 80s) it’d be a much better situation for men.

              • I am not using “slut” in the sense that the blue pilled man uses slut, as a woman who is just ready to go all the time with just about any man.

                “slut” is demonstrated behavior, hopping from chad to chad, and whether a girl ends up a slut or not has very little to do with her and very much to do with the company she kept in middle school.

                All women get wet for the most powerful man in the room, and if chosen by him go behind locked doors on thin and implausible excuses, and fall on their backs with the slightest push. The only difference is to what extent her pair bonding instinct has corroded from this happening over and over again.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “All women get wet for the most powerful man in the room”

                  But in the modern age with the internet and mass media the female view of the “room” is much expanded, they also are encouraged to greatly inflate their own value and are told they don’t need to pair bond and should defect on any guy who doesn’t fit their vampire demon billionaire fantasy…

                • Atavistic Morality says:

                  I’ve seen you making arguments for tabula rasa education twice now Cominator, this is blue-pilled drivel and you know it.

                  It doesn’t matter what women are taught, their biological instincts are always there. If an average man is not getting pussy is because the average man is a weak faggot, not because he doesn’t fit into vampire demon billionaire fantasies.

                  If women truly cared for demon billionaire fantasies they wouldn’t be fucking niggers and criminals. But only niggers and criminals seem willing to dominate them so they go where they get it. Just look at them receiving red-pilled on WQ muslims with their legs open.

                  Men that treat women “with respect” might as well use make-up, purses and high-heels, because they actually do in women’s eyes.

                • I feel like I’ve had this argument before. Physical presence is required. A girl might have a crush on some rockstar, every girl does, but if a girl’s standards of alpha are based on what she sees in the media, no man would ever get laid.

                  Girls get turned on by immediate physical cues. I know a young man who just graduated highschool. He’s not charismatic. He’s ugly, actually truly ugly, and out of shape. And he has a smoking hot little girlfriend. Why? Because he sells drugs and throws parties. The girls in his social circle see other men courting his favor so that they can score drugs and get invited to parties, and that gets them wetter than reading a romance novel about a billionaire vampire playboy or looking at jacked male models on instagram

                • jim says:

                  Physical presence matters, it matters a lot, but if it was required, we would not be able to pull chicks over social media. My current wife showed up on my doorstep and immediately moved in. She had been following me over the internet (in my adventurer Casanova identity, not my political identity) for years, net stalking me. She had investigated any woman who appeared with me in a social media photo, and knew more about them than I did, and soon after she arrived, dished out no end of dirt on them.

                  I conjecture that the reason she was following me, rather than innumerable men with far more impressive profiles than my own, was that because from time to time my adventurer identity had passed through places that she had passed through – so the fact that she might encounter my physical presence obviously made a difference, but she fell in love with an internet profile.

                  It is a good idea to have your internet shots feature you with a hot chick and a much visited location in the background. That was a formula of the James Bond movies back before political correctness made it impossible to make good James Bond movies. Hot chick with Bond in place seen in real life, followed by a hot chick becoming isolated with and in the power of Bond. Or combine the two of them. Bond and chick alone in the teleferica telecabina funicolare to a famous ski resort with famous ski resort scenery in the background, and of course it is impossible to get out of a funicolare, so Bond could have potentially done anything he liked to hot chick.

                  Thus it is likely that athletic vampire billionaire pirate king playboys are having a serious adverse effect on the sex lives of real life men. I can see that when my wife watches too many romance movies, her shit tests escalate. She went on a netflix binge, watching a romance series all day from beginning to end, and stopped screaming when I fuck her. During and shortly after the binge watch she gave me several harsh shit tests, which I passed, but passing them did not immediately restore her good humor.

                  The show featured a fifty year old billionaire murderer drug lord romancing an eighteen year old girl. I expect that the girl wound up with someone more age appropriate, because political correctness, but from watching my wife watching the series, pretty sure it was the killer that killed her screaming. Though it is slightly reassuring that the killer somewhat resembles my adventurer identity in age, looks, and lifestyle – only richer, more powerful, and his adventures more deadly.

                • alf says:

                  My current wife showed up on my doorstep and immediately moved in. She had been following me over the internet (in my adventurer Casanova identity, not my political identity) for years, net stalking me.

                  No one responds to this? I guess I will.

                  My response is: lol wtf Jim. I probably should not be surprised, but I am still surprised.

              • jim says:

                Still sluts. But now they are all waiting for a booty call from Jeremy Meeks.

          • R7 Rocket says:

            @info

            Jim says,
            “that rampant sexual immorality is not men looking a women with lust in their hearts, but women making their own sexual choices.”

            Tradcuck info responds,
            “I think one has to be careful with that statement. All sin begins in the heart and entertaining that thought is committing adultery in the heart(Matthew 5:28) in the same vein that he is talking about metaphorically cutting of arms and legs that cause sin.”

            It’s this cuckery that explains Christianity’s continuing loss against the Progressives. It needs to stop.

            • info says:

              @R7 Rocket

              Its Jesus’ words against yours.

              • jim says:

                No, it is you dumping modern leftism into the words of Jesus when there is not the slightest connection.

                • info says:

                  Where is lie in those verses and their implications?

                • jim says:

                  The lie is that starting in 1820, those words of Jesus are always used to conclude that it is OK for a married woman to attend a ball without her husband dressed in sexy clothes that are a good approximation to being naked from the waist up.

                  Which was not at all the intended meaning.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @info
                  You failed a RedPill on women question in earlier threads… you are in no position to dictate interpretations of Scriptures maintained by the Church Fathers – who can pass the WQ test.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  Do you have specific literature you can point to?

                  I do not know if historical records show this.

                • info says:

                  @R7 Rocket

                  “You failed a RedPill on women question in earlier threads… you are in no position to dictate interpretations of Scriptures maintained by the Church Fathers – who can pass the WQ test.”

                  The Word of God remains the Word of God. You haven’t shown me where I am wrong.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  If that is the case then I agree. However I don’t see how my comment said anything of that sort.

                  Quote me where I said this.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @info

                  The Church Fathers of the First Millennium who compiled the Scriptures can answer this question, let’s see if you can…

                  A 13-year old female has sexual fantasies of:
                  A) Being an independent womyn astronomerette and attracting men with her professional credential.
                  B) Getting married to a dependable programmer.
                  C) Getting beaten and raped by a train of tatted up thugs.
                  D) … wait a minute, only pedophiles think 13 year old children have sexual fantasies.

                • info says:

                  @R7Rocket

                  Of course all females once they are going through puberty prefer Chad. Whether good or evil Chad.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @info

                  Pick one of the choices. It’s a multiple choice question.

                • polifugue says:

                  The red pill with regards to underage sexuality is sometimes difficult in the sense for most people you have to see it to believe it.

                  About two years ago, I was working at a summer job as a teaching assistant, and some of the students were girls from ages 9-12. They were from semi-wealthy upper-middle-class families, but they were bratty and some of the other assistants found them difficult to deal