The Cathedral and the Holiness Spiral

“The Cathedral” was the hacker metalepsis for centralized authority, which Moldbug appropriated to describe the rule of the most holy unofficially official state religion of progressivism.

A real life Cathedral is not run by a single CEO, but by a synod of bishops, and “The Cathedral” is the Beast with Seven Heads, several conspiracies struggling with each other for power and status, each composed of several individuals struggling with each other for status and power.

Rule by priests tends that way, because warriors prefer a clear chain of command, with a single man able to give command, while priests like to work by consensus. And consensus tends to madness.

Priests want to develop a shared story, so that people hearing the story from multiple seemingly separate sources will be more inclined to believe it, so naturally tend to develop their story by consensus. Warriors want a clear decision to deal with some external problem.

We are always ruled by priests or warriors, or some mixture of both, and when too many priests acquire too much power, they butt into the affairs of warriors and merchants, where consensus is a really bad way of making decisions.

The capacity of the Cathedral to abruptly and uniformly changed its line in a cohesive and coherent way indicates that the number of individuals is not a whole lot larger than the Dunbar number. Variations over time in its ability to act coherently and cohesively indicates that the number of influential individuals changes over time, and that the Cathedral struggles to preserve it ability to act cohesively, to act like a single being with a single will, not always successfully.

The Cathedral tends to be dominated by the most cohesive groups. Thus each group struggles for cohesion, as the Cathedral as a whole struggles for cohesion. One ever popular source of cohesion is blackmail through participation in shared crimes, and perhaps the Clinton group derived substantial cohesion from this source, but this necessarily only works for a quite small tightly knit group, which may well be at the center of a larger group. To hold a larger group together requires a shared faith, and so you derive cohesion by recruiting the most zealous believer in the faith.

To ensure loyalty and cohesion, the group, and the Cathedral as a whole, recruit the most zealous defenders of the faith.

Thus competition to join the group, and to rise within the group, results in ever more extreme demonstrations of holy faith, which is apt to result in manufacturing more ever extreme things to be holy about, in order to promote oneself and one’s faction, and cast out other factions, and competitors within one’s own faction, as insufficiently holy.

832 Responses to “The Cathedral and the Holiness Spiral”

  1. BC says:

    Judge Sullivan becoming judge, jury and executor in the Flynn case is being accepted with more mildness than I would have expected. Judges have been acting in this manner for a long time but never so blatantly. Seems a like major inflection point on the path to war.

    • Theshadowedknight says:

      Yeah, I have been watching that with some interest. The problem is that it reeks of desperation. If they just let Flynn go, they have a problem where they are seen not to be able to punish their enemies anymore. However, having to work so hard to punish their enemies makes them look similarly helpless. I have a feeling that this is a major development, because the “rule of law” is being so blatantly discarded in this case that it will harm their legitimacy in the eyes of the right and right leaning independents.

      • The Cominator says:

        They want to keep Flynn under gag order and tainted because he knows too much, probably more than anyone..

        • Mister Grumpus says:

          The fact he’s still alive is incredible. We all know that the other 99% of this story is still going on, big time, behind the curtain. Such a huge deal for this one guy. What on earth does he know?

          • jim says:

            Flynn spied for Obama and spied for Trump, and they went after him because he could be relied upon to spy for whoever was president. He has to know where the bodies are buried.

  2. Mike says:

    Spectacular piece from Aidan at a much needed time. On the utter dysfunction and effeminacy of the modern US healthcare system:
    https://aidanmaclear.wordpress.com/2020/04/04/the-absolute-state-of-healthcare/

  3. loclun-midwit says:

    Is it just me or has Moldbug’s return been completely cringe? His key points haven’t really changed, there is nothing new he’s bringing to the table, aside from a reframe of the same old ideas. But that sort of thing isn’t aimed at us, that is aimed at converting progs.

    Podcasts really aren’t his medium. Every second word is “um”, and some of the things he does (FDR recital) are very autistic. He is letting the popularity get to his head, just look at what has happened to TekWar podcast. Warren certainly isn’t a genius or anything, but he understands just enough to ask good questions, whereas Kantbot only ever wants to talk about his own theories, which are now openly communist. The podcast has been stopped, with Kantbot now ditching Warren and doing some new show, at Moldbug’s request. Interestingly, the recording setup has all been donated by “a friend of the show” (Peter Thiel?).

    When confronted with a topic like gay marriage, the ancap will avoid having to be “anti-gay” by instead disavowing the concept of marriage entirely. Even when they are repulsed by homosexuals they will still do this out of fear. I think Moldbug suffers from this too, and so can only give a purple pill, or at best a half empty red pill. In fact, he is openly in favor of gay marriage. And in the latest article, saying Drumpf should resign and that the goyim are elk. WTF is going on?

    Jim, what’s your take? Is there anything of value coming from Moldbug at this point? What’s your take on Kantbot?

    • jim says:

      Namefags can never speak the truth. When Moldbug was doxed, he ceased to write anything interesting or important.

      Statistics always lie.

      Anonymous anecdote is the most reliable source, and it is not all that reliable. This is what you get when the State Religion is hostile to truth and at war with telos, logos, and reality itself.

      To verify, check out personal experience, consider if anonymous anecdote is consistent with personal experience, and consider if statistics are consistent with anecdote.

      Statistics are often reliable in stuff unrelated to their main point. If, for example, the main point is that women are oppressed and discriminated against, the data on how and where they are oppressed and discriminated are often unintentionally revealing. For example, it is remarkable how much more people discriminate against women in management if it is their own money at risk, and how little they discriminate if it is someone else’s money. It is also remarkable how customers manage to discriminate against firms run by women even though they have no idea that the firm is run by a woman.

      It also interesting that women suffer far more sexual harassment in environments where there are lots of horny women and very few men, and those men are relatively alpha, so the truth is apt to leak through the cracks in the statistics.

      • pdimov says:

        Moldbug’s writing under his own name holds up pretty well. That’s mostly because he always wrote as if under his own name.

        https://medium.com/@curtis.yarvin/plan-a-for-the-coronavirus-7db3997490c1

        • BC says:

          That article is mostly sand castles in the sky. His understand of what a goverment can and cannot not do is blinded by his lack of insight into the state religion controlling people.

          I watched this religious control with my own eyes recently. When the virus really got started I showed up for a family dinner mostly to warn people to take the issue seriously. My brother in law was still insisting it was just the flu bro and my parents both of who have underlying health conditions that make them very vulnerable. My bother has a long stand set of breathing issues which also puts him into a high risk category.

          I’d brought most of my supply of good N95 masks for family members but only my parents would take them but they refused to wear them. I explained all the reasons why they should wear them but the state religious line said that masks don’t help and thus they believed. When the state religion revised course and started tepidly say masks work I used the same arguments I’d used before and they immediately said that makes sense and started wearing them in public.

          Moldbug doesn’t get religion and his ideas suffer for it.

          • jim says:

            Moldbug does not get religion, and will not talk about sex. But by far the greatest damage that adherence to the state religion does to everyone is impair sex and reproduction, and cause sexual disruption in the workplace. This makes it the practical individual self interest of every person to reject the State Religion as Satanic and lies. Which it is. No one dares speak the truth about anything except from behind a pseudonym.

            • pdimov says:

              Moldbug gets everything, he just doesn’t talk about everything. His target audience is the same as it always was.

          • Aldon says:

            He’s a Jew. Of course he doesn’t.

        • Dave says:

          My favorite part of the plan is:

          In this reset, the Fed monetizes all financial assets — trading them for new dollars at the last quoted price. If you had stocks or bonds, you sold them all to the Fed. Your portfolio is all cash. The number has not changed.

          That’ll go over with stock-holders about as well as the Fed’s plan to “monetize” all guns, ammo, and gold bullion.

      • loclun-midwyt says:

        So true. I used to tell some of my anti-SJW friends (Ben Shapiro, Milo fans) to not bother. While they were memorizing stats and arguments to own the libs, I was noticing that all of my beliefs that were once backed up soundly by stats were now being “debunked” by the new stats.
        I suppose it can still get worse, as they fill in more and more of the cracks. Some cracks, like yours on sexual harassment, cannot even be properly recognized due to crimestop.

    • D bagg says:

      Recent live appearance was neat.

    • Fred says:

      Re faggot “marriage”, I just assumed he was ingratiating himself with his target audience. Moldbug took a swipe at fags in Clear Pill 2 (look through it and see if you can find it).

      But yeah Curtis isn’t anywhere near as interesting as Moldbug. Maybe partially because he has little new to say, and maybe partially because we’ve moved onto the Status Question (SQ) and he has nothing to add to the topic.

      And yes, he “umm”s too much.

      No idea on Kantbot – maybe just suffering from irony poisoning.

      • ten says:

        throughout UR, moldbug sometimes voiced his complete support of “gay rights” and “gay marriage”, motivated solely on “the government shouldn’t make it its business where grown men stick what”.

        I also think that “the government shouldn’t make it its business where grown men stick what” and fully support gays holding sickening scat-puke-gangbangs in occult warrens, discreetly and in maximum secrecy, and to have these places purged 40K style whenever they fail to be sufficiently discreet and secret, and at first scent of them acquiring boys to pass around like beer bottles.

        As for gay marriage, it doesn’t even make sense. Marriage is a container for sex and child rearing. Moldbugs support of it is a great blemish on his brand, displaying a curious lack of understanding.

        • Steve Johnson says:

          At the time I took his “support” for gay marriage like his support for Obama; he openly stated that his theory was that the Cathedral operates purely on the energy derived from having an enemy to blame bad outcomes on – support gay marriage because when it doesn’t work to produce something a normal person would recognize as normal but still produces disgusting deviance there’s no wrecker to blame for it. This view seems to be amazingly naive to me but there is at least a rationale.

        • Mister Grumpus says:

          @ten
          “As for gay marriage, it doesn’t even make sense. Marriage is a container for sex and child rearing. Moldbugs support of it is a great blemish on his brand, displaying a curious lack of understanding.”

          Niggaplease. Moldbug has a face, name, friends, (kids?) and parents now. And an address, phone number, license plate, etc.

          Just imagine the terror he lives in 24-7, and then see if your statement above still makes sense.

          • ten says:

            He wrote unanimously in favor of gay marriage pre doxing, while also writing all manner of thoughtcrime, and did so not in a way that seemed to be based on hidden insight, but on lack of insight – basically “why shouldn’t anyone be allowed to put a stamp of “relationship^2″ on their relationship?”.

            • Jan Martense says:

              The shittiness of his weak arguments supports Fred’s theory imo: he’s obviously smart enough to see his alleged reasons are garbage, and made no effort to come up with real reasons, so it wasn’t something he believed in strongly.

              A lot of his essays are explicitly intended to start from a leftist frame (“An open letter to open-minded progressives”) so saying right off the bat “gay is ok fam!” helps deactivate the thoughtcrime alert system long enough to get some real insight across.

              That’s all assuming, of course, that leftists are redeemable by argumentation. Which is debatable.

        • Oliver Cromwell says:

          I don’t know whether Moldbug is trustworthy or not, but it was a different world back then.

          Most people who became NRX were libertarian at that time.

          Trans wasn’t a topic and the today’s dissident view set on family issues hadn’t cohered yet.

          The world has passed Moldbug by on these topics but if he had talked about these things in 2009 no one would have read him. Not even right wing extremists of the time.

          • R7 Rocket says:

            At this point, even if Moldbug started using a completely new pseudonym, he wrote so much that his distinctive writing style would be detected.

            • oliver cromwell says:

              Which of course was largely the point. Moldbug made very clear that he was a frustrated poet.

    • jim says:

      “who could it be”?

      Yet another FBI shill, that is who it is.

      If you are not an FBI shill, post something that could not be posted on a company mailing list scrutinized by the company Human Resources Department.

      Your report presupposes that Building seven went straight down, when anyone can see it fell into the square to the south of it, fell over towards the fire and towards the side structurally damaged by the terrorists, as anticipated and expected by fire fighters who were in the square to the south of it, and decided to skedaddle before it fell on them. You can see it tilting towards the square in videos of the fall, and the rubble pile was centered in the square, not centered on the foundations.

      • The Cominator says:

        Don’t even give these shills attention anymore…

        We have enough of a problem with hystericals who think this shutdown should continue.

        • Mike says:

          Isn’t the only reason we had to do this shutdown in the first place is because we didn’t isolate individual cases immediately and close all our borders/flights? If that is indeed the case, how can we open up now? When the cases have infiltrated everywhere and are no longer possible to isolate in a single city or area?

          • The Cominator says:

            We have to open up soon casualties be damed. But if the Zelenko protocol is followed shouldn’t be many casualties.

            • R7 Rocket says:

              Mass starvation is real.

              Dr. Fauci’s numbers and graphs are fake.

              • Mike says:

                Assuming his projections are fake, we still have somewhere in the area of 500,000 very real cases spread across every conceivable area of the country. Are they just going to magically disappear when you open up freedom of movement again? I wish as much as you do that we did it the Chinese or South Korean way when this all began (with hindsight, I admittedly was not advocating for that at first). But we didn’t and now we are paying the consequences.

                • The Cominator says:

                  The US permanent bureaucracy is not competent to do what South Korea did. If it cannot be controlled it must be endured causalties be damned but if the Zelenko protocol is followed they aren’t necessary.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @Mike

                  “area of 500,000”

                  The numbers you presented are completely fake.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @Mike

                  There are asymptomatic carriers, which means no denominator for deaths vs infections. Every single percentage being derived from a fake denominator are completely fake.

                  There are probably much more COVID19 infections than “500,000.” Because of the asymptomatic carriers.

                  And the death numbers are fake due to the bureaucracy forcing hospitals to count deaths from other causes as “COVID19 deaths.”

                  These urbanite scum are disrupting our food supply and are banning seeds.

                • The Cominator says:

                  I imagine that the real causalties are overwhelmingly urban boomers with TDS (yes old people are mostly Republican but NAM old people in Northern cities likely to be overwhelmingly dem) who are not demanding Cloroquine.

                  Why should we care if Democrats die?

  4. The Cominator says:

    BTW everyone here should start regularly using the term “Cloroquine denier”. We should answer any derangement that follows this with “the science is settled”.

    • Mister Grumpus says:

      “Chloroquine Denier”

      Fucking nailed it. +1.

    • Fred says:

      They’re targeting zinc as well. I saw some pompous halfwit MD on Twitter the other day asking what effect zinc could possibly have on the virus.

      Again, they’re utterly unaware the entire world is prescribing CQ/HCQ and zinc. It’s the traditional gleichschaltung playbook – pompous pushback by the prestige press, angry attacks by the lower-ranking members – but it doesn’t work in the era of pervasive, bidirectional social media, and they haven’t noticed.

      • BC says:

        The Cathedral has stopped pushing back on HCQ and Zinc now. A recent post on reddits /r/politics attacking Trump for recommending zinc and HCQ had around a 1/4th of the commits hitting back against against against the hit piece and hitting back with great authority. Typically the comments are 1000 to 1 against Trump in such posts. They’re about to quietly forget they ever opposed it.

        • Not Tom says:

          The new narrative will be “we were never really against it, we just said it was unproven“, ignoring that Trump said the exact same thing (“it looks promising, we’ll see”).

          It’s disgusting, really. All of the shitlibs who violently opposed border controls are now saying Trump didn’t close them early enough; they violently opposed masks but now Trump hasn’t done enough to produce/import more; and the second a localized HCQ shortage pops up, it will be Trump’s fault for not stockpiling enough. And even though he’s been right about everything so far, he’ll have been “spreading misinformation” the whole time. They don’t even wait a few days between switching narratives; in their minds they truly believe that they were right about everything all along, even though today’s narrative clearly contradicts yesterday’s.

          But on the plus side, I think more people than ever are noticing their shamelessness, which is why Trump’s approval is so high.

          • Atavistic Morality says:

            It does make one sick to his stomach, sometimes really makes one want to go full Cominator on these people.

            • The Cominator says:

              Give yourself to the dark side…

              • Atavistic Morality says:

                We are all dark side here.

                Your anger is justified, but what you need is your männerbund, not a scalp. You might think my opposition is born from sentimentalism, but it’s born out of understanding and experience. Been there, done that, and also way worse than you can imagine, it’s no good.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “Been there, done that, and also way worse than you can imagine, it’s no good.”

                  Why what right wing death squad were you in lol…

                • jim says:

                  We have tried right wing death squads – not me personally, but lots of people have. They have limited effectiveness. Chile has returned to the the Holy Faith of Progressivism, and Indonesia is well on the way. Duterte is only having limited success.

                  The death squads of Sulla did not set things right, and the death squads of Augustus Caesar did not set things right, though they may well have established the necessary preconditions for Augustus Caesar eventually setting things right. But things under Augustus continued in the toilet for a long time after he stopped using death squads.

                  King Charles the Second, however, gave us empire, science, technology, and industrialization with a lot of firings, only a handful of executions and burning one intransigently holy heretic at the stake.

                  It is obviously effective for a sovereign to kill a man who covets his sovereignty, but a group of men is trickier, for a large group of men is organized around an idea, and killing the hosts of that idea merely raises the status of that idea. You have to make the idea low status. Low status is sufficient, and death squads are insufficient.

                  Communism never came back after Suharto killed them all, but the universities of Indonesia are now full of cultural Marxists, many of them childless women.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “We have tried right wing death squads – not me personally, but lots of people have. They have limited effectiveness. Chile has returned to the the Holy Faith of Progressivism, and Indonesia is well on the way. Duterte is only having limited success.

                  The death squads of Sulla did not set things right, and the death squads of Augustus Caesar did not set things right, though they may well have established the necessary preconditions for Augustus Caesar eventually setting things right. But things under Augustus continued in the toilet for a long time after he stopped using death squads.”

                  Augustus Caesar was calling himself “Gaius Julius Caesar Divii Filius” (ie son of the divine) long before Actium but without him killing his enemies he never could have created the Imperial cult or have proclaimed that his “Gens” was divine.

                  Without the death squads he could not have installed the new religion.

                • jim says:

                  > Without the death squads he could not have installed the new religion.

                  Likely true, but is a lot easier to install a Divine Right Monarch under God, than to ensure adequate worship of the God King.

                • The unironic God-Emperor was a form of religious belief proper to the Greco-Romans. Their religion was taken very seriously, and the heroic demigod was a well-accepted part of their faith. Augustus could call himself Divii Filius because Romans really believed that the gods would walk among them. The transactional nature of the relationship between man and divine (sacrifice->blessing) in their society translates very well to a living, breathing god who you can actually curry for favor. Jupiter is capricious; look how seriously the Romans took omens before the Imperial cult obviated the need for them. The deification of Caesar completed the Classical system of religious belief.

                  Westerners believe in a divinity that works primarily through the laws of nature; miracles are the exception that proves the rule. We are more like the Chinese than the ancient Romans; the ruler with the mandate of heaven, who is in harmony with the laws of gnon, is something much easier for us to swallow. The Progressive cult takes great pains to pretend that it is in harmony with natural law and thus has divine right, by taking credit for the science that it is destroying.

                • jim says:

                  For us, divine right, King under God, works a whole lot better. Cult of personality is a big pain, and contrary to our traditions and beliefs.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Augustus was careful to stop short of claiming he was a living god. What i think the Imperial cult did say (its kind of complicated figuring this out) was the Imperial family’s gens (a sort of family spirit) was divine via the deified Julius Caesar. Caligula and a few other Emperor’s claimed they were living gods.

                  In the provinces i think the living God thing was more unambiguous.

                • jim says:

                  The Jews interpreted the personality cult of the emperor as straight worship, violating the ban on graven images, even if no literal images were involved. That is how it looked to them in the provinces.

                  Of course the Jews were notoriously unreasonable, but from what we know of the emperor cult, and comparing it with modern personality cults, looks like they were being reasonable on this matter. Mao was not a living God either, except he was, and it is to the great discredit of Russian Jews that they failed to call out the cult of Stalin as violating the ban on graven images.

              • Atavistic Morality says:

                I haven’t been in a literal right wing death squad, we haven’t had such an open war in many decades. But I’m very well acquainted with violence, a very lot worse and a very lot darker because they were not words, but actions taken in real life.

          • Mr.P says:

            “It’s disgusting, really.”

            And terrifying.

            Precisely the mindset that will justify, righteously, unspeakable atrocities.

            I have a liberal friend who has moved the goal post so many times, they’re snagged somewhere in a corn field in the middle of Iowa.

        • jim says:

          What originally got me pissed off with the left was when they overnight reversed on Pol Pot, suddenly remembered themselves as always opposing Pol Pot, and overnight rewrote history so that Ronald Reagan had imposed Pol Pot on Cambodia rather than the Democrats imposing Pol Pot on Cambodia.

          Most people did not seem to notice, and accepted the new version of history, but they are paying more attention to Wu Flu and hydroxychloroquine. This reversal is going to burn them.

          • Not Tom says:

            The internet remembers everything. Those press conferences and hysterical Orange Man Bad columns and headlines aren’t going to go away.

            Oh, the progressives can avert their eyes, and they will, but getting on the bad side of the medical research community during a pandemic? Not the path to high status.

        • Fred says:

          The whole chloroquine thing has been a very public test, and a very public failure, of the left’s gleichschaltung-ification machinery, which is ill-adapted for a world of pervasive, bidirectional social media.

          My favourite bit was when they deleted those Bolsonaro tweets – which shows that they’re starting to censor foreign heads of state to maintain gleichschaltung. Let that sink in for a minute. That’s how desperate they are (the guy was probably just quoting his health department anyway).

          • Steve Johnson says:

            What is has shown isn’t exactly that their coordination methods fail in an age of bidirectional social media but that their coordination methods are purely optimized under conditions of priestly epistemology where whatever everyone agrees to say in coordination is the “truth” and they have the power to ride out any doubters by simply obstinately sticking to the story.

            The process ran and it spit out the conclusion to reject HCQ not because HCQ worked and they didn’t like it but because it was easy to coordinate their side on that message so they did. That it works and people are motivated enough to bypass the official truth will end up being a huge problem for them because people aren’t going to forget it.

          • Mister Grumpus says:

            @Fred:
            “The whole chloroquine thing has been a very public test, and a very public failure, of the left’s gleichschaltung-ification machinery.”

            Well… no one likes a defeatist but…

            It’s early May already (a month after @Fred’s post above) and New York is still sitting on its HCL. Or they dumped it into the East River at midnight.

            Costa Rica? Morocco? Senegal? Kicking ass. But New York? Nope.

            We’ve still got these hacks in the FDA/CDC/wherever sending out warnings that now, in 2020, “that was then” and now HCL can kill you, or shrink your dick, or whatever.

            And then there’s this jerk suing, like in court, I’m serious, to keep it from being prescribed until someone sends a team to “inspect” its factory in India? I shit you not.

            “Hydroxychloroquine News” on Twitter is still going strong, but even Tucker/Sean/Laura have dropped the subject for now. That’s pretty chilling I have to say, and isn’t at all what I expected either a month ago (early April) either.

            I have to confess that I’m impressed by these murderous mad priest motherfuckers. Bloody horse heads are appearing in beds right across the Anglosphere.

            • Mister Grumpus says:

              Oh, and Uganda too now. Fucking Uganda. Curing cases left and right. Jesus.

            • Fred says:

              The anti-chloroquine campaign seems to have been partially successful, but nowhere near as successful as it would have been 10 years ago, which in turn is nowhere near as successful as it would have been in 2000, which in turn is nowhere near as successful as it would have been in 1990. The internet did that.

              From the looks of it, it convinced blue Americans and their bootlickers in western Europe (judging from the death rates in western Europe – they musn’t be using HCQ). No-one else (eg. check this user’s state-by-state graphs. Latin America is keeping things in check with HCQ and zinc. Evidently Africa too.

              Whereas if this were 1990, all the cathedral would have to do is drop a single anti-chloroquine article in the prestige press (say Time magazine), and the entire world would be synchronised.

      • Pseudo-chrysostom says:

        >“he Cathedral is parasitic and feeds off prosperity. Without an economy, it remains without a source of income except printing money, and this doesn’t work indefinitely.”

        >You are assuming that the priests understand or even care about economics, proper understanding of economics is impure and unholy. Khmer Rogue style controls over Trump voters in flyover country is pure and holy. Their goals are not rational.

        A liberal wants people to the right of him, so that organisms of greater potency are created, sources of surplus capital that can be leeched off of. You could say this makes him an enemy to people to the right of him. But people to the *left* of the liberal are *also* his enemies; in certain ways even more so. They represent a constant ‘background pressure’ to push the ideological weapons he himself uses to gain and maintain the status necessary to extract capital further along to their teleological conclusions, threatening to upset the pseudo-equilibrium of whole play-act, which exists always in a state of unstable tension (a state he himself exists in, in person).

        He rarely has any principled basis to oppose this as well, so the only real way to keep a lid on things is unprincipled opposition. Which in of itself creates a further ‘meta-tension’, where the lefter-than-thous imagined holy victimhood finds elements of reification, causing yet greater mutational intensification of the strain in response to tactics of ‘the man’ keeping them down.

        Our mid twentieth century minions of satan that served as underlords certainly had a manner of understanding economics; they were more or less successful at riding the tiger between, 1, patronizing justifications to make marks into cattle they can leech capital off of, and 2, not let those justifications actually play out to the point of crashing the gravy train (and 0, not appear to be visible or obvious examples of people exercising power while doing so; or perhaps more esoterically, a zeitgeist that specifically selects for such sort of power, and such sorts of actions following naturally as an entailment inherent to such sort of power).

        And then they died, and none of like kind to take their place.

        By design even, ironically; they were quite assiduous in working to ensure an systemic conflux where it would be as difficult as could possibly be gotten away with for such sorts of beings of actual virtue (which is to say, actual potential for competition) to grow in status. Chief of all being alike kinds cohering into organisms of greater power; decohering the organization of such sorts in particular (usually entailing the decohering of organization, in general, as an inevitable externality), by various means, naturally being the number one priority. Such efforts were of course quite successful, in a manner of speaking. The guarantee of no rivals also guaranteed no heirs.

        Hypocrisy, after all, is vice’s tribute to virtue. Can’t get hell without being heavenly enough to make it stick! There’s a terminal shortage of (nominally) strait white men in the cadres of daemonhosts these days, which as we all know is no way to run an organization. Few to no ‘fiendish clevers’ in pride of place now to keep the playbooks updated; people doing leftism today are using essentially the same ideological innovations that debuted decades past. Great success at doing leftism is realized in ensuring you die with no legacy.

        The trouble tends to be the tendency to take everyone elses legacy along with it too, of course.

        • jim says:

          > > > “The Cathedral is parasitic and feeds off prosperity. Without an economy, it remains without a source of income except printing money, and this doesn’t work indefinitely.”

          > > You are assuming that the priests understand or even care about economics, proper understanding of economics is impure and unholy. Khmer Rogue style controls over Trump voters in flyover country is pure and holy. Their goals are not rational.

          > A liberal wants people to the right of him,

          No a liberal does not. Everyone to the right of him is an evil obstacle obstructing the immanentization of the eschaton, who needs to be destroyed.

          • Pseudo-chrysostom says:

            Maybe we are using the same word to describe different people then.

            I am thinking of people like John Maynard Keynes, or Francis Fukuyama, or indeed Saul Alinsky, who surely can’t be accused of not having at least a sense of what sort of game they were playing.

            • The Cominator says:

              Keynes may have been willing to tolerate people to the right of him. He had a strange and mostly wrong view of economics but probably wasn’t a fanatic.

              Fukuyama probably considered anyone to the right of him an obstacle to immanentization of the eschaton (ie the “end of history”) and Saul “I dedicated my book to the 1st rebel” Alinsky definitely wanted to murder everyone vaguely to the right of him followed by torturing to death his fellow leftists for insufficient leftism.

              These people are insane and evil and if you truly understand them you’d understand why I think the Suharto solution is necessary.

              • Pseudo-chrysostom says:

                Yes, i put them in order of relative fanaticism.

                Im getting the feeling that you’re replying to a conversation im not a part of though.

              • Pseudo-chrysostom says:

                Also, the foibles of word use; ‘want’ vs ‘need’.

                Perhaps ‘want’ wouldn’t have been the best word to use, since it implies a level of (self-)awareness of the dynamics at play that may not necessarily be the case.

                The archetypical mid twentieth century liberal *needed* people to the right of him, to keep the gravy train rolling; but the very means he used to get that gravy in the first place threatens that gravy, and moreover, inevitably crates people to the left of him as well, who inevitably threaten to use the same means he uses, against him in turn.

                In general, no principled means exists to validate maintenance of such a state of affairs, it’s maintenance coming mainly by of unprincipled exceptions, a meta-stability of different forces playing off against each other. I mentioned Fukuyama since he came perhaps the closest anyone else has to outright stating the aims and principles underlining just such a ‘liberal order’, and you can see it commentary or responses he’s had to, how shall we say, more strident individuals (more consistent believers in the publicly disseminated faces of ‘liberal ideals’) on his ‘team’ that their cleavage to following the nominal ideals with greater faith to their logical conclusions threatens to upset the gravy train, but he can’t quite come out and enumerate exactly why in a way that doesn’t just lift the whole curtain on the business.

                • jim says:

                  Stalin could announce socialism, and then kill everyone who doubted what they were getting was socialism, or though it insufficiently socialist, as well as everyone who thought it was socialism and that they did not much like socialism. Fukuyama announced the end of history, but was in no position to kill everyone who doubted that the end of history had arrived, or even those who were not happy with the ending.

                • Pseudo-chrysostom says:

                  There was a good article written by a man who may or may not have been moldbug some years ago (this was during the period after he stopped updating UR but before he started namefagging in public) that touched on this topic, titled ‘so you think america is not a communist country’ (if i recall correctly).

                  Unfortunately, it was posted to socialmatter, which is now defunct, and i have been unable to relocate it.

    • pdimov says:

      “Denier” is a label the Cathedral uses on its enemies.

      • The Cominator says:

        Thats why we should all start saying it in regards to people who are against cloroquine.

        • pdimov says:

          Arguably an effective rhetorical strategy when targeting normies, but I can’t help but note that when I hear someone using “denier”, I immediately assume him to be a Cathedral shill and pay no more attention to his opinions.

          • The Cominator says:

            The target of the “Cloroquine Denier” campaign is not to be the already redpilled…

        • Allah says:

          Don’t understand why, but using leftist tactics against leftists rarely if ever works. There’s always that “who are you kidding?” reaction from them. Regardless, all “men of goodwill” should avoid dishonesty.

          • The Cominator says:

            4channers and Trump used leftist tactics very successfully in 2015 and 2016. Cuckservatives cannot use leftist tactics but that is because they prefer to lose.

            I have no goodwill towards leftists.

          • pdimov says:

            Appropriating their words, phrases, concepts, hashtags and using them rhetorically against the leftists themselves works, but unfortunately doesn’t seem to achieve anything lasting. It only feels like winning.

            • BC says:

              I don’t know, fake news, a term that Trump stole from the media has been driving them mad for years now.

              • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                The term could be upgraded to “the suicide press” or “suicide media” given what we have seen.

    • Mister Grumpus says:

      OK that’s it. Case closed. Cominator called it.

      The latest Ingraham Angle on Fox News has a segment about the “Denial” of Hydroxychloroquine in the medical establishment as an effective Covid19 treatment. “Denial.” Both in the spoken words and on the text-overlay at the bottom of the screen. Go see for yourself.

      This little creek of ours is upstream of some very wide rivers indeed.

      • jim says:

        And some rivers run deep where you cannot see them.

        • Mister Grumpus says:

          If you look back and see 1000 people behind you, that means that up the road and out of sight there’s someone that far ahead of you.

      • BC says:

        I’ve already used HCQ Denial on reddit it a few times and it’s effective. HCQ Denier doesn’t really work in the context of the debate currently, but that might come later. Though I need to setup some new accounts, the moderators keep banning my accounts from the main subs whenever they notice me being effective.

    • Fred says:

      Apparently there’s a clinical trial of HCQ under way. I can find no mention of zinc though, which is suspicious.

      • jim says:

        The trial is being slow walked, and is designed to fail, or generate results that after suitable massage and manipulation can be inconclusive.

        The results are not going to come out until they see which way the wind blows.

        It is not a trial to test the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine. It is a weather vane that will point to the direction the wind blows.

        In the event that it concludes that hydroxychloroquine is effective, this will reflect Trump’s success in deporting “unaccompanied children” and firing the guy congress appointed to spend two trillion dollars in relief money, rather than the fact it is effective. Results will come out when Trump gains supremacy over the health priesthood, or is overthrown, and will reflect Trumps success in milking the emergency to grab power, or the permanent government’s success in milking the emergency to grab power and preventing Trump from doing so.

        • Mister Grumpus says:

          I don’t fully follow you here, but in a couple weeks I’ll come back to this and expect I’ll better understand you then.

          Because at present, naively, I can’t get my head to imagine that the Zelenko Protocol being “scientifically verified“ to cure people-

          -could also be spun to prove why Orange Man Bad.

          So the fact that you’ve thrown this flag onto the field now is a bold and future-falsifiable move. Bravo.

        • Mister Grumpus says:

          My turn for a falsifiable prediction:

          From what I can tell (and I see what I hope to see to some degree like anybody), good news anecdotes from the HCQ #CureRevolt keep trickling in, but primarily from the status periphery like Middle America and poorer smaller countries that can’t afford all this ICU death-trap nonsense.

          This could lead to those peripheral areas reopening their economies sooner, with many possible consequences.

          The building/rebuilding of repatriated light industry would therefore tend to favor those peripheral places, since people will be available to work there.

          Furthermore, speaking of “people” and “work”, still-closed Covid-heavy HCQ-denying areas would therefore lose more of their productive Wh@&$ populations to those areas also. “Head Inward, Young Man”.

          This will make Seattle, NYC and Boston even more hysterical, and will be called all kinds of racist, etc. But will the bread-winning HCQ-popping deplorable beneficiaries give a damn?

          • BC says:

            Black and Lantios are being hardest hit by this virus because they don’t wear masks, ride public transit, and are still gathering for parties that the cops are largely ignoring. I don’t have any evidence, but I suspect than hospital work in a black or Latino areas probably won’t give them the Trumpin cure out of superior holiness.

            • Mister Grumpus says:

              From “Jewish physics” to “Trump medicine”.

            • Oliver Cromwell says:

              Disease prevention is about low time preference and consistency. Blacks are not just infecting themselves, but spreading the disease to others, not all of whom are black. NYC apologises for arresting disproportionately blacks for violating distancing measures, while also apologising for the white guilt of blacks catching the disease more. 2+2=3. England’s queen’s speech makes a point of including footage of a black woman helping somehow and her mask is around her neck. That was the best take.

              Same reason Asians are trouncing whites though. If ebola strikes it big that might determine the whole thing in favour of Asians.

              • Theshadowedknight says:

                Whites do not care because this was turned out to be at the level of a bad flu. Hence all the civil disobedience now, but civil obedience at the beginning. Any plague is going to disproportionately cull those with high time preference, which will include a fair amount of whites. The majority of whites would still survive because when survival instincts kick in, the mentality changes fast.

  5. Mister Grumpus says:

    True or False:

    Only Jimmism, ONLY, with its primacy on holiness maximization and status preservation (as opposed to simply monetary profit or brute power) could have predicted our status structure’s otherwise-baffling determination to suppress the Zelenko Protocol (HCQ+AZT+ZN) for affordably treating Covid19, and also it’s resistance to reopening the economy.

    Was there any other “system” of analysis that either did or would have predicted this, or even perceived it while it was happening?

    • BC says:

      Hell Jimmism explains the poorly understood ancient events very well. The bronze age collapse makes perfect sense in Jim’s system.

    • Mister Grumpus says:

      I suppose “Trump Derangement Syndrome” is like a “For Dummies” encapsulation of Jimmism, but it doesn’t have any distinctive and discernible bones in it, if you will.

    • Fred says:

      For a while now I’ve thought that reactionary analysis has four major food groups: Moldbug, status, WQ, and economics. Economics is almost entirely outsourced to the Austrians and WQ is mostly outsourced to the manosphere. Moldbug provided the framework (analysis of power, sovereignty, etc), which leaves status (Spandrell and Jim mostly, but I remember Whiskey was writing about status a decade-plus ago).

      Analysis of status is the piece that’s being filled in right now.

      • Pooch says:

        Status and WQ are the same.

      • jim says:

        Dark Enlightenment is red pill with white pill. If you take the red pill, while adhering to blue pilled moral values and political beliefs, you are apt to wind up black pilled, behaving self destructively (“Men going their own way”, “Men’s rights activists”), or committing suicide.

        To internalize the red pill and yet remain mentally healthy, you have to believe that Gnon ordained that female sexuality should be under male authority, that female consent to sex is morally irrelevant. The red pill implies that female consent it is a mere fitness test, not something women genuinely want, hence their seemingly strange behavior with regard to rape and sexual harassment laws. To notice that, and yet remain sane and psychologically healthy, you have to believed that Gnon ordained female sexuality to be under the control of husbands and fathers, that rampant sexual immorality is not men looking a women with lust in their hearts, but women making their own sexual choices.

        When men complain about rape, they complain about Rotherham and Cologne. When women complain about rape, they complain about handsome white high status wealthy famous college athletes raping poor innocent coeds, revealing that the real cause of their complaint is not the horrible horrible rape, but the horrible horrible lack of rape.

        Hence a system where the complainant is the woman, and the criterion is the women’s consent, fails, in part because female consent is opaque, and most opaque to the woman herself, in part because they fail to complain about the events we expect and want them to complain about, while actually complaining about failed fitness tests. All rape and sexual harassment complaints are fake, as near to all of them as makes no difference, not because rape and sexual harassment does not happen, it happens a lot, but because rape and sexual harassment is not what provokes complaints of rape and sexual harassment. The complainant has to be the husband or father, and the criterion has to be his consent. Rape and sexual harassment laws fail to stop the behavior we actually want stopped, while endangering good men.

        And if you do not believe that, if you do not believe that female emancipation was a very bad idea, was immoral, either you have not actually swallowed the red pill, or else, if you actually have swallowed the red pill, if you find seemingly strange female behavior intelligible and entirely predictable and are aware of fitness tests, hypergamy, and the opacity of female consent, the red pill is going to make you ill.

        • info says:

          “that rampant sexual immorality is not men looking a women with lust in their hearts, but women making their own sexual choices.”

          I think one has to be careful with that statement. All sin begins in the heart and entertaining that thought is committing adultery in the heart(Matthew 5:28) in the same vein that he is talking about metaphorically cutting of arms and legs that cause sin.

          Especially if married. Squelching that thought process is how to avoid such a sin.

          Therefore thought control is one of the ways to help with self-control.

          • jim says:

            Starting in 1820, this hyperbole got holiness spiraled into a justification for a married woman attending a ball without her husband dressed in a manner that was effectively naked from the waist up.

            The Devil can quote scripture to his purpose, and he started quoting that scripture in 1820.

            • info says:

              @jim

              Sure. But where is the lie in the control of thought to prevent sin?

              It certainly is about taking out the pathways to evil like how Job made a covenant with his eyes(Job 31:1)

              “I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?”

              I don’t see why that is inconsistent with holding women accountable.

              • jim says:

                Our problem is not men thinking upon maids, it is maids thinking upon men.

                The book of Job was written in a time where women were property, and the laws on sex and family were sound.

                When we have restored those conditions, then it might be time to worry about male sexual misconduct.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  “When we have restored those conditions, then it might be time to worry about male sexual misconduct.”

                  Agreed. I had the impression that somehow men were just passive victims of that and had no agency to respond according to that statement.

                  But I’d argue that currently for men’s part they can regulate what they can do in order to mitigate that.

                  Perhaps I was mistaken.

          • Atavistic Morality says:

            I generally like Christian friends but when it comes to sex you guys sound really weak and effeminate, and also really disconnected from reality to the point you work against your own interests.

            Fernando el Rey Católico was well known for his adventures here and there and he has done more for Christianity than every guy and every eunuch talk you guys insist on.

            The common man one wife, but fortunately there’ll be more women and men and it’s very good that greater men have a greater amount of wives.

          • The Sermon on the Mount is Jesus telling everybody that moral perfection is impossible, that you need forgiveness. Matthew 7:11.

            The use of “adultery” carries the implicit frame that nearly every man and woman is married, so don’t be horny for another man’s wife. If you want to fuck, get married and fuck your wife. If you go around thinking about fucking the women on the street, you’re plotting to fuck another man’s wife. Christian sexual morality is only possible under patriarchy, assumes patriarchy as the frame.

            We live in a world teeming with hot young sluts, fathers nowhere in sight. We don’t fix the problem of hot young sluts partying away their fertile years by telling men to be less horny. The Left tells men not to look at women with lust in their hearts, not to flirt with them, and not to pipe them out unless said women comes on to them and gives explicit verbal consent in front of witnesses. In other words, to practice perfect chastity. And yet women are worse-behaved than ever.

            • The Cominator says:

              “We live in a world teeming with hot young sluts”

              Unfortunately we live in a world teeming with a lot of fat frumpy and dykey women (now the ones who larp as dykes may be willing to fuck men at certain times in their fertility cycle sure but still makes it pretty hard most of the month)…

              As I’ve said many times if the women were literally truly all sluts (the way I’ve heard was much more true from the late 60s to the mid 80s) it’d be a much better situation for men.

              • I am not using “slut” in the sense that the blue pilled man uses slut, as a woman who is just ready to go all the time with just about any man.

                “slut” is demonstrated behavior, hopping from chad to chad, and whether a girl ends up a slut or not has very little to do with her and very much to do with the company she kept in middle school.

                All women get wet for the most powerful man in the room, and if chosen by him go behind locked doors on thin and implausible excuses, and fall on their backs with the slightest push. The only difference is to what extent her pair bonding instinct has corroded from this happening over and over again.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “All women get wet for the most powerful man in the room”

                  But in the modern age with the internet and mass media the female view of the “room” is much expanded, they also are encouraged to greatly inflate their own value and are told they don’t need to pair bond and should defect on any guy who doesn’t fit their vampire demon billionaire fantasy…

                • Atavistic Morality says:

                  I’ve seen you making arguments for tabula rasa education twice now Cominator, this is blue-pilled drivel and you know it.

                  It doesn’t matter what women are taught, their biological instincts are always there. If an average man is not getting pussy is because the average man is a weak faggot, not because he doesn’t fit into vampire demon billionaire fantasies.

                  If women truly cared for demon billionaire fantasies they wouldn’t be fucking niggers and criminals. But only niggers and criminals seem willing to dominate them so they go where they get it. Just look at them receiving red-pilled on WQ muslims with their legs open.

                  Men that treat women “with respect” might as well use make-up, purses and high-heels, because they actually do in women’s eyes.

                • I feel like I’ve had this argument before. Physical presence is required. A girl might have a crush on some rockstar, every girl does, but if a girl’s standards of alpha are based on what she sees in the media, no man would ever get laid.

                  Girls get turned on by immediate physical cues. I know a young man who just graduated highschool. He’s not charismatic. He’s ugly, actually truly ugly, and out of shape. And he has a smoking hot little girlfriend. Why? Because he sells drugs and throws parties. The girls in his social circle see other men courting his favor so that they can score drugs and get invited to parties, and that gets them wetter than reading a romance novel about a billionaire vampire playboy or looking at jacked male models on instagram

                • jim says:

                  Physical presence matters, it matters a lot, but if it was required, we would not be able to pull chicks over social media. My current wife showed up on my doorstep and immediately moved in. She had been following me over the internet (in my adventurer Casanova identity, not my political identity) for years, net stalking me. She had investigated any woman who appeared with me in a social media photo, and knew more about them than I did, and soon after she arrived, dished out no end of dirt on them.

                  I conjecture that the reason she was following me, rather than innumerable men with far more impressive profiles than my own, was that because from time to time my adventurer identity had passed through places that she had passed through – so the fact that she might encounter my physical presence obviously made a difference, but she fell in love with an internet profile.

                  It is a good idea to have your internet shots feature you with a hot chick and a much visited location in the background. That was a formula of the James Bond movies back before political correctness made it impossible to make good James Bond movies. Hot chick with Bond in place seen in real life, followed by a hot chick becoming isolated with and in the power of Bond. Or combine the two of them. Bond and chick alone in the teleferica telecabina funicolare to a famous ski resort with famous ski resort scenery in the background, and of course it is impossible to get out of a funicolare, so Bond could have potentially done anything he liked to hot chick.

                  Thus it is likely that athletic vampire billionaire pirate king playboys are having a serious adverse effect on the sex lives of real life men. I can see that when my wife watches too many romance movies, her shit tests escalate. She went on a netflix binge, watching a romance series all day from beginning to end, and stopped screaming when I fuck her. During and shortly after the binge watch she gave me several harsh shit tests, which I passed, but passing them did not immediately restore her good humor.

                  The show featured a fifty year old billionaire murderer drug lord romancing an eighteen year old girl. I expect that the girl wound up with someone more age appropriate, because political correctness, but from watching my wife watching the series, pretty sure it was the killer that killed her screaming. Though it is slightly reassuring that the killer somewhat resembles my adventurer identity in age, looks, and lifestyle – only richer, more powerful, and his adventures more deadly.

                • alf says:

                  My current wife showed up on my doorstep and immediately moved in. She had been following me over the internet (in my adventurer Casanova identity, not my political identity) for years, net stalking me.

                  No one responds to this? I guess I will.

                  My response is: lol wtf Jim. I probably should not be surprised, but I am still surprised.

              • jim says:

                Still sluts. But now they are all waiting for a booty call from Jeremy Meeks.

          • R7 Rocket says:

            @info

            Jim says,
            “that rampant sexual immorality is not men looking a women with lust in their hearts, but women making their own sexual choices.”

            Tradcuck info responds,
            “I think one has to be careful with that statement. All sin begins in the heart and entertaining that thought is committing adultery in the heart(Matthew 5:28) in the same vein that he is talking about metaphorically cutting of arms and legs that cause sin.”

            It’s this cuckery that explains Christianity’s continuing loss against the Progressives. It needs to stop.

            • info says:

              @R7 Rocket

              Its Jesus’ words against yours.

              • jim says:

                No, it is you dumping modern leftism into the words of Jesus when there is not the slightest connection.

                • info says:

                  Where is lie in those verses and their implications?

                • jim says:

                  The lie is that starting in 1820, those words of Jesus are always used to conclude that it is OK for a married woman to attend a ball without her husband dressed in sexy clothes that are a good approximation to being naked from the waist up.

                  Which was not at all the intended meaning.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @info
                  You failed a RedPill on women question in earlier threads… you are in no position to dictate interpretations of Scriptures maintained by the Church Fathers – who can pass the WQ test.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  Do you have specific literature you can point to?

                  I do not know if historical records show this.

                • info says:

                  @R7 Rocket

                  “You failed a RedPill on women question in earlier threads… you are in no position to dictate interpretations of Scriptures maintained by the Church Fathers – who can pass the WQ test.”

                  The Word of God remains the Word of God. You haven’t shown me where I am wrong.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  If that is the case then I agree. However I don’t see how my comment said anything of that sort.

                  Quote me where I said this.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @info

                  The Church Fathers of the First Millennium who compiled the Scriptures can answer this question, let’s see if you can…

                  A 13-year old female has sexual fantasies of:
                  A) Being an independent womyn astronomerette and attracting men with her professional credential.
                  B) Getting married to a dependable programmer.
                  C) Getting beaten and raped by a train of tatted up thugs.
                  D) … wait a minute, only pedophiles think 13 year old children have sexual fantasies.

                • info says:

                  @R7Rocket

                  Of course all females once they are going through puberty prefer Chad. Whether good or evil Chad.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @info

                  Pick one of the choices. It’s a multiple choice question.

                • polifugue says:

                  The red pill with regards to underage sexuality is sometimes difficult in the sense for most people you have to see it to believe it.

                  About two years ago, I was working at a summer job as a teaching assistant, and some of the students were girls from ages 9-12. They were from semi-wealthy upper-middle-class families, but they were bratty and some of the other assistants found them difficult to deal with.

                  I managed to deal with them, but there was this one girl that really liked me, I assumed innocently. Until she subtly but rather not so subtly told me about how she loves to watch pornography and masturbate at home. She was 11 years old and had zero secondary sex characteristics, yet she tried repeatedly to get me to eat lunch and spend time with her alone. I ignored her for the rest of the summer, which wasn’t too difficult because the job only lasted six weeks.

                  Her friend, who was 12 years old, repeatedly throughout the summer was clamoring for attention from another rather handsome teaching assistant; he and everyone else was oblivious to it of course, kind of like how people are oblivious to female misbehavior in the workplace.

                  The answer is C, of course, but I know that from personal experience, not even from Jim’s blog.

                • info says:

                  @polifugue

                  “Until she subtly but rather not so subtly told me about how she loves to watch pornography and masturbate at home. ”

                  I think that may have been a major factor. Imagine if she wasn’t exposed to pornography at a young age.

                  Or degenerate culture of Ariana Grande and others.

                  @Rocket

                  Concur with prolifugue.

                  But given how modern culture is encouraging promiscuity among young females via the media and other influences what is a control group without said influence?

                  A healthy Patriarchal society wouldn’t need such fantasies since the desires for dominance have been satisfied. So a more healthy expression is more likely.

                • jim says:

                  Nuts.

                  I have been sexually assaulted by very young girls who have not been exposed to pornography at home, as a result of performing alpha for the benefit of their aunt or older sister.

                  Your strategy, that you could culturally remake women’s nature by non coercive means, was tried by the Victorians and spectacularly failed. They got a flood of bastards born in alleys, causing the Oliver Twist problem, with the result that they wound up replacing marriage with child support and the welfare state.

                  Men are polygamous, women are hypergamous. And they frequently start being hypergamous long before menarche. Culture cannot change that.

                  Victorian “hypocrisy” was that they pretended women were chaste, in order to get them to actually be chaste. Failed hilariously. And our pretense that nine year old girls do not experience powerful sexual impulses is failing hilariously.

                • info says:

                  @Rocket
                  What’s your thoughts on pedogate 2020 video?
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4uPgLMVI_g

                • info says:

                  @jim
                  “I have been sexually assaulted by very young girls who have not been exposed to pornography at home, as a result of performing alpha for the benefit of their aunt or older sister.”

                  In our modern era even the most remote communities aside from the Amish maybe are plugged into the degenerate culture.

                  Through TV,Movies, School and so on. As well as those exposed to degeneracy who may make up their friends.

                  I don’t think that sample that you know if actually existed as far as your experience is.

                  When they did a study on pornography I remember there is no one male teen/men or slightly younger that wasn’t exposed to pornography at some stage.

                  My Secret Garden which was compiled by a woman who collected sexual fantasies from various women which came from an earlier time in 1973 seems pretty tame compared to what is happening today.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Secret_Garden

                  It is full of fantasies of Chad or Alpha as you state.

                  I am not talking about pretending women are chaste but removing harmful influences to them from Hollywood and Disney.And School.

                  I am not talking about Victorianism.

                • jim says:

                  As I said, sex is too powerful and ancient a force to be much affected by culture. Victorians tried, failed.

                • ten says:

                  info

                  Are you not old enough yourself to have grown up with tween girls before porn was accessible to every kid?

                  The first girl in my class to get boobs started dressing like a whore immediately, age 10. Others followed even before they started puberty. Boob girl noticed that our very stern mustachioed 60 year old ex military teacher, the terror of all bad boys at school, the hellhound siced upon us at our darkest hours, had noticed her provocative neckline, and started bending over to give him a good look at every opportunity, without even a hint of subtlety (in her defense, she was a drooling idiot, maybe she didn’t realize that everyone saw).

                  When the tough male teachers walked by, or the cool older students, thongs just happened to pop up above the pantline, the subjects they talked about changed in direct relationship to proximity to alpha, to provocative and attention seeking, to get noticed and get in the head of alpha.

                  You will think this too depends on degenerate culture. Sure, there wouldn’t be preteens bending over in thongs and deep necklines talking about horse cocked imaginary boyfriends, they would have to resort to other measures to sneak their ways into the heads and beds of alpha.

                  No amount of sane culture will stop girls from seeking those measures.

                • polifugue says:

                  The reason why she told me about her sexual behavior in passing was that I was too autistic to realize that she was hitting on me in a sexual manner, and she wanted me to have sex with her. I was oblivious to her behavior in the same way that people are oblivious to female misbehavior in the workplace; they just refuse to see it because of crimethink.

                  Pornography is just an amplifier to already-existent sexual behavior; when or if you see little girls in action you begin to realize that you can’t fix the issue by pretending little girls are naturally chaste, you fix the issue by keeping little girls in appropriate clothing, away from alpha males, and if the father refuses to marry them off if they become uncontrollable shotgun marry them ASAP. Little girls aren’t like that because of the internet, they were always that way and we just forgot.

                  If you wish, I don’t mind keeping your kids away from the internet, it’s not too hard with software like NetNanny and Norton Family.

                • polifugue says:

                  Typo, fixed:

                  If you wish, I don’t mind you keeping your kids away from bad stuff on the internet, it’s not too hard with software like NetNanny and Norton Family.

                • info says:

                  @Jim

                  “As I said, sex is too powerful and ancient a force to be much affected by culture. Victorians tried, failed.”

                  I think that while it is powerful it can be warped by degenerate culture.

                  Just like how Homosexuality is transmitted through homosexual rape.

                  Fetishes don’t magically come out of nowhere.

                  But when the powerful sexual instinct gets screwed up during development.

                • jim says:

                  But nine year old girls wanting to bother an adult alpha male, preferably in private, is not abnormal. It is normal sexuality. For the last several thousand years people have been trying to get women and girls to deviate from normality, and have failed.

                • info says:

                  @ten

                  Absolutely not. I didn’t even exist before the Mid-90’s and only became an adult in the 2010’s

                • Steve Johnson says:

                  Thread on twitter about a therapist who now refuses to see teen girls because he can’t do anything about all the “abuse” that he has to report:

                  https://twitter.com/TheBrometheus/status/1252382560908226562

                  Blue pill witness reality; looks for the nearest man to blame.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  If that is true it is on the same vein as boys swinging imaginary swords.

                  “For the last several thousand years people have been trying to get women and girls to deviate from normality, and have failed.”

                  What do you mean? and how.

                • jim says:

                  We would like women to stop having sex with anti social bad boys. We would especially like nine year old girls to stop having sex with anti social bad boys, hence the widespread practice of clitoridectomy.

                  And life would be so much easier if women were more like men in certain important respects. And for several thousand years, people have been trying to make it so, with marked lack of success. We would like them stop shit testing and to honor their promises. We would like them to be less easily influenced by the herd of bad women.

                  > > nine year old girls wanting to bother an adult alpha male, preferably in private, is normal sexuality.

                  > If that is true it is on the same vein as boys swinging imaginary swords.

                  At six it is the same vein as boys swinging imaginary swords. The age at which it becomes real is highly variable, but nine is mighty common. My direct personal experience is confirmed by the many peoples and cultures that employ clitoridectomy. There are a lot of girls who don’t feel like having sex until they are well above fertile age, but that is not all that common or normal, while nine is common and normal.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “And life would be so much easier if women were more like men in certain important respects. And for several thousand years, people have been trying to make it so, with marked lack of success. We would like them stop shit testing and to honor their promises. We would like them to be less easily influenced by the herd of bad women.”

                  Attraction to dark triad traits is hardwired and herd influence is hardwired.

                  Women have an instinct to conform in general though and it can be influenced in good ways… I suspect a society that stresses promise keeping as one of the ultimate values probably gets some success with women keeping their promises.

                  As I’ve said the Rosenstrasse protest (whatever you think about jews and holocaustianity) is a real whitepill because it shows that programming the female herd for selfless suicidal loyalty and to hate defection and treachery (even when in this case defection and treachery would have been rewarded) is possible.

                • BC says:

                  As I’ve said the Rosenstrasse protest (whatever you think about jews and holocaustianity) is a real whitepill because it shows that programming the female herd for selfless suicidal loyalty and to hate defection and treachery (even when in this case defection and treachery would have been rewarded) is possible.

                  Women with Husbands and Children have loyalty to the tribe. Women without do not. The common way that such women are converted from one tribe to the other is gang rape. Unattached women have loyalty to no tribe.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  “The age at which it becomes real is highly variable, but nine is mighty common. My direct personal experience is confirmed by the many peoples and cultures that employ clitoridectomy. ”

                  I believe that this is much less common among Europeans west of the Hajanal Line:
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG2iFmJn3gM

                  Europeans have the latest age at puberty compared to other Ethnics. Due to greater K-selection. They also have longer gestation periods in the Womb.

                  Patriarchy selects for K-selection and ensures later-puberty that one part.

                  The other part is the North-South divide. The Tropical versus Polar peoples have differences in said behavior I believe as well.

                  Therefore this behavior may be later comparatively speaking.

                  Late-European Marriage with smaller age gaps are the result as well:
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvzNbCTzLss

                  If those other more Tropical Ethnics do this. I may not be surprised. I believe that I also read that they are historically less sexually strict compared to more Northern peoples who live nearer the Polar regions.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  I believe the alternative to that explanation is that Muhammad set the minimum age of marriage at 9.

                  Due to his despicable activity with Aisha a child of 9 years.

                  A very sick man.

                • jim says:

                  Nothing wrong with Mohammed’s marriage to Aisha.

                  There was something very wrong with his marriage to Zaynab

                  Islam is right about women because Mohammed was right about women.

                • info says:

                  @jim
                  I disagree:
                  https://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm

                  https://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm

                  What Muhammad did is wrong. In regards to how the human body works and the psychological impact.

                  He did evil. There is no condoning this.

                • jim says:

                  One can readily observe that the information in those links are politically motivated lies, for it is contrary to what one sees in front of ones nose.

                  We are disturbed that we are unable to control our daughters, and blame men, since we are allowed to blame males, but females can do no wrong.

                  The ever escalating age of consent sits on the lie that adult women are capable of consent.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  I don’t know how you may not see it. But she still had her dolls with her when the that wickedness happened.

                  How can you not find it disturbing that a child in every sense of the word is abused in this manner despite whatever she may think.

                • jim says:

                  When you tell us that Mohammed was the villain here, you are ignoring and denying the very grave problem that anyone can see in front of nose.

                  Watch very young girls light up when they are in the company of an unrelated preselected alpha male. It is a big problem. Now at six they are only playing, playing at seduction, as playing with dolls is preparation for playing with babies, but at nine, it is very common that the play gets real.

                  When you say Mohammed was the problem, that Islam is wrong, you deny what you can see in front of your nose, that the problem is female misconduct, rather than male misconduct, female misconduct at all ages, often starting at a startlingly early age.

                  It is the same denial that you can see in the workplace with “sexual harassment”. All sexual harassment allegations are failed shit test allegations. If there actually was sexual harassment, which there rarely is, it is coincidental, not the real motivation for the accusation. The reason that #metoo allegations are primarily against leftists is that leftists, for example Biden and Weinstein, are apt to rape women in a fearful and cringy way. If the accusation is real, the real complaint is never the rape or the sexual harassment, it is the cringing beta character of the rape and sexual harassment.

                  I just don’t see adult men misbehaving with girls with no boobs (OK, Biden misbehaves with girls with no boobs, but he is a whacko) whereas I always see girls with no boobs misbehaving with adult preselected alpha males. I don’t see any adult male misconduct in real life, in front of my nose, while I see no end of pubescent girl misconduct in front of my nose.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @info

                  Didn’t you agree with the answer Polifugue answered for you? And now you disagree?

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  There is no justification for sexual activity with a child. Aisha wasn’t a woman.

                  Even in Arab society at the time she has not gone through puberty which is when she would be considered an adult.

                  Which is usually the time when as women they would be considered for marriage.

                  Muhammad had a choice.

                  If Muhammad were in Prison. Even hardened criminals would be disgusted and will stab him to death for abusing a child.

                  @R7 Rocket

                  Yeah. And that doesn’t change the fact that its morally wrong. Evil is evil.

                • jim says:

                  The questions are, who to blame for the problem, who is responsible for controlling it?

                  Females of all ages are to blame, and fathers are responsible for controlling them. When you rant about Mohammed, you are excusing female misbehavior in front of your nose. And if you worry about the misbehavior of girls without eggs or boobs, , which no one who gives pedophile-Mohamed rant worries about, you ignore the far more serious misbehavior of women with eggs and boobs.

                  What is a problem is not girls being married off at very young ages. Girls being married at very young ages is the solution to the vastly more serious problem of unaccompanied eight year old girls attending an Ariana Grande concert to get nailed.

                  When they give nine year old girls dangerous infertility causing vaccinations against a sexually transmitted disease, when they teach nine year old girls to put a condom on a banana, it is like those signs “Nobody smokes hear any more”. They are telling nine year old girls “There are no nine year old virgins any more”. And they are not far from the truth. Why are you worrying about nine year old girls getting married, when they are being socially pressured to get nailed, and given the opportunity to get nailed?

                  It is far better that they get married at eight, than that they induce Ariana Grande’s roadies to nail them at eight.

                  Obviously the ideal solution is virgin marriage at nineteen to a twenty four year old man with a stable job, good career prospects, and a nice apartment. But virgin marriage at nine is a vastly better solution than getting popped by a roadie at nine, and then reluctantly married after hitting the wall at thirty four to a husband she despises after having been ridden by no end of men wealthier, handsomer, more alpha, more charismatic, and with bigger dicks than her eventual and much belated husband, which is the life path that every school teaches them, and our society is bending over backwards to facilitate.

                  It is not the roadies pressuring them to have sex. The schools are pressuring them to have sex, though a significant fraction of nine year old girls do not need any pressure to have sex, and they are pressuring the roadies to have sex.

                  Betrothal at six and marriage at nine is not ideal, but it is a huge improvement on unaccompanied eight year old girls attending an Ariana Grande concert, and the schools pressuring nine year old girls to have sex.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @info

                  You agreed with polifugue’s answer, now you disagree. You need to state what the answer was and explain why you changed your mind on it.

                • polifugue says:

                  Info, you are going to become psychologically ill from your purple pilled beliefs. You believe that little girls misbehave, but you give us blue-pilled nonsense that little girls misbehave because other men cause them to misbehave.

                  I wrote about my experience being a counselor and getting sexually harassed by little girls because I thought it would help you understand why little girls misbehaving is such a problem, a problem that needs to be resolved with early marriage.

                  I worked at a summer camp with two girls ages 11 and 12. The 12 year old wasn’t into me, she was into another counselor and tried to get his attention. The 11 year old was bratty, but after I scolded and teased her she got more compliant. She tried repeatedly to get my attention, which I ignored because I was blue-pilled, and she got desperate enough that she told me about her habits and asked me to take her virginity. I refused, but if there were another man without my sense, more alpha than me, she would have been having sex with him. We need early marriage to deal with these problem girls, before they fall into sexual immorality.

                  The age of consent is a slippery slope which denies the ability of men to restrain women’s sexual behavior. We need to abolish it in order to keep our women in line. Obviously, early marriage should be rare, VERY rare indeed, but we need it for the safety and protection of our women and girls. If our girls become uncontrollable, we need early marriage to prevent them from falling into sexual immorality, which so many little girls do.

                  Info, I want you to read this tweet about a young man who was brutally cuckolded by his girlfriend: https://twitter.com/undeadscribe/status/1254762918547202049

                  This is your fault, and the fault of everyone who promotes age of consent and goes against “child marriage.” In a just world, he would have married her ages ago, but because he did not she brutally cuckolded him.

                  I want you to read the post, and if you still remain against early marriage I just want you to know that what happened is on you and what you were led to believe.

                  It’s not like we don’t come from the same background. I used to follow the anti-Islam crowd (Bill Warner, David Wood, Nabeel Qureshi, Answering Islam) and used to tell everyone why Islam was so evil because Mahomet was a “pedophile.” This was when I used to believe that little girls were innately chaste and pure. However, now that you know little girls misbehave, and that in order for the civilized races to reproduce we need to keep girls in line, we must restore the lost technology of early marriage. If you stay purple-pilled you will lose your sanity.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  “Betrothal at six and marriage at nine is not ideal, but it is a huge improvement on unaccompanied eight year old girls attending an Ariana Grande concert, and the schools pressuring nine year old girls to have sex.”

                  Both are wrong and beyond the pale.

                  That’s why children should be homeschooled and away from where they are being groomed for abuse.

                  This is from an Early Church Father who is Red-Pilled

                  “It is not only fornication, but also the giving in marriage prematurely, that is called fornication; when, so to speak, one not of ripe age is given to a husband, either of her own accord or by her parents.” (Clement of Alexandria, IX.-Fragment of the Treatise on Marriage, Early Church Fathers – Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume II

                  https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.toc.html#P10309_2874991

                • jim says:

                  > > “Betrothal at six and marriage at nine is not ideal, but it is a huge improvement on unaccompanied eight year old girls attending an Ariana Grande concert, and the schools pressuring nine year old girls to have sex.”

                  > Both are wrong and beyond the pale.

                  And yet you get agitated about early marriage, not about nine year old girls being realistically presupposed by our school system to be fucking Jeremy Meeks.

                  You are agitated about something harmless that happened far away and long ago, while ignoring far worse stuff happening right now in front of you.

                  > That’s why children should be homeschooled and away from where they are being groomed for abuse.

                  That makes a difference, but it does not make a huge difference.

                  The big problem is not male misconduct, but female misconduct, misconduct that sometimes starts at a disturbingly early age.

                  To fix the problem, we are going to have to have stronger parental controls on females, which go all the way till she gets married. And one of those parental controls has to be the possibility of very early marriage.

                  The Victorians tried purely social and cultural controls to control women. They told women that women were not interested in sex. Governesses and girl only schools. Failed disastrously.

                  At some point you have to acknowledge that women are apt to behave badly unless stopped. And worrying about Mohammed marrying a nine year old is blame displacement.

                  The system approves of little girls fucking around and disapproves of them getting married, because it approves of females fucking around and disapproves of them getting married.

                  No, nine year old marriage is not beyond the pale. I have known some nine year olds who should have been married off. They would have had far better lives as nine year old wives and twenty eight year old grandmothers, than as thirty six year old cat ladies, better off with a grandchild on her laps showing her daughter how to be a mother and wife, than with a cat on her lap thinking about assorted bad boys who got away or are now in jail.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  As for female sex misbehavior:
                  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2939716/

                  I think Strong Fathers play a big role in preventing the daughters from attending Ariana Grande concerts and other degeneracies.

                  What you cite in regards to said concerts is due to weak or absent fatherhood.

                  There is a correlation between later age at 1st intercourse and father presence.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  “At some point you have to acknowledge that women are apt to behave badly unless stopped. And worrying about Mohammed marrying a nine year old is blame displacement. ”

                  Aisha is a child. Muhummad was a fully grown man. Who had a wet dream about her before deciding on the deed.

                  Muhammad could have had chosen to marry or not to marry. Aisha didn’t choose the marriage.

                  If Aisha is a woman sure. But she wasn’t a woman.

                • info says:

                  It was even highly unusual in Arabia:
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue9K05Mruf0

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @info

                  As expected, tradcuck info whiteknights for women while avoiding the women question.

                  Info’s Modern Christianity is wrong about women, Muhammad is right about women. This is proved by the fact that Muhammad’s religion is the fastest growing religion, not info’s tradcuck religion.

                • The Cominator says:

                  I think Islam overdoes certain things on the woman question.

                  Complete purdah is unnatural and prone to cause homosexuality. I think pre WWII East Asian societies got it prettymuch exactly right.

                  [I accidentally mangled The Cominator’s comment]

                • jim says:

                  Complete purdah is what you get with male authority plus easy divorce. Even if women cannot divorce, they can game things to get their husbands to divorce them, and just be exposed to someone more alpha than their husbands is apt to result in unpleasant results.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  The fastest natural growing religion is Islam, because Islam is 100% right about women.

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  Polifugue, that link is horrifying. Holy shit. All the men in the thread remembering something similar happening to them, and I had a similar reaction. In fact, I could write a very similar story myself. What a waste of two lives. Not to mention the children that will never be. Feels bad, man.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “Complete purdah is what you get with male authority plus easy divorce. Even if women cannot divorce, they can game things to get their husbands to divorce them, and just be exposed to someone more alpha than their husbands is apt to result in unpleasant results.”

                  Jim I think you meant to post and edited this into my post because I didn’t write this.

                • jim says:

                  Yes, I meant to reply, but by mistake I edited your comment in place.

                • ten says:

                  What more admissions do you need, info?

                  “Obviously the ideal solution is virgin marriage at nineteen to a twenty four year old man…”.

                  Regulation deals with extreme points of phenomena. If the regulated extreme point of marriage is set at the ideal, like how marriage is illegal before 18 in my system, we get to deal with the left half of the bell curve and its fallout (not mentioning that marriage itself is being targeted regardless of age). So obviously the correct extreme point is earlier.

                  Your position is that no child, only a grown woman, should get married, and with that extreme point chosen, you have to deal with the fallout, the female sexual immorality at the left side of that point on the bell curve. Are you arguing there is no such sexual immorality, or that the tradeoff is worth it?
                  Jims and mohammeds position is that the first point of female sexual immorality is the correct extreme point for regulation of marriage, so that marriage can completely cover female sexual immorality, and no tradeoff is worth it.

                  A father should know when his daughter needs to be married off, and influence her towards morality to his best ability, and in the normal case this would tend towards the ideal virgin marriage at 19. But this will not stop female sexual immorality.

                  Can you raise counterarguments to this?

                  A situation like mohammed and aisha is unfortunate, perhaps even perverse, i show mohammed no good faith. You go so far as to call it evil, jim says there is nothing wrong with it. A regulation of marriage that misses its mark, to contain female sexual immorality, is more than unfortunate, it is certainly evil. How do you weigh these evils against each other? Because it looks like the red pill is stuck in your throat and you are not making any judgement.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  “You are agitated about something harmless that happened far away and long ago, while ignoring far worse stuff happening right now in front of you.”

                  Harmless? Are you truly familiar personally with any women are victims of this kind of abuse in their childhood?

                  There are sex scandals that break out in churches about this shit.

                  And many of those men were convicted with evidence and due process of their crimes. Their victims are ruined by the experience in many ways.

                  They are still enraged as adults for what has happened to them.

                  I get clued into this stuff via this blog:

                  https://thouarttheman.org/tag/child-sexual-abuse/

                  Unless the Law in investigating and convicting the criminals are in the wrong. I am not sure how this is some little harmless issue.

                  @ten

                  “Your position is that no child, only a grown woman, should get married, and with that extreme point chosen, you have to deal with the fallout, the female sexual immorality at the left side of that point on the bell curve. Are you arguing there is no such sexual immorality, or that the tradeoff is worth it?”

                  My position is the female should be at least a teen for even the possibility of marriage.

                  In Ancient cultures at least she wouldn’t be a child anymore but a woman despite being a teen

                  The Trade-off is worth it considering the study that I referenced. A Father should be able to keep his daughter under wraps until her teens.

                • BillyDogJoe says:

                  @info
                  Since you have brought up “legally prosecuted child abuse” I’m going to have to pull out some of the Pro-Pedo proofs that sex is not innately harmful or even normally harmful. (yes some of the sources push the progressive view, but we are talking about if sex is innately harmful to kids/girls.)

                  First is Rind et Al. this study could not find a link to physiological harm done to kids from sexual activities that couldn’t be linked or traced back to already know abuse, like violence, coercion, being lied to, forced secrecy, etc.
                  the study suggested that more research was needed, and that society might need to reconsider it’s attitude about child sex.

                  Second, is The Trauma Myth. The author/researcher started research by asking for people who had been sexually abused as a child. She ended up finding that 80% or so of those that came in to her weren’t actually sure if they qualified since they didn’t feel abused as a child, and only later in life (after people telling them is was abuse) did they start to fell bad about it. (As a reminder, this was not a fully random sample, since only those that felt like they had received abuse would answer a call for if you were abused. anyone that felt the sex they had as a child wasn’t abuse wouldn’t even have shown up at all.)

                  Third is this website: https://www.ipce.info/host/rivas/positive_memories.htm
                  Many stories of minors that had sexual relations with adults on there. None of those stories feel they were harmed. (yes that site is only selecting for such stories, but it shows that they exist. Because of the stigma surrounding child-adult sex, most people how did have a positive experience with it would be reluctant to stand against the public opinion.)

                  Fourth, even in the 1880s, age of consent was not a thing, but by the 1920s all of the USA had adopted laws so that it was 16-18 minimum. Can’t find the age of marriage laws right now, but the laws came about near the same “time”. So even though child marrriage was technically allowed for most of American and European history, Doesn’t seem to have hurt us if it was happening a lot, and evidence seems to show it didn’t happen that much.

                  Finally, If evolution is true, doesn’t make any sense that a creature could survive many generations if a few touches of the “privates” will fry the brain. And if your a creationist, you would have to believe in a real sadist of a god that fries the brains of kids who had their “privates” touched.

                  (Yes I used universalist language for my points, but since neither boys or girls get a fried brain from sexual activity as a child, I don’t see too much issue with it in this case.)

                • Dave says:

                  I see problems with marrying a pre-pubescent girl:

                  * You’re delaying your own reproduction by several years, to a time when you might not be as capable of fatherhood.

                  * Some genetic defects like schizophrenia do not manifest until after puberty. Late marriage weeds these out.

                  * Early marriage selects for early sexual maturation, which correlates to smaller adult brain size, lower IQ, and general negritude.

                  That said, it is of the utmost importance that you marry a virgin, and in a thoroughly slutted-out society, you might have to dip into single-digit ages to find one. If that’s the case, you’ll have to move to a third-world country, or wait a few years until the USA becomes third-world.

                • info says:

                  @BillyDogJoe

                  I concur with Dave in many of the points he put forward in regards to evolution.

                  But its fundamentally a moral stance on my part. That mirrors the quote by Cyril of Alexandria.

                  That only those who “passed the flower”
                  https://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/marriage_age.html

                  If the proof in scripture is a higher limit than that then so be it.

                • jim says:

                  This verse is about the same issue as the story of Tamar and Judah.

                  It forbids fathers from imposing unseemly late marriage on their daughters, rather than forbidding unseemly early marriage.

                  It require fathers to allow their daughters to marry if they have reached fertile age, perhaps if they are in danger of hitting the wall, rather than requiring fathers to forbid marriage before fertile age. Frequently translated “past the bloom of youth” – that is to say, don’t make your daughter become a cat lady, don’t hang on to your daughter, let her become the property of her husband, let her cease to be your property.

                  It also relates to virgins and potential loss of virginity. It certainly does not say that the remedy for very early sexual misconduct is to lock up your daughter, let alone say that the remedy for very early sexual misconduct is to lock up the man she is misbehaving towards. Rather than forbidding marriage before fertile age as the remedy for early sexual misconduct, it requires marriage if your daughter is well past fertile age as the remedy for late sexual misconduct. It permits you to lock up your daughter if she is unseemly young for marriage, but not if she is unseemly late.

                  Judah failed to provide a husband for Tamar in a timely fashion. This was wicked, so the Old Testament implies. Paul is saying the same thing. The issue was not that Tamar was too young to bear children, but that time for her to bear children was likely to run past, “past the bloom of youth”.

                  It tells fathers that they should not abuse patriarchal authority by restraining marriage till too late. It does not tell fathers that requiring marriage too early is an abuse of patriarchal authority.

                • Dave says:

                  Billy, ipce.info is the “International Meeting of Paedophile and Child Emancipation Organizations”, an umbrella group that includes NAMBLA, just so we know where they’re coming from.

                  If you don’t “feel harmed” by early sex AND you’re now a parent of multiple children in a stable marriage to a person of the opposite sex, you’re probably OK. If you’re now living “happily” as a faggot, celibate, dyke, or slut, not so much.

                  If you occasionally indulge in gay sex, you are weak but not necessarily evil. If you identify as gay, or think of gay sex as anything but a much inferior substitute for straight sex, you are insane.

                  Penises do not belong in anuses of either sex; the only beneficiaries of anal sex are proctologists and makers of adult diapers.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  Okay makes sense. But what about in the Book of Ezekiel which assumes that presupposes puberty and then the Woman is old enough for love:

                  https://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/marriage_age.htm

                  Therefore there is a time that the female is too young for love.

                • jim says:

                  There is a time when a woman is too young to be desirable. But no limit on marriagability.

                  The phrase “marriageable age” does not appear in the King James version, Ezekiel 16, and makes no sense in context.

                  In the metaphor, Jerusalem is compared to an abandoned child, who is taken care of by a passer by, (representing God) and then married that passer by when she develops breasts, but who subsequently commits adultery.

                  That the adoptive father did not bang her and marry her till she became hot cannot be used to deduce a lower age limit on marriage, particularly as it is hard to distinguish between early marriage and adoption with intent to marry.

                  thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

                  Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

                  The implication is not that the man in the metaphor is forbidden by God to bang her before she develops secondary sexual characteristics, but that the man in the metaphor (who represents God) was only motivated to bang her when she became hot.

                  In context “naked” likely refers to the absence of desirable secondary sexual characteristics, rather than clothing. Her “ornaments” are her breasts and hair.

                • info says:

                  “Particularly as it is hard to distinguish between early marriage and adoption with intent to marry.”

                  “That the adoptive father did not bang her and marry her till she became hot cannot be used to deduce a lower age limit on marriage”

                  Perhaps. But the term “yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee”

                  Is talking about pledging himself into marriage.

                  Marriage is after all a Covenant that is made by the man when he takes ownership of a woman as wife.

                  So when she has come for the time for love after she has developed secondary sexual characteristics.

                  https://biblehub.com/interlinear/ezekiel/16-8.htm

                  He married her. Of course she has become hot which is expected. But that also helps to establish a baseline age limit.

                • jim says:

                  Not seeing a “THOU SHALT NOT”. The man in the metaphor speaks of her boobs as creating desire, not lack of boobs as creating prohibition. “Marriageable age” is a late twentieth century interpolation. You will not find it in older bibles.

                  He married her because she became hot. He did not refrain from marrying her because prohibited.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  “Not seeing a “THOU SHALT NOT”. The man in the metaphor speaks of her boobs as creating desire, not lack of boobs as creating prohibition. “Marriageable age” is a late twentieth century interpolation. You will not find it in older bibles.”

                  So why is there moral disgust when the age of marriage is below a certain limit?

                  Why the homicidal rage among men of our modern society? Why the fervent opposition?

                  Whence comes the Prisoners who would seek to kill such men violating a certain age restriction?

                  I don’t think such instinctual revulsion is an accident. Like how hunger presupposes the existence of food.

                  Perhaps it was already implicit and didn’t need to be explicit.

                • jim says:

                  > So why is there moral disgust when the age of marriage is below a certain limit?

                  Why no word for “pedophile” before 1944?

                  Not seeing moral disgust in real, everyday life, in that people do not in practice get upset when a much older man is with a much younger girl. People are morally disgusted in theory, not in practice. There is something weird going on, a disconnect between how people supposedly feel, and real life.

                  If there is rage today, why no rage centuries ago?

                  Our real rage is that we cannot own our women. Rage at “pedophiles” is a permitted displacement of our real and unpermitted rage.

                  The ever rising age of consent is a recent phenomenon. Most societies did not have an age of consent, because they figured women were incapable of consent at any age.

                  We call Epstein a pedophile because we are forbidden to call him a pimp, a panderer and a procurer.

                  Whenever you see a new word, when our ancestors had no equivalent word, then either the thing is new, or it is not a real thing. “Pedophile”, “sociopath”, “racist”, “sweatshop” – none of them are real. Such words are lies, enemy words.

                • The Cominator says:

                  They did have something they called psychopaths/sociopaths in at least the 19th century, it was referred to as “moral insanity”.

                • jim says:

                  The morally insane acted crazy and were effeminate. Psychopaths and sociopaths act sane and manly:

                  As stated by the historian F.A. Whitlock: “there [is] not the remotest resemblance between their examples [Pinel’s and Prichard’s] and what today would be classed as psychopathic personality.”[16] Prichard’s “moral insanity” was a catch-all term of behavioural disorders whose only feature in common was an absence of delusions: it is not cognate with the modern diagnostic category of antisocial personality disorder.

                  “psychopath” is a hateful word that cowards use for brave men. In life, the virtues attributed to a psychopath anticorrelate with the vices, the vices being more typical of psychiatrists and police interrogators, than brave men. There is no psychopathy cluster, it is anticoncept corresponding to an anticluster, and “sociopath” is a self contradictory cluster – the sociopath loves his buddies, refuses to rat them out, and fails to love the police interrogator, therefore is accused both of caring and of not caring.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  “Not seeing moral disgust in real, everyday life, in that people do not in practice get upset when a much older man is with a much younger girl. ”

                  Probably true in your area. But as far as I am aware in my social circle. The moral disgust is evident.

                  Unless anonymous comments like yourself and myself on the internet is bullshit.

                  I think many do have moral disgust. And that those who are convicted “paedophiles” and “rapists” get stabbed to death in prison.

                • jim says:

                  Oh they, are terribly disgusted when talking about it in theory.

                  In life, however …

                  We had no word for pedophile until 1944. If people were inclined to find it disgusting, would have had a word for it that is thousands of years old.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @info
                  Jim says:

                  “Not seeing moral disgust in real, everyday life, in that people do not in practice get upset when a much older man is with a much younger girl.”

                  Info responds:

                  “Probably true in your area. But as far as I am aware in my social circle. The moral disgust is evident.”

                  Looks like Info’s social circle is an urbanite faggot circle… or an FBI office. The two are easy to get mixed up though.

                • info says:

                  @R7 Rocket

                  The fact that you actually guessed wrong shows that you don’t know what you are talking about.

                  There is more reason to suspect that if there is a sniff that there is something advocated that is illegal like insurrection.

                  Then the proposer is a Fed setting up a Honeypot.

                • jim says:

                  A fed cannot notice female misconduct, and cannot notice us noticing female misconduct.

                  Summarize my take on the problems caused by hypergamy, my explanation of why women have to be unemancipated, the reasons I have given why sometimes, unfortunately, girls should be married off at extremely early ages, the reasons why we have to tolerate bad behavior by bad fathers and bad husbands, but should not tolerate bad wives and bad daughters.

                  What is my position? What is my explanation and justification of that position?

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  We will probably have to agree to disagree.

                  So I will wait and see. Perhaps the truth will be so airtight that it can stand up to the toughest cross-examination and due process.

                  Unless I can be sure of that. I will not be changing my position anytime soon.

              • info says:

                @jim

                “Oh they, are terribly disgusted when talking about it in theory”

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iOyOGsWrOM

                As an example of a more mainstream youtuber. Who references ample studies on this topic. Of course the Sodomites are pushing this shit too.

                I have to disagree that they wouldn’t be disgusted by this in real life.

                “the reasons I have given why sometimes, unfortunately, girls should be married off at extremely early ages, the reasons why we have to tolerate bad behavior by bad fathers and bad husbands, but should not tolerate bad wives and bad daughters.”

                Sure. But what about sexual abuse? How is that going to be dealt with?

                What about all the “sexual abuse survivors” who will be very angry at what happened that will result?

                Certainly there may actually be real damage done psychologically.

                • jim says:

                  “Oh they, are terribly disgusted when talking about it in theory”

                  I have to disagree that they wouldn’t be disgusted by this in real life.

                  Direct personal observation. Actual visceral reaction is “that is cute”.

                  If people are naturally disgusted by this, why no word for pedophile before 1944? The word pedophile was invented to normalize gays predating on small boys.

                  The rage about pedophiles is displacement from our real rage at being unable to own fertile age women.

                  You are probably imagining a fat middle aged low status man sexually harassing a terrified nine year old girl, and yes, we do react viscerally to aggression against children when the aggressor is lower status than ourselves. Sex has nothing to do with it. But actual observed events are invariably nine year old girls sexually harassing attractive high status males, and if he reluctantly indulges her a little, everyone thinks it is cute. And then they somehow strangely fail to remember the inappropriate event, and their strangely inappropriate reaction to it.

                  Since you think you should behave with righteous rage, you invent a scenario where you would react with righteous rage for entirely unrelated reasons. But actual events do not conform to that scenario.

                  If people were told they should be disgusted by sunflowers, they would imagine sunflowers coated with feces, and be unable to see normal sunflowers all around them. Observe the progressive reaction on seeing a black man attack an armed white man. They see the shooting, and blank out the fact that the gun went off when the black was trying to drag it away from the man holding it. Blacks engaging in stereotypical moronic destructive violence are invisible to them, and if they believed sunflowers to be disgusting, they would be equally unable to see sunflowers unless sprayed with feces.

                  > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iOyOGsWrOM

                  Gay predation on small children is completely different because absolutely zero boys are sexually interested in adults, and small girls are only interested in manly adults with adult female pre-selection.

                  Calling it “pedophilia” is a lie, a lie told because stereotyping gays is forbidden.

                • simplyconnected says:

                  But actual observed events are invariably nine year old girls sexually harassing attractive high status males, and if he reluctantly indulges her a little, everyone thinks it is cute.

                  Is this an example of what you are talking about, where all the dogooders act indignant but the public has no problem with the scene and think it’s cute:
                  [House MD, Chase’s kiss] https://invidio.us/watch?v=Ijuzvl8tv8k
                  (see there was no public outrage over that scene even though tens of millions have seen it)

                • jim says:

                  Accurate: Doctor handsome, massively preselected.

                  Cute. Zero outrage.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  “The rage about pedophiles is displacement from our real rage at being unable to own fertile age women.”

                  Perhaps. But what about female “sex abuse victims” who are outraged and seem to have become psychologically damaged at what happened to them in their youth.

                  All they all liars? Or is something else at play.

                • jim says:

                  Women who are hurt, are apt to tell about their hurt in the highest status words, which often have little connection to what in fact hurt them.

                  The people who hurt female children are not straights, but gays or bisexuals, which should give you a clue. The story of the daughter of famous science fiction author Marion Zimmer Bradley is always reported as about “pedophilia”, but she is complaining about gays.

                  Check out progressive discussion of her book – they are upset and angry because they suspect that what she is complaining about is not “pedophilia”.

                  “Pedophilia” is a recently invented anticoncept created to normalize gay sexuality towards children, which has always been a well known problem, which has long been known to distress and frighten children.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  And yes I did look at the link that one of the guys posted. But since its by the sodomite lobby NAMBLA.

                  I would be hesitant to trust what they say. Given how anonymous stories cannot be verified.

                • info says:

                  @jim

                  A good clue that a man or woman has been sexually abused is the naso-labial line:
                  https://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/on-gays-and-the-naso-labial-fold/

                  Many gays and lesbians and sexual abuse victims have this expression imprinted into their faces. Real evil has been done to them in the past.

                • jim says:

                  By gays.

                  Again, you are using “pedophilia” as an enemy word, to denormalize sexual attraction to fertile age women, and normalize what gays do to children.

    • The Cominator says:

      The idea that there is ever going to be a vaccine for this is big pharma/derp state propaganda.

      Coronavirus (like most forms of influenza) is an RNA virus and exhibits antigenic drift…

      A vaccine for it cannot work for the same reason a flu vaccine cannot work. Luckily RNA viruses other than influenza if bad tend to mutate into more benign forms.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigenic_drift

      • Strannik says:

        So the Russians and the Israelis are ”Big Pharma/Deep State”? Lol…

        Although I agree with the probability that this will mutate into a more benign form.

        • The Cominator says:

          I’m not sure why any Russians would be pursuing this given the lack of connection but the idea of an effective vaccine for an RNA virus with unstable antigens is absurd.

          By the time they develop the vaccine and get it ready to mass deploy it will no longer be very effective, just like the flu vaccine. I’m not an anti-vaccer per se but flu vaccines don’t work because influenza viruses mutate too fast.

      • pdimov says:

        Flu vaccines work.

        • The Cominator says:

          To the extent they “work” they certainly don’t work as well as the smallpox vaccine, polio vaccine, measles vaccine etc. Otherwise we would have eradicated influenza viruses.

          In my personal experience they certainly do not work, the worst flu I ever got by far was the one year I got a flu shot… I think it just weakened me and I will NEVER get one again.

          • pdimov says:

            We’ll never eradicate this coronavirus, regardless of vaccine, because bats carry it. Eradication is possible when humans are the only host.

        • jim says:

          Flu vaccines have a significant rate of death and injury, and a significant rate of failure to protect against flu.

          It is very difficult to obtain information about the effects of the current flu vaccine, which changes continually, because there are umpteen diseases called “Flu”, with new ones continually appearing.

          I am not saying it is unsafe or counterproductive. It might be, and the necessary information to judge this is curiously closely held.

          • BC says:

            I’ve gotten the flu vaccine twice. Got sicker with the vaccine than I ever did with the flu.

          • Not Tom says:

            Influenza vaccine NNT is ~30 when matched (rarely the case), ~100 when not matched. Those numbers are piss poor.

            A bad NNT for an antibiotic would be 5-10; taking Zinc for a common cold – generally considered by medical “professionals” to “not work” – reportedly has an NNT of 5 for symptom reduction.

            I predict HCQ will turn out to have NNT 50. Of course vaccines are preventative, so they’ll never have quite the same figures as a direct cure, but highly effective vaccines used against highly infectious diseases tend to come close (e.g. ~7 for measles). If the SARS2 vaccine shows results similar to influenza vaccines, then we’re still going to need a whole lot of HCQ.

            • Not Tom says:

              My post got messed up somehow, maybe HTML tags. My prediction is that HCQ will have NNT of 5 or better.

              • pdimov says:

                You’re probably not wrong, although I’d have chosen 10. But I’d like to know what NNT you mean. Is it the number of treated to prevent one death? One hospitalization? Or just to show any improvement at all?

                • The Cominator says:

                  NNT = Number needed to treat.

                  The only people outside the medical field who know that really are people who’ve spent a lot of time studying biotech investments like me…

                • The Cominator says:

                  A bad outcome in terms of the corona virus is generally considered to be death… but permanent horrible lung damage is also potentially a bad outcome.

                • Not Tom says:

                  pd is correct that NNT can refer to different outcomes. I believe for vaccines it is normally defined as “any improvement”, obviously above some low bar of clinical significance.

                  And with CV they are all related, since early treatment seems to be the key and hospitalization is a very short hop from death.

                • pdimov says:

                  You can get wildly different NNTs under different methodologies. If you base it on f.ex. days until recovery you can get a low number even if it’s 0% effective in preventing deaths; if you base it on deaths, you’ll get ~100 assuming you treat everyone and it’s 100% effective.

                  Basing NNT on lung damage (the infamous “ground glass” CT) seems a good middle ground, if HCQ does in fact prevent it.

    • If true, it means hospitals should use HCQ and blood transfusions instead of blood plasma. Second, it means we might want to ramp up our hemoglobin production, just in case. Iron and folic acid. The generally accepted eat meat and work out stuff is a right way for that. Beef is a good source for both. Maybe with some hacks like a bit more liver, organ meat, oyster or shellfish. Coffee and calcium from milk and dairy seem to block iron absorption, so while those are usually good things, in these times one might go easier on them.

    • Dave says:

      Meanwhile at the original link:

      Error
      410
      This account is under investigation or was found in violation of the Medium Rules.

      There are thousands of stories to read on Medium. Visit our homepage to find one that’s right for you.

      You really should post the whole text here, in case web.archive.org also decides to censor it.

        • jim says:

          This makes sense out of all the seemingly confusing and inconsistent information about Wu Flu.

          hydroxychloroquine makes hemoglobin look different to both the malaria eukaryote and the Wu Flu virus, even though they are wildly different organisms.

          The implication is that mechanical ventilation is at best irrelevant, unless the patient is going into a coma, and at worst deadly, which had already become obvious.

        • Dave says:

          Yet daily deaths continue to increase, or decline slowly. Either HCQ doesn’t work in some people, or they’re getting it too late, when their blood is already useless sludge.

          Someone on Twitter mentioned a shortage of Zinc tablets. I know where to get 2400mg of zinc for $0.01. Take an American penny dated 1982 or later and scratch off the copper coating!

          • The Cominator says:

            “Yet daily deaths continue to increase, or decline slowly. Either HCQ doesn’t work in some people, or they’re getting it too late, when their blood is already useless sludge.”

            In NY and NJ (Michigan too) the Democratic governors made it so you can’t get it early unless the doctor is willing to break a lot of rules that could potentially get him in a lot of trouble.

            Zelenko (who being a Hasidic jew with Hasidic jewish patients doesn’t have to give a shit about Cuomo’s orders and whos patients won’t rat him out) proved it worked.

          • BC says:

            It’s likely people are getting it too late. If the virus stripping hemoglobin of the ability to transport oxygen is correct people need to hydroxychloroquine ASAP to reduce the damage from it.

          • jim says:

            > Either HCQ doesn’t work

            Or, more likely, the people who are dying are not getting the treatment.

            Thus survey indicated a very low rate of hydroxychloroquine dispensing to very ill Wu Flu patients in the US. Killing people out of political correctness, people choosing to die rather than live in a politically incorrect fashion.

            • BC says:

              “people choosing to die rather than live in a politically incorrect fashion.”

              Hmm, not sure that’s a bad thing. Should leave the surviving group less committed to mass insanity.

  6. BC says:

    Sweden bans CQ/HCQ in goverment hospitals. The holiness spiral continues.

    • pdimov says:

      Sweden continues to selflessly serve as a control group. We should be grateful for their sacrifice.

    • The Cominator says:

      Source? I’d like to see the details on this and I can’t find it.

      • Fred says:

        Check Google News for chloroquine sweden etc – there’s a few stories, eg. this one.

        The official justification is “side effects” (funny how no other country ceased use on that basis).

        • Mike in Boston says:

          Amateurish sleight of hand by the lying media. The NYT article claims the Swedish hospital stopped giving hydroxychloroquine. Follow two links to the original Gothenberg Post article in Swedish, and all I read is that they have stopped giving chloroquine, not hydroxychloroquine.

          Chloroquine, of course, is significantly more toxic than hydroxychloroquine.

          It is hydroxychloroquine, not chloroquine, that is part of the standard treatment for patients with respiratory failure at (for example) Yale New Haven Hospital in the U.S. (just to pick a documented example.)

          It is hydroxychloroquine, not chloroquine, that the Italian FIMMG (basically, “federation of general practitioners”) has established as the standard treatment to be given at the first signs of illness from the Wuhan virus.

          If I bothered reading the NYT, which I don’t, I would not expect either of these to be mentioned.

          • jim says:

            Yale New Haven is big news. It indicates Cathedral capitulation. Expect an end to gotcha questions on hydroxychloroquine in press conferences.

            I did not expect this.

    • ten says:

      Fake news.

      Because doctors have been allowing anyone to get chloroquine prescribed, we are running out of it, and Läkemedelsverket (medicine bureau) restricted prescription to only doctors with specialist competence in reumatology, dermatology, STDs and juvenile medicine – for public prescriptions. For the hospitalized nothing changed, except apparently the biggest hospital in gothenburg didn’t want to use CQ anymore, but that is not part of medicine bureau policy.

  7. Jim,

    >He has no replacement priesthood

    Why, though? It isn’t every doctor that needs to be replaced, only those in key power positions. I would say a few dozen although the US is a bigger country than anything I ever saw so it might be a few hundred. Same with other kinds of jobs.

    This is important and IMHO alarming. Can’t make any serious change without that. Um. Look at what Russian Commies did. They recruited clueless peasants. How about recruiting clueless rednecks? Not into the medical, but for stuff like Dept of State or Dept of Education, why not, I mean they could be at the top, the current pozzed experts below them, and the rednecks would just let the experts work, and all they would do is just to veto stuff that smells too pozzed to them. I mean I don’t want to imitate Commies, but the Commies actually killed the experts they inherited from the Tzar, instead of just putting a clueless peasant as a political comissar above them. I am proposing the later.

    • The Cominator says:

      This is what I would do as far as journalists and lawyers once the priesthood was Nacht und Nebeled… I would start a selection process for right wingers with high verbal IQ from country backgrounds… and install them as the new academic elite in journalism and law.

      “but the Commies actually killed the experts they inherited from the Tzar,”

      We are not going to kill any real technical experts someone like Raoult should be fine regardless of his political views provided he doesn’t talk politics ever, Fauci otoh gets the helicopter. Anyone in academic medicine who likes the FDA process or who raised doubts about Cloroquine gets the helicopter.

      • I am strongly against killing. Yarvin had a good story about that lately. When Augustus defeated Cato, and his men found letters sent to Cato in support, he said burn the letters and forget it, they are all our guys now. This is not simply sentimentality, although perhaps partially so, believing we are the good guys. But I also base it on three other things:

        1) The font of honor thing works. Grasp power firmly, send them all into retirement with full pay, and the usual funny guys will turn on them and ridicule them into a status non-entity, because they want to lick the boots of the new power.

        2) The basic worldview of the demotic-democratic ideologies, including Nazi and Commie, is that power is based on consent. Hence those who hesitate to consent will be propagandized and those who seem very unlikely to ever consent (jews for Nazis, kulaks for Commies) are killed. One of the biggest reasons why I turned into a reactionary was realizing that if power is not based on consent, you do not have to propagandize or at least you only do it in unfalsifiable things but you do not have to lie about truths, and you do not have to kill. This is the point. If you think they need to be killed, you think so because you think they would not consent to reactionary rule. But the point is, for reactionary rule consent is irrelevant.

        This is really a big deal to me. The history of the 20th century was such a bloodbath because it was based on rule by consent, hence killing those will never consent. A big part of me turning reactionary is the idea that if you do not need consent to rule, you do not have to kill people.

        3) Sun Tzu. If you do not let your enemies run away, if you corner them into fighting to death because they have no other alternative, they will fight like cornered rats. Offer them an escape. Retirement with full pay and tending to your own, rather comfortable, garden. This saps their fighting spirit.

        • BC says:

          You’re reading of Roman history is incorrect. Caesar was nice to his foes and they murdered him for it. Augustus slaughtered his foes without mercy while pretending he wasn’t.

          • The Cominator says:

            You are correct BC, Caesar failed because he spared his foes. Augustus reigned with stability because he slaughtered them all without mercy.

            • BC says:

              Augustus did not reign with stability until he created the cult of the emperor. Rome was a basket case during his first 10 or so years of rule despite him killing his foes off.

              Augustus behavior was him groping towards ruling through religion rather than bruit force. Caesar’s behavior was a reaction to Sulla’s behavior of killing everyone. Augustus reaction was a reaction to Caesar and Sulla’s behavior. Augustus had the right idea of killing people without reveling in it but still making it clear what happened if you stepped out of line.

              • The Cominator says:

                He was only a Triumvir then, generally considered juniour to Marc Antony and the seas were uncrossable because it took years to defeat Sextus Pompeii’s fleet and retake Sicily.

                We cannot speak of the reign of Augustus until after the battle of Actium but the reason he could reign as a much nicer guy after Actium is he mercilessly killed everyone who might oppose him back when he was merely Octavian the Triumvir.

              • jim says:

                Augustus Caesar killed one hell of a lot of people, but then, having obtained undisputed supremacy over the permanent government, still could not bring the government to order. Everyone in the government bowed down to him, but government still did not work, as they bow down to Duterte in the Philippines, but the Philippine government still does not work. Augustus Caesar needed a state religion, and fumbled his way into one.

                Charles the second killed very few people, but he had the old state religion in his pocket, still live and ready to roll.

                Suharto killed a hell of a lot of people, and he had a state religion in his pocket.

                But the science of the Royal Society is still live. Trump could restore it to rule over science, and his talk about a Red Team / Blue Team examination of Global Warming was talk about a restoration in science. But you have to be able and willing to burn heretics at the stake, even if you want to it to be very few heretics.

                To restore old type science, Trump would find roughly as easy and as hard as Charles the second did. A few executions, and one heretic burned. Still a coup complete problem.

          • Steve Johnson says:

            Your interpretation *and* facts are off.

            Cato killed himself after Cato’s army was defeated by Caesar because he didn’t even want to accept a *pardon* from Caesar who was famously merciful to his former (so he believed) enemies.

            Of course they killed him for that – stripping them of status and leaving them alive and cohesive enough to rebel if not cohesive enough to rule.

            On this particular matter Yarvin is hopelessly compromised. Listen to his interview with Justin Murphy – start at the 59 minute mark.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRQO3VbJsMw

            Can’t blame him for it – he’s was born into that class and loves them – they’re his people (in his words). He delusionally believes that the ruling class is still capable and is operating in a bad system rather than correctly observing that they’re less and less capable and more and more fanatically murderously insane.

            You may not need to rule by consent and therefore kill those who won’t consent but you do need to have secure rule and part of secure rule is making sure that ready made conspiracies are dealt with *permanently*.

            • US and UK occupying troops in Germany were able to get the Nazis permanently out of power while only killing a small number of them, and just firing most of them. They had secure power, secure power is always based on the military because civilian conspiracies are powerless against tanks, secure power does not need to resort to violence because it is obvious to everybody that if not obeyed, they could and would, therefore, they could just tell the Nazi journalists to go “learn to code” and that was it. They just shut down all the new papers and then gave a handful of loyalists permit to start new ones who, lacking competition, easily dominated the market. This is how secure power generally works.

              • Steve Johnson says:

                To the extent that Nazis selected for bad character in their ruling members they did so in a way that was easy to fake; progressives test more intently for insanity and predilection to evil by selecting specifically for socially detrimental traits.

                Yarvin would be right talking about Nazi government; you need to switch the government then mostly the same people can rule well – he’s absolutely wrong to assert the same thing about progressive government.

                The worst imaginable version of Nazi selection would testing for willingness to torture to death an ethnic outsider; for progressives it’s the reverse which selects for worse people.

                • This is an excellent argument in favor of firing them. Which is what I proposed and which is what they did back then.

                  I don’t see how it is an argument for killing them.

                • The Cominator says:

                  The reason you need to outright kill progs and other leftists (at least the priest class of them) is their high level of skill at entryism and their ability to naturally reproduce their ideology among people who think they got the short end of the stick in a capitalist and hierarchal society.

                  They came back in Chile and Spain, they did not come back in Indonesia.

                • jim says:

                  They did come back in Indonesia. Commies remain utterly extinct, but their university system is overrun with obese blue haired feminists. Reinfected from Harvard.

                • Steve Johnson says:

                  Dividualist –

                  Yarvin is arguing against firing them.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Jim do you have a source for this, i wouldn’t be surprised if they got some leftist social science professors but blue haired feminist not what ive heard about ANY asian country except for Taiwan much less a more 3rd worldish one like Indonesia.

                  The 3rd world isnt good grounds for progressive infection, its better grounds for classical communism.

                • jim says:

                  Classical communism has appeal in the third world, because people are actually hungry and in need, so “let’s grab other people’s stuff” sounds good. But communism stayed dead in Indonesia, after a Suharto killed off all communists. Indonesia has no communist problem. It does, however, have a progressivism and progressive converged Islam problem.

                  http://www.indonesianfeministjournal.org/index.php/IFJ

                  Conservative Islam, which became the official state Church when communism was purged, correctly sees this as Christian, or a Christian derived heresy. (Someone has been reading Moldbug, or maybe reading me.) It really needs to be dealt with as Muslims have always dealt with hostile religions, and yet they are high status within Indonesian academia. So far, however, they have not dared go LGBT, which indicates they are walking on eggshells. But they are talking about going LGBT, and probably will soon.

                  Backed by “the international community”, they are having substantial impact in converging Islam.

                  The state Church of Indonesia needs deal with them as apostates and infidels, but they have power. Islam is being converged, as the Christian churches were converged.

                  The appeal of communism was always “You are hungry because Jeff Bezos has collared all the food”. It is time for a movement that says “You are incel or stuck with Jeremy Meek’s leavings, so let’s stop the pussy from waiting for Jeremy Meek’s next booty call.”

        • Theshadowedknight says:

          If you are against killing, you are in the wrong game. Politics is a blood sport–always has been, always will be. Voting was a naked exercise of military power: “I have more people than you, so I win.” Now that voting does not represent military capability, the system is falling apart. Even the purpose of the priesthood is to get as many of the killers on the same page as possible to maximize military might.

          Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who do not.

          • The Cominator says:

            “If you are against killing, you are in the wrong game. Politics is a blood sport–always has been, always will be. Voting was a naked exercise of military power: “I have more people than you, so I win.” Now that voting does not represent military capability, the system is falling apart. ”

            And this is yet another reason why female voting is such a bad idea. Irrespective of their tendency to vote horribly (I’ll make an exception for 2008 because as bad as Obama was he had to beat McCain) the fact that they have no military capability undermines voting as a convention of peace by balancing military numbers…

            • Steve Johnson says:

              In retrospect Obama was the better candidate than either of his Republican opponents. McCain was openly deranged; Romney has shown his true colors post Trump.

        • pdimov says:

          The right way to be against killing is to try to minimize the number of people you have to kill.

          This is how you tell a Pinochet from a Pol Pot.

          • alf says:

            That’d be my take as well. You do not fight every battle you can, and sinilarly you do not murder every enemy you can.

            • The Cominator says:

              Leftism has returned in Chile it did not return in Indonesia (Indonesia’s muslim problem is a seperate issue). Communism withered in Russia because Stalin all but wiped out the true believers except for himself and a small inner circle…

              Caesar was murdered by those he spared, while Augustus died of old age (well maybe Livia poisoned him, there is some controversy there… and even if Livia poisoned him she was on the proscription list at one point and was spared).

              History supports the idea that the only solution to leftism is the Final Solution. If you spare them the problem will come back. Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent. If we win we should solve the problem.

              The best way to do it is to make centre-right cuck types carry it out… you don’t make Moldbug a death camp commandant or a right wing death squad group commander you force Ben Shapiro and all sorts of people who tweeted #Nevertrump to do it. In that way you bind the cuckish elements of the right to your regime.

              • alf says:

                History is full of kings, emperors and dictators who rule long with killing only those they had no choice but to kill. If you refuse to kill the few that you should be killing, yes, you likely end up murdered. But there’s plenty wise rulers out there who do just fine by killing the worst excesses and no more.

                Also, you might want to come up with a better name for your plan than Ze Final Solution 😂

                • The Cominator says:

                  “Progressivism is attempting to converge Islam as it converged Christianity.”

                  Dear god… Is their some way it can just sort of make Islam some fake and gay imitation while not becoming progressive really either…

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  Alf, once the Final Solution becomes feasible, the only people complaining about it being called the Final Solution are the people who need to get Solved. You can call it the Suharto Method, Night and Fog, the Inquisition, the Purge, whatever you want because at that point it is a coup complete problem. Everyone on your side will fall in line and get to stuffing the gender/race studies types in the traincars bound for death camps without a second thought, because its the right thing to do, and they won’t worry about what its called.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Shadowedknight and Alf.

                  I wouldn’t call it by that name lol.

                  And of course only a pure psychopath (yeah yeah its an anticoncept but I don’t entirely agree) could really find the process enjoyable (I mean after a while even if a man would enjoy say helicoptering part of the CNN staff) but as I’ve said we should not make politically reliable people carry it out.

                  We make the Ben Shapiro’s and the people who tweeted Nevertrump carry it out… people who think they are sort of intellectually anti-progressive and anti-communist but who aren’t reliable and theoretically believe in Democracy and all that crap. In this way they atone for their failures in enabling the left and the knowledge that another regime will never forgive them will bind them to us.

                  Now Alf and some others are horrified by the kind of numbers this would entail… So here is what I propose.
                  Perhaps people should be given a chance at some kind of intense reactionary re-education (with tests as to their sincerity) but for those who fail… since women are prone to stockholm syndrome this should be particularly effective with women which will solve the problem of too many prog women vs men upsetting the ratio… In no case would they ever be allowed to have a priestly type job ever again.

                  Night and fog should be a special category after the initial purges (which should at some point after they are done be if not announced allowed to slip into public knowledge)… night and fog should be how we deal with people who seek to politicize envious or egalitarian impulses down the road they should be arrested and that should be known but no information should be given out as to their whereabouts or their fate. Some of these may be released after a re-education course… but part of their treatment should be conditioning that they never wish to speak of what such things entail. There should be an air of mystery and horror about what happens to people who become progs feminists and communists. That most of them disappear and are never heard from again, and that some come back but they are never quite the same…

                  By such means leftism and social entropy could be held back probably not forever but probably 500 good years or so and hopefully we can get to space by then and frontierism should make consistent leftism impossible.

                  But if we don’t employ such methods history shows leftism comes back in at most two generations.

                • alf says:

                  I’m not horrified. While I might not always agree with you, you have interesting takes and this is one of them.

                  The way I see it, is I have socialist friends. Not many, but I have them. And yes, in some aspects they’re pieces if shit, but in others, I like them. One friend, after I publicly humiliated him using arguments borrowed from this sphere, later confessed to me that he was scared that I viewed him as the source of all evil. To which I responded: maybe? But not really.

                  Com, pretty sure you would view this friend as the source of all evil. But I have no inclination to kill him. When people like him are in charge, yes, they fuck things up, but when they are where they should be, they tend to know their place.

                  You kill people who give you ample reason to kill them, who refuse to learn their place. That is, in my eyes, the best way to do it.

                • The Cominator says:

                  I have a very few left wingers I still like personally I grew up in Cathedral central after all…

                  But nearly all became increasingly insufferable and NPCish after 2016 and I don’t see how you keep the problem from returning in 2016 if you are too sentimental about this…

                • The Cominator says:

                  I mean I don’t see how you keep the problem from returning down the road if you are sentimental about this…

                • jim says:

                  You can kill people, but you cannot kill ideas.

                  Getting rid of bad ideas requires a more subtle approach.

                • alf says:

                  It’s a practical issue, not a sentimental one.

                  Yarvin argues that come the restoration, no people need helicopter rides. I think a few people need helicopter rides. You think a great deal of people need helicopter rides.

                  I think Yarvin is too sentimental, and you are being too autistic. If Indonesia had turned into some kind of reactionary paradise, I might have been inclined towards your argument, but so far I think a program that seeks to murder, let’s put a number on it, (suharto killings / indonesian 1960 population x american 2020 population equals) 2.4 million americans, well it seems a bit much.

                  My basic point is: you don’t kill people for violating laws that did not exist at the time of them violating it. That way, you keep it fair, everyone gets a fair chance, and when somebody does repeatedly violate the law and gets a helicopter ride, everyone can go: well, that’s fair. It grants legitimacy.

                  When I look at Nicolas II and Louis XVI, their problem was not that they didn’t executed thousands of people, their problem was that they did not execute any people. Instead they placated their enemies. That, I think, is the crucial mistake.

                • pdimov says:

                  The interesting thing is that Suharto didn’t kill all leftists.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “The interesting thing is that Suharto didn’t kill all leftists.”

                  He came pretty damn close, with some of the Chinese (though not too many) minority who were just mistaken or assumed leftists for good measure.

                  Anyone known to be a politically active member of leftist parties was killed.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366

                • pdimov says:

                  The communist party had 2M confirmed members, and even the highest estimates of the murdered (which are probably lies) only go to “over a million”.

                  The other interesting thing about your poster example is that when one has a communist party, one already has a kill list. But you don’t. You have zero idea who you will kill. And when you don’t have a fixed and predetermined kill list, the end result is never pretty.

                • BC says:

                  The other interesting thing about your poster example is that when one has a communist party, one already has a kill list. But you don’t. You have zero idea who you will kill. And when you don’t have a fixed and predetermined kill list, the end result is never pretty.

                  Cominator is suggesting the full on Sulla solution and my reading of Rome history indicates that didn’t work. The state remained unstable and out of control despite purging the leftists. The best way to eliminate leftism and create a stable state is with a good anti leftist religion.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Re the list.

                  When in power categories should be drawn up. Politically active Democrats, women and ethnic studies professors, most people in priestly jobs who are leftists in any way…

                  We make a new religion once we leave the old one a smoking crater.

                • jim says:

                  Sulla left a smoking crater, and the crater was a problem until Augustus Caesar.

                  Charles the Second, on the other hand, gave us science, technology, industrialization, and empire.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Sulla left a partial crater he killed the populares extremist (but even then only some of them) but not the most corrupt optimates (who murdered Julius Caesar, which is one of histories great tragedies IMHO).

                  Augustus and the Second Triumvirate had to make a whole new crater for them. Octavian could not make a new religion where he was Augustus until he did that.

                • jim says:

                  Sulla left a big smoking crater, and you are arguing the crater was not big enough, should have made a bigger one.

                  But the crater continued to smoke for sixty years. It took Augustus Caesar ten years to get the Roman government barely working. Killing large numbers of leftists failed to do the trick, while Charles the Second did do the trick while only killing a handful of leftists.

                  Yes, leftism came back eventually to England, but the restoration was followed by one hundred and eighty years of good government and a healthy social order, while chaos continued from Sulla to a decade into the rule of Augustus Caesar.

                  The reason the restoration went off the rails is that they found themselves with Kings who failed to subscribe to the official religion, and under those Kings, entryists entered. The English were worried about Roman Catholic entryists, worried too much about Roman Catholic entryists, and failed to worry enough about entryists whose faith was derived from Puritanism, and from the radical Puritanism that Cromwell had successfully suppressed with very little killing.

                  Suharto left a big smoking crater, but the crater very quickly stopped smoking because he had a live state religion ready to roll. But, despite that big crater, his state religion is today succumbing to Cathedral entryism, via Soros ngos. It is in healthier condition than Iran’s state religion, perhaps due to the lingering impact of Suharto’s big smoking crater, but both of them are in a bad way.

                  You don’t kill ideas by killing the people that carry them. You kill ideas by making them low status and by permanently continuing to keep them low status. Trouble is that Soros ngos are high status.

                  The vector of Harvard entryism is ngos and professorships. You have to make the universities explicitly adhere to the state religion, make sure every professor professes the state religion – which is what the Cathedral is doing. And you have to prevent entryists from holiness spiraling the official state religion into their heresy. Killing people is orthogonal to this problem. Kill, or don’t kill, does not make a big difference.

              • jim says:

                > Leftism has returned in Chile it did not return in Indonesia (Indonesia’s muslim problem is a seperate issue)

                Progressivism is attempting to converge Islam as it converged Christianity. It is having considerable success. This is a workaround to the fact that Suharto reinstalled the previous state religion.

                Cultural Marxism is Marxism converged to the progressivism, and moderate Islam is Islam converged to progressivism. Progressive Jews don’t reproduce, and moderate Muslims do not reproduce. Thus progressives are fine with Iran, but attempted to exterminate the ruling Alawite minority in Syria.

                Alawites make no attempt to convert or converge the majority to their religion, but are stubbornly resistant to any outside effort at convergence. Hence the attempted genocide.

                • Allah says:

                  How does Africa fit into this? They’ve got by far the highest birthrates yet they’re relatively undisturbed, is it because progs don’t see them as a threat?

                  Alawite birthrate is apparently slightly above 2, lower than that of Indonesia but higher than Iran. Alawites are as you say a secretive and conspiratorial people, but they advertise themselves as enlightened modern free people as opposed to the bigoted and backwards Sunnis, they are quite proud of “nightlife” in Damascus. Iran was supposed to go down as the last target after Syria. I like your teachings on most topics, but geopolitics is not one of your strengths.

                • jim says:

                  Attempted genocide in Rwanda, successful genocide in the Congo. I would count that as mighty substantial disturbance.

                  Muslim dominated countries in black Africa are being quietly converged, Christian dominated countries get converged with straight up massive violence.

                  However, though the capital gets converged, low state capacity in black African countries means that convergence in the capital does not filter through to the boondocks very fast.

                  Plus blacks are better adapted than whites or east Asians to reproduce without marriage.

                • jim says:

                  Alawites are not particularly heretical on marriage and the family, but what really ticked off the Cathedral was Syria’s policy on higher education, which was for precisely and exactly numerically equal representation in higher education of women, which is quite progressive, but not progressive enough. The Cathedral wanted massive and overwhelming female dominance in higher education, as in Iran, Indonesia, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia, since their strategy is always for convergence mediated through the universities.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  High female rates of higher education is from having a half-Islamic half-modern country, e.g., permitting female schooling. The Islam narrows womens’ options and incentivizes them to use the modernity to compensate by getting as much schooling as possible. Men can live fine and well without putting much effort into formal education (Islam works!) so in the aggregate they don’t.

                • jim says:

                  Nothing wrong with female schooling provided it is not unisex. They should be taught the female role in girl’s schools by women who have successfully performed the female role – given birth to their husband’s children.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “Nothing wrong with female schooling provided it is not unisex.”

                  I think you probably meant not co-ed.

                  I think its a good idea to have two generations of severe discouragement of women having any pretense of being educated.

                  We need to reset the female herd mind to thinking of men as far smarter than they are and as such deliberately encouraging female ignorance Boko Haram style until feminist ideas fade almost from living memory is probably necessary.

                • Atavistic Morality says:

                  Feminism has nothing to do with education and everything to do with progressive regime in power. Whether they read literature or not makes no difference.

                  The example that Jim often uses of Australia turning literal whores into housewives comes to mind here.

    • jim says:

      He could recruit us or people like us – but the reaction to such recruitment would be apocalyptic.

      What he needs to do, in order to deal with his enemies in the “scientific branch” of the state religion, is undo the peer review program. He was talking about having a red team/blue team examination of global warming – where you let both sides systematically present their evidence in official channels, instead of peer review behind closed doors deciding that only one side is acceptable on the basis of secret evidence that is never made public, and only counting one side’s evidence as legitimate, but he backed off from that then.

      The medical establishment is the core of that program. That he backed off from that then indicates it is coup complete problem, requiring at least the threat of Cominator style measures.

      Charles the second is the epitome of a mild mannered restoration, but he burned one heretic at the stake, which is what made it possible to fire all the other heretics. He also made compromises with Puritanism, which in the long term turned out to be disastrous, but which did not lead to problems for centuries.

      • Allah says:

        the reaction to such recruitment would be apocalyptic.

        From the looks of it they’ve been throwing everything they have at Trump and it all blew up in their faces, I would say if they had anything else against Trump, they would’ve tried it already. What can they do that would be apocalyptic?

        • jim says:

          Arrest everyone around Trump, whereupon impeachment would go through smoothly.

          The generals appear to be OK with that, but the praetorians are not OK, hence the coup would likely go bloody, and might well fail, resulting in a successful Trump counter coup.

          During the house impeachment hearings, they were fishing for support for a coup among the generals, and the generals were fine with it, and then suddenly changed their minds. I conjecture that what happened is that the praetorians told them “that would undermine the discipline and unity of the armed forces”, which is military euphemism for high ranking officers getting shot.

          • The Cominator says:

            Trump is apparently using the media’s brief respite from constant orange man bad (in order to destroy him indirectly by prolonging the panic) to purge the spooks and the “impartial” inspector generals and probably others…

            So we shall see. He certainly should use the distraction to purge people (but not the medical “experts” the media is focused on, I don’t think Birx is all that bad but Fauci definitely needs to be in front a firing squad) but that does not mean he can keep this going much longer and survive because he can’t.

          • yewotm8 says:

            I thought I’d been paying attention, but maybe not. Who are Trump’s praetorians?

            • jim says:

              Every state has praetorians, and they are seldom reliably the sovereign’s praetorians.

              A praetorian is a state employee with a gun and authority to use force who is located on the interesting side of the Rubicon. They are not Trump’s praetorians. Or are they?

              I hope to see that question answered soon.

      • Harold Green says:

        “He also made compromises with Puritanism, which in the long term turned out to be disastrous, but which did not lead to problems for centuries.”

        Speaking of this, did you ever get a chance to read JCD Clark’s ‘English Society 1660-1832’? He makes some very Jim-esque points on the role of religion in British politics during this period.

        • jim says:

          Yes, read JCD Clark’s “English Society 1660-1832”.

          It was a struggle for control of the official state religion, which slowly returned to the officially unofficial condition that it had suffered as a result of the civil war, and continues to suffer to the present day. Holiness spiral ensues.

          When we are in charge, the high status universities, those of them that are not shut down and redeveloped into housing, offices, and shopping centers, will once again be officially and actually Christian, and will worship Gnon and Christ as the Logos, and we will have the adequate checks for orthodoxy that the state religion of England slowly abandoned. The sovereign should get to decide what superior holiness is.

        • Mr.P says:

          Great book.

          Got it from inter-loan library and read it based on a recommendation in a previous thread.

          I didn’t see much holiness spiraling in the book *per se*, guessed the worst of it occurred before where the book picks up the story (could be, probably am, wrong, though).

          What the book depicts and details is relentless, unrelenting, merciless Whigism.

          A painful instructive read, to be sure.

  8. Yisrael ben Goyim says:

    You goys still don’t have a clue.

    Climb up out of you grandmother’s basement, get on your bicycle, ride over to your local hospital and see with your own eyes that it is a ghost town. No patients, no cars, nothing.

    • jim says:

      The ghost town phenomenon is consistent with postponement of elective surgery, and that people are afraid to go to medical facilities because of the likelihood of infection. Because the epidemic is increasing by a factor of ten every ten days, hospitals can go from empty to overflowing very fast.

      Everyone I know is avoiding hospitals and doctor’s offices like the plague, or rather, because of the plague.

      Wu Flu is still small, ten thousand deaths per day in the US. But people are rationally concerned that the peak will be large, partly because the establishment is pushing hyped projections, but partly because it could be large. A thousand deaths per day is not all that small. If growth were to continue for another ten days, it would be a hundred thousand deaths per day.

      “[British Prime Minister Boris Johnson] was sitting in the same green leather chair (in the Chancellor’s study, which he had requisitioned while in isolation), but by now the jacket and tie had gone and his shirt was unbuttoned. His skin appeared blotchy and his voice, now croaky, gave way altogether at one point part-way through the 1 minute, 46 seconds of video.”

      He really is ill, and my guess is that high priest doctors around him were far too holy to give him hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, and zinc.

      • The Cominator says:

        Not 10k deaths per day 10k deaths total.

        • Steve Johnson says:

          No, 10k deaths per day – easily. There have been 10k deaths so far.

          The one thousandth death was 27 March; the two thousandth on the 29th and the three thousandth on the 30th. It took until March for there to be a thousand deaths and there were a thousand dying per day three days later.

          In the week since almost eight thousand more people have died.

          https://blog.jim.com/uncategorized/the-cathedral-and-the-holiness-spiral/#comment-2460432

        • The Cominator says:

          10k in the US so far TOTAL.

          There will not be 10k a day in the US ever. Most of the deaths have probably already occurred.

          • Fred says:

            Not to mention that most of the deaths aren’t excess deaths. The real lesson here is that there doesn’t seem to be any standard framework for determining who dies from a disease vs. who dies with a disease (and died from something else), so everyone who dies with coronavirus is being recorded as a coronavirus fatality, leading to credulous incompetents taking the fatality figures seriously.

            • Steve Johnson says:

              That’s because it’s a question that doesn’t have an actual answer; this guy died because he wasn’t in good enough shape to survive the wu flu – did he die *of* the wu flu or just with the wu flu? is unanswerable or arbitrary based on some line you draw based on how personalized you want to make his life expectancy. Does it have to cut off 10 years of expected life? 1 year? 6 months? 30 years? Maybe he would have died of the flu just the same.

              “The lines are fuzzy, therefore the category is meaningless” is enemy argumentation for when they want to ignore something.

      • pdimov says:

        They’ll give him remdesivir instead.

      • Glow Boomer says:

        [deleted]

    • jim says:

      Here is a video of a New York hospital this morning.

      It is overflowing alarmingly

      https://youtu.be/OGnxNsKtkjI?t=144

      • Javier says:

        Michael Burry (MD/investor who predicted 2008 crash) says it’s overblown:

        https://twitter.com/michaeljburry

        New York is a dirty city with overcrowding, they’re always going to be hit hard by stuff like this. No reason to lock down the rest of the country.

        • Not Tom says:

          New York is a dirty city with overcrowding

          But San Francisco is not?

          Madness.

          Making one correct investment decision in 2008 does not make one an expert on infectious diseases. Seeing far too many “experts” whose only credential is having made money in 2008. A lot of people made money in 2008.

          I do agree that rural areas don’t need strict quarantines. Regular distancing is fine. But pretty much every large city will need to be.

          • The Cominator says:

            The so called experts don’t know anything. The skeptics (like me) who thought they were full of shit have been right about almost everything.

            Social distancing is economic poison and needs to come to a quick end, even if this were so deadly under normal circumstances we have the Zelenko protocol. Trump needs to make full use of his emergency powers to crackdown on Cloroquine deniers and end this bullshit.

            • Not Tom says:

              Dude, you’ve been right on almost nothing with regard to this. You were wrong about case rates, wrong about mortality rates, wrong about the pattern of infection in Europe and the USA, wrong about the magnitude and possibly the existence of major racial disparities, and are only even half-right with your death count prediction because of nearly ubiquitous social distancing (compare California to New York).

              Ok, you were [probably/mostly] right about Chloroquine, which nobody here actually disputed you on. Want a fucking medal for that?

              The “Zelenko protocol” is great but doesn’t completely replace social distancing. There are guys out there, like Sailer, who are promoting gradual resumption of economic activity with social distancing and other precautions (i.e. masks) incorporated where possible. That’s logical and smart and cool-headed. Your narrative of “die for my 401k, plebs” is not.

              New and important information is largely coming from actual experts, especially those directly practicing: the role of Zinc in combination with HCQ; the possibility that it is hypoxia and not pneumonia; the damage being done by ventilators; possible other anti-parasitics that work. These are all coming from physicians and sometimes research scientists. Not bureaucrats at the CDC and WHO, obviously, but actual practicing doctors working in ERs and ICUs.

              Your problem is that you don’t recognize actual expertise and think you’re smarter than everyone else out there, which leads you to insane conclusions. There’s a fine line between ignoring the morons that the Cathedral presents to us as experts, and ignoring the people who genuinely know what they’re talking about.

              • Pooch says:

                He is right in the sense that we should open the economy back up immediately. It’s not as deadly as initially feared and we have a treatment now. We’ve enough to mitigate. It’s obvious the cathedral is milking the gloom and doom to every last drop To further socialism.

            • The Cominator says:

              LOL

              “Dude, you’ve been right on almost nothing with regard to this. You were wrong about case rates, wrong about mortality rates, wrong about the pattern of infection in Europe and the USA”

              We actually don’t know either the real case rates or the mortality rates, South Korea the place which has the best data suggests that is more deadly if you get it than the seasonal flu (and are not given the Zelenko protocol quickly) but far less contangious. Germany which also has fairly good date suggests much the same. It CANNOT be both more contangious and more deadly than the seasonal flu no matter what the alarmist “experts” claim or you’d see higher case numbers.

              So where have I been wrong. The deaths #s (padded as they are) are on track to be less than the seasonal flu.

              “wrong about the magnitude and possibly the existence of major racial disparities”

              LOL I can’t recall that I mentioned muh racial disparities. Perhaps back in December when almost nothing was known there was a rumor that niggers couldn’t get it but I don’t recall saying anything along those lines.

              “New and important information is largely coming from actual experts, especially those directly practicing: the role of Zinc in combination with HCQ; the possibility that it is hypoxia and not pneumonia; the damage being done by ventilators; possible other anti-parasitics that work. These are all coming from physicians and sometimes research scientists. Not bureaucrats at the CDC and WHO, obviously, but actual practicing doctors working in ERs and ICUs.”

              Thats nice but the important info about Cloroquine is known, Trump should assert his full emergency power and silence the critics of cloroquine, ordering that anyone who disputes the effectiveness of the Zelenko protocol is to be arrested immediately for the duration of the emergency and that any court orders contrary to this will be ignored. He needs to give a speech of course to accompany the issuance of this order that of course this violates civil liberties but so does confining people in their homes and that he cannot condone liars who perpetuate this intolerable situation and that he will hear nothing about their civil liberties when the whole country is under house arrest. This also sets a very good precedent…

              “Your problem is that you don’t recognize actual expertise and think you’re smarter than everyone else out there, which leads you to insane conclusions. There’s a fine line between ignoring the morons that the Cathedral presents to us as experts, and ignoring the people who genuinely know what they’re talking about.”

              I’m not smarter than everyone else but the public health experts ARE all morons who know nothing and have been wrong about everything. Under Old Testament Law these experts and modelers would be stoned to death as false prophets as well they should be.

              • R7 Rocket says:

                All the rates and numbers are fake, because of asymptomatic carriers, because deaths from other causes are being counted as COVID19 deaths if there is infection.

                And these quacks are now disrupting our access to food.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Well luckily I think its coming to an end…

                  Trump’s “reopening” council is to be formed Monday.

  9. BC says:

    So on a deeper level than the questions of the day, how does the new world order shake out after this gone? The US has shown tremendous disunity, mass stupidity from our leadership, and considerable weakness.

    I’d been hoping Trump would have enough time to right the the ship before a crisis hit but you can only hide weakness and rot for so long before it’s exposed. How does the new world order shake out?

    • jim says:

      The New World Order was always the state religion of Harvard imposed at swordpoint, and has been falling apart due Trump’s lack of interest in applying the sword. As he regularly complains, the American Empire has been profoundly unprofitable for America.

      Competence or the lack thereof is irrelevant until the US is tested in a great power war, which Trump is disinclined to engage in.

      • BC says:

        The phrase “New World Order” hasn’t been used in connection with the Cathedral for at least 15 years if not longer. I did not use the phrase in that sense rather I intended in the sense of how people will pick between strong and weak horses in imperial alignment. US empire might start falling (more) apart with China picking up the pieces.

  10. Mister Grumpus says:

    Guys I need some perspective please.

    So here we have the Zelenko Protocol of how $20 worth of HCQ+AZT+Zn can save old and compromised people from Covid-19, at home, without touching a hospital.

    Trump knows it. Dr Oz knows it. Tucker knows it. We know it.

    Yet meanwhile, day after grinding day, we have a medical and status establishment that is doing everything it can to keep it from being used, and instead doom us all to a smoking hole, for holiness reasons. This really is some Khmer Rouge / Cultural Revolution type stuff.

    So let’s armchair quarterback this a bit.

    How in the world can “the good guys” get this treatment out there, so that the country (and other countries) don’t get destroyed by this?

    “It’s as simple as blah-blah-blah”, but apparently it isn’t, because it’s not happening yet, even though people are going broke and hungry in their basements all over the damn world, so you’d think there’d be more than enough motivation to

    “Well, we’ve tried the expensive stuff that doesn’t work, so let’s try the affordable stuff that does work as a last resort.”

    So this is obviously really really complicated and hard. The civilization must be undermined and subverted to save it from itself. A whole lot of very important people have to be humiliated and impoverished before an affordable end to the Covid-19 crisis will be ALLOWED.

    Picture yourself as Trump himself, or a Fox News exec, or a governor, or a doctor, or just a regular Joe Blow. At any of these stations of society, what on earth can be done to connect the dots here?

    • Mister Grumpus says:

      HCQ + AZT + ZN

      CureGate

    • jim says:

      Ventilators are killing people.

      https://blog.jim.com/images/ventilators_are_killing_wu_flu_patients.mp4

      This disease is spread in substantial part by medical facilities, and it is the medical facilities that are killing off people.

      The problem is that doctors, nurses, and patients, like to have authority over them, and authority has failed.

      Trump should disregard limits on his power, and just plain order doctors and hospitals to use HCQ+AZT+ZN, and if a patient has breathing difficulties, use an oxygen mask rather than a ventilator, unless he shows signs of classic pneumonia and muscular breathing problems, which very few Wu Flu patients show.

      There will be outrage, because he will be exercising a priestly function in defiance of the official priesthood, but he will be obeyed, because everyone is hungering and thirsting for someone to be obeyed.

      • Mister Grumpus says:

        “…but he will be obeyed, because everyone is hungering and thirsting for someone to be obeyed.”

        OK that’s sharp. You’re pointing at the emotional and instinctual “fuel” that’s actually available, right now, to make something happen. Not just “I’m broke and don’t want to die”, but rather, even more deeply, “Daddy what should I do?”

        And surely that goes for many lower- and middle-levels in the medical establishment also. The ones too low-status to be too invested in the status quo, and also too in-touch with the actual patients to not care if they die for holiness reasons. I bet a good many of them are ready to obey as well, especially since they’ll know that the order will work.

      • Mister Grumpus says:

        And surely Don Junior, or Jared, or whoever, could free up some personal cash and mix/package up some HCQ+AZT+ZN pills, in red white and blue bottles with little orange wigs on the lids, and just deliver them to pharmacies in NYC for free. In HD on YouTube+Facebook livestream.

        Or fuck it, just set up a fast testing and drug distribution center right in Trump Tower, next to the ice cream stand by The Escalator. On livestream. Good cameras, lighting, tailored wardrobe, etc. Can you imagine the optics?

        No license. No permission. No nothing. “FUCK YOU. I’m saving lives here. Arrest me. I dare you.”

        Talk about benevolent aristocracy.

      • Mike in Boston says:

        One claim that is very interesting, if true, is that negative-pressure respirators– the old 1950s “iron lung”– may actually provide better outcomes than positive-pressure ventilation for patients with acute respiratory distress.

        After that era, they became less popular, according to the author of that thread, due to space requirements and obstruction of access to the patient. These are, as he points out, logistical and financial considerations, not medical ones. More societal technological decline?

      • Mister Grumpus says:

        Give me your over-under odds that Boris Johnson going into that London hospital for Covid is an “act” (whether he actually has Covid or not), and that he’ll get HCQ+AZT+ZN in there, get better, come out, and tell everyone all about it.

        Trump, or one of his sons, may have to do the same.

        • jim says:

          He has WuFlu, he says he has mild symptoms and they are not going away. Why an act?

          I wish it was, but I would not get my hopes up.

          • Dude says:

            UK is so pozzed that I almost wonder if the doctors at the high-status hospital Johnson is going to won’t offer him an effective treatment, because

            1) “quality” in the status conscious UK is tied to holiness
            2) using effective treatments in this case would raise the status of unapproved treatments, lowering the status of elite doctors
            3) a big name death reinforces the position of elite doctors at a time when the worst projections are looking woefully short and Sweden continues to do business as usual.

            Not saying it’s murder, they’re just using the “best,” peer reviewed treatments, of course.

            But I certainly wouldn’t want to be underwriting the life insurance policies of anyone being treated for coronavirus by the UK’s NHS right now.

            • ten says:

              Not doing business as usual in sweden. Everyone i know working in retail and restaurants lost work and got warned they might get fired or already got fired. Most street business sectors report 50-90% less business.

              Just maximizing disease spread by keeping the gyms open while maximizing economic damage. The most cathedralite media insects are in support, indicating it is a ploy to steer public opinion and debate away from chaos marauder invasion towards socialism.

            • Mister Grumpus says:

              “3) a big name death reinforces the position of elite doctors at a time when the worst projections are looking woefully short and Sweden continues to do business as usual.”

              How so?

          • Mister Grumpus says:

            OK OK Boris really is sick.

            What I should have said is that surely Boris is no dope, so he’s well aware of the HCQ+AZT+ZN treatment.

            I’m also willing to bet that the NHS won’t just up and give it to him.

            So I’m just hoping and hoping to God over here that Boris has some side-people he can trust, who will get him the HCQ+AZT+ZN, and get it into him somehow. And if they can, then he can get better, come out, wave to everyone, grab the microphone, and tell them how he got better. Maybe he’d bullshit a little and say the NHS offered it to him and he accepted.

            It would be a perfect stunt to get the truth out.

            This is all so terrifying and absurd.

            • jim says:

              > OK OK Boris really is sick.
              >
              > What I should have said is that surely Boris is no dope, so he’s well aware of the HCQ+AZT+ZN treatment.

              Crimestop.

              Artificial protective stupidity.

              • pdimov says:

                HCQ+AZT(+Zn) is really not the miracle cure it’s made out to be. It’s not even clear whether it will save more than it will kill (both HCQ and AZT cause arrhythmia.)

                • The Cominator says:

                  This is commie shill talk.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Its a miracle cure as long as you don’t get it too late if you are already near death than it may not save you. Anyone who says otherwise is a Cathedral shill.

                  None of Zelenko’s old Hasidic jew patients died.

                • jim says:

                  Nuts

                  Zelenko’s results show that it is a miracle cure – being overwhelmed, he only treated high risk patients. Heart arrhythmia is a seldom fatal, and even if you already have quite serious heart arrhythmia, and you take azithromycin on top of that, you are unlikely to notice any difference.

                • The Cominator says:

                  https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a682318.html

                  “headache
                  loss of appetite
                  diarrhea
                  upset stomach
                  stomach pain
                  skin rash or itching
                  hair loss
                  mood or mental changes”

                  I’ve read NOTHING that says short term use causes arrhythmia. The evidence is overwhelming that its a cure if given early though not necessarily when you get to death’s door.

                  Pdimov I know you and I don’t think you are a shill but please tell us where these commie cathedral lies are coming from.

                • pdimov says:

                  https://www.dicardiology.com/article/covid-19-hydroxychloroquine-treatment-brings-prolonged-qt-arrhythmia-issues

                  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4040726/

                  https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardiology/articles/2020/03/27/14/00/ventricular-arrhythmia-risk-due-to-hydroxychloroquine-azithromycin-treatment-for-covid-19

                  I want there to be a miracle cure as much as the next man (probably more), but I don’t think Zelenko has proven anything. I also don’t understand the love for HCQ when according to Chinese reports CQ phosphate is much better.

                  Miracle cures, when they work, work everywhere; there would have been mass reports from hospitals by now of HCQ+AZT working, and there just aren’t. Italy, for instance, doesn’t report it being a miracle cure. They seem to be sticking to Tocilizumab (I admit I can’t spell that without copy/pasting it.)

                • jim says:

                  > https://www.dicardiology.com/article/covid-19-hydroxychloroquine-treatment-brings-prolonged-qt-arrhythmia-issues

                  If you use it in high doses continually for ten years or so, it can, and likely will cause all sorts of problems. Mentioning all those side effects without mentioning that they have only been observed in people using it continually for many years is a lie.

                  You are getting your information from people who hate you and want you and your children to die.

                  > according to Chinese reports CQ phosphate is much better.

                  Chloroquine is almost the same drug as hydroxychloroquine. If one works, the other probably works. One might work better than the other, but the evidence is more impressive for hydroxychloroquine.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Zelenko absolutely proved it worked.

                  Your sources are cathedral lies. Cloroquine has been used since the late 40s and while its not a pleasant drug it now suddenly causes heart problems. Italy wasn’t using Cloroquine until late and neither was Spain hence their high death rate and what Italy is sticking to is not a model for anything, and from what I’ve heard they HAVE switched to cloroquine. South Korea and Germany otoh used it early. If China says something is better well I haven’t read that maybe it is and maybe it isn’t but that is no proof Cloroquine doesn’t work.

                  So we DO have worldwide confirmation it works as places that have used cloroquine have had a far lower death rate than places that have not.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Zelenko showed that

                  1. early or prophylactic use, the earlier the better and preferably as outpatient treatment, solves most of the problem

                  and guessed based on Korean reports that

                  2. adding zinc helps destroy the virus

                  The first has been confirmed overwhelmingly worldwide: HCQ (with or without AZT) works and it works much better best if given before serious symptoms, and continued afterward if they occur.

                  There are confirmations on the zinc but not as overwhelming as most places aren’t using it. Brazil, encouraged by Bolsonaro via Trump, is doing more or less the Zelenko approach and a doctor in LA (Cardillo) is reporting a replication.

                • pdimov says:

                  >Mentioning all those side effects without mentioning that they have only been observed in people using it continually for many years is a lie.

                  “While we’re on the subject of QT prolongation, there’s this preprint from a medical team at NYU that was also treating patients with the same combination of drugs. In 84 patients, they found notable QT prolongation in about 30% of them, and another 11% were to a level (>500 milliseconds) that put them at a high risk for arrhythmia.”

                  https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/04/06/hydroxychloroquine-update-for-april-6

                  A good summary of the HCQ denial case.

                • The Cominator says:

                  They don’t have a case and Trump needs to give the order to start arresting these cloroquine deniers.

                  The science is settled!

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  Who here thinks he knows something about the pro’s and con’s of HCQ vs CQ in the Covid19 context?

              • Mister Grumpus says:

                “Crimestop.
                Artificial protective stupidity.“

                I don’t follow. Please do me a favor and elaborate a little.

                Is it me who’s CrimeStopping, or are you afraid that Boris might be CrimeStopping himself from getting the HCQ+AZT+ZN treatment to stay out of even worse trouble in his vulnerable state? Or something else?

                • jim says:

                  Boris and his doctors are likely afflicted with crimestop.

                • Oliver Cromwell says:

                  Cummings will know HCQ and Cummings has the virus so he cares. This may save Boris.

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  I’m sorry to hear you think that. I was and still am optimistic that since he’s pulled off such a wild political coup with getting Brexit to actually happen IRL, Boris can see and operate the levers under the curtain better than most.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  2020, posh London hospital.

                  “Mr Johnson sir, telephone call from Mr Trump Junior in New York”

                  (pained groan)

                  J: (whispering ghastly) hell-oh, Dohnnn
                  Tjr: hey Boris. Dad says your doctors are “in Labour”, if you know what I mean. But here in New York we have this antimalaria stuff with zinc, clears up the lungs in a few hours. Works great, that bastard Chris Cuomo is secretly taking it. Our people tried to TEMPEST his house but can’t get the proof.
                  J: (groans)
                  Tjr: Dad also says that if you take the cocktail, are suddenly cured and explain that on television right afterward, we can sign that trade deal next week without further negotiation. Shall I have Rudy bring over some pills?
                  J: fwbwaaarghmummpfff

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  Omar, that is exactly the kind of crafty shit that I’m talking about. Right on the money. Really.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  The Boris matter really should be Trump’s top priority. Breaking the grip of media, is great, it has been in process from the first days of the Internet, was accelerated by social media and cellphones, and Trump is the man of history well poised to finish the job. But it is much easier than doing the same for doctors.

                  Pozzed medicine has been impregnable, going from strength to suffocating strength, with full capture of all institutions. Casting the medical whore-priests out of the temple has been unthinkable. Suddenly the once in a lifetime crisis-opportunity (better even than Cuomo) has fallen into Trump’s lap. Boris taking the Trump cure and returning from the brink to save the rest of the world from CV19 and the medical establishment, would be the vampire slaying to end all vampire slayings. Is it even possible that Trump is not aware of this?

                • jim says:

                  Trump is aware of this, but it does not follow that he will accomplish it.

                  He has no replacement priesthood, and is trying to bend the priesthood to his will, rather than annihilate.

                  Naturally I would love to see him launch the cominator solution tomorrow morning, but Trump has a merchant nature, he always wants to make a deal, and he does not have the people he needs. He may be trying to get a priestly faction to yield, rather than blowing them up head on.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Trump has essentially no downside in trying to get Johnson on HCQ immediately, as long as he acts deniably through intermediaries etc.

                  If no HCQ, Trump has a big problem that Johnson, a key ally now on the ventilator, has a good chance of dying with no strong replacement who can help crush the EU. Trump has been alone among US leaders in recognizing and antagonizing the EU as an economic enemy on a par with China.

                  If HCQ with deniable Trump connection, Johnson either lives and by doing so severely weakens the vampire, or dies anyway. Results from HCQ trials all over the world would soon show more formally that Trump was right, and the problem was that Johnson got too little of it too late.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  For example, Trump Jr can directly or indirectly convey to one of the antiglobalists like Cummings, Farage or Sabisky that UK will get very favorable trade terms — in effect giving them a cut of the wealth transferred back from EU — if Johnson and all of the CV19-ed people at the top of his government try the Zelenko treatment immediately.

                • pdimov says:

                  >Trump has essentially no downside in trying to get Johnson on HCQ immediately

                  As you correctly observed in another comment, the right time to get Boris on HCQ immediately was a week ago. It’s a bit too late for that now.

                  Dare I suggest the possibility that he was, in fact, on HCQ? Commie shill talk, no doubt.

                • pdimov says:

                  https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-says-hes-enlisted-brilliant-companies-to-assist-boris-johnson-they-have-arrived-in-london-already

                  “”It’s a very complex treatment of things that they’ve just recently developed,” Trump said later, in response to a question from a reporter.”

                  Doesn’t read like HCQ to me.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Johnson does not have pneumonia and is expected to live.

                • pdimov says:

                  I hope so; I like him.

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  “ “”It’s a very complex treatment of things that they’ve just recently developed,” Trump said later, in response to a question from a reporter.”

                  Doesn’t read like HCQ to me.”

                  Contraire! That sounds exactly like HCQ to me, wrapped in camouflage to “get it through customs”, if you will. A Trojan Horse of memetic awesome.

                  They made it “complex” by adding in fish oil, Vitamin D, Vitamin C, Korean Ginseng and Peppermint Oreos.

      • Cloudswrest says:

        Comment from an acquaintance.

        ——————————————–

        It’s one thing to pressurize the lungs versus put the whole patient at -100’ mean sea level. It’s kind of like normalizing air pressure for scuba diving. To the diver it feels like they are at 1 atm when they are actually at 2,3, 4, etc. The illness (Per the video) gives them the lung capability of someone at 30,000+ feet. The need a hyperbaric chamber, not a ventilator.

        Another way to put it, is that a ventilator isn’t good enough because the required pressure for treatment is higher than the safe level for employment of a ventilator.

        • jim says:

          The blood oxygen level falls, they raise the pressure, the victim is old and frail, he suffers ventilator injury.

      • Cloudswrest says:

        The ER doctor has a follow up video where he explicitly states the patients need oxygen, NOT pressure.

        https://youtu.be/QWaq8HoEROU

    • Pooch says:

      https://www.foxnews.com/health/thousands-of-coronavirus-infected-new-yorkers-treated-with-anti-malarial-drug

      About time…doesn’t seem like Cuomo is fighting the treatment.

      Interestingly, death rate in NYC flattening out last 2 days.

      • jim says:

        He is slow walking the treatment.

      • Mister Grumpus says:

        No mention of the Zinc. Where’s the fucking Zinc. What is with you motherfucking people.

        You know, the cheapest element of the HCQ+AZT+ZN combo that makes it all actually work.

        That’s it. I’m going out of my mind over here.

        This really is Khmer Rouge murder-suicide by holiness. This really is it. We’re all looking directly at the monster, in action, in real time and broad daylight, sitting on the same park bench as us, looking us right in the eye while it eats our French fries.

        • pdimov says:

          It will certainly be a twist of fate if Zn turns out the be the only effective component of the “protocol”.

  11. Pooch says:

    There is nothing surprising about yet another flu, and nothing surprising about the Democrats milking the crisis. If that is the great conspiracy, it is not very great.

    I agree, but I don’t remember any antiviral drugs (Hydroxychloroquine) being such a big deal for ending the epidemic of previous flus.

  12. Mister Grumpus says:

    I found my old tinfoil today. Still fits. Just like the good ol’ days.

    Guys, give me a sound-off for all you who have particularly strong opinions/positions that the COVID-19 experience has been 99% either one or the other of:

    A) the floundering and CrimeStopping of an increasingly desperate, Trump-deranged and incompetent ruling class

    vs

    B) a “show”, planned, produced and put on by the Evil Cabal Behind the Curtain, to get “globalist” innovations and progress items X Y and Z through

    Or in other words, what do you say to Corona-Troofers?

    By far the most chilling intellectual innovation of this blog, for me, has been using the Elite CrimeStop model to supersede and obsolesce the Evil Cabal Behind the Curtain model.

    • jim says:

      The corona troofer position is incoherent. Is it Wu Flu a Chinese bioweapon, an American bioweapon, a totally faked disaster, or an overhyped disaster?

      Initially it was an underhyped disaster, and now it is an overhyped disaster, but this looks normal incompetence and incoherent Trump derangement syndrome, not a coherent and terribly competent conspiracy. The corona troofer conspiracy theory is even less coherent than the elite’s response to the Wu Flu virus.

      One point that the conspiracy theory makes a big deal out of is that the Wu Flu virus has bat flu genes with a few HIV-1 genes, and it attacks the human cells using the same mechanism as HIV-1 does, and other flues do not. This might indicate someone engineered it, but it more likely indicates one positive stranded RNA virus having the virus equivalent of sex with another positive stranded RNA virus, which is where new flues come from all the time. Is the theory that China plotted to attack China? If the US plotted to attack China, the plotters would have had a more competent and organized response to the virus inevitably and predictably coming to America.

      Wu Flu is not yet a bigger problem than all the other flues, but it is deadlier than they are, so likely to become a bigger problem than all the other flues. Some level of drama is appropriate.

      The Democratic reaction was “never let a crisis go to waste”. They are as usual milking the crisis all they can, and that is a conspiracy, and is done conspiratorially, but they do that with every crisis.

      There is nothing surprising about yet another flu, and nothing surprising about the Democrats milking the crisis. If that is the great conspiracy, it is not very great.

      • Strannik says:

        Speaking of COVID-19, here might be some extra good news as far as a drug to fight it; Ivermectin, already used as an anti-parasitic/anti-viral;

        https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011

        I think people are starting to actually do something about all this.

        • Not Tom says:

          Interesting: while cell cultures don’t tell us much about human outcomes, if it does turn out to be effective, that would turn out to be the second effective anti-parasitic drug.

          SARS2 isn’t a parasitic infection, like malaria, yet the anti-parasitics are the only drugs showing any promise.

          Pharmacologists really should be taking more interest in why some of these anti-parasitic drugs have any effect at all on viruses. There isn’t really any logical reason why they should, and I haven’t seen any good explanation of why they do. Not that we need to know why, in order to use them in this instance, but knowing why might actually help to design real anti-viral drugs that work, as opposed to the modern approach of spraying a thousand different chemicals on the problem until it goes away.

          • jim says:

            They are taking an interest, and they have come up with some rationales. I am unimpressed with those rationales.

            • The Cominator says:

              https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-422X-2-69

              It was known in 2005 to basically block SARs 1.0 by changing the PH level of the cell membrane and blocking certain receptors both which seems to keep the virus out.

              • jim says:

                It is not in fact clear that it changes the pH level, and they have rather too many explanations in addition to pH level.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Whatever the very specific mechanism of action it seems like it changes something in the cell membranes such that the virus cannot penetrate the cell membranes at all.

                  Maybe it raising PH has an effect and maybe it doesn’t (note to self if I get cancer try Cloroquine as well) and maybe its direct effect of shutting down certain membrane receptors (probably more likely) is the main reason… I don’t know but it seems the main thing is it keeps the virus from getting into the cells at all.

                • The Cominator says:

                  https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/clinical-trials/intervention/hydroxychloroquine

                  It appears someone else had my thought about cancer and hydroxycloroquine, ie that if it does lower cellular PH its probably effective against some types of cancer (Leukemia probably not).

          • pdimov says:

            >SARS2 isn’t a parasitic infection, like malaria, yet the anti-parasitics are the only drugs showing any promise.

            That’s certainly interesting.

            However, they are not the only drugs. Remdesivir very likely works better than either of these. But it’s not $20, so it gets no spotlight.

            • jim says:

              The supply of Remdesvir is limited – one manufacturer, Gilead, and they are out of supply after having treated a handful of cases. On the available evidence it works great, but it is far harder to make than hydroxychloroquine. Also, it requires intravenous administration, while the alternatives are pills – and pills that lots of people know how to make.

      • The Cominator says:

        Its not that the virus is fake, a Chinese bioweapon, or an American bioweapon. But what it IS is Mueller by other means.

        The Cathedral (in this case both the media and the CDC, with the CDC and FDA also sabotaging testing) preached the virus was completely nothing until the day the order came down to start massively overhyping it and then they did an immediate about face. Suddenly even the constant chorus of Orange Man Bad cease to be replaced by the constant chorus that we need to shut down everything forever.

        There can only be one explanation for this shift… that they want to destroy Trump via destroying his economy (something I actually thought the Cathedral bigwigs had ruled out doing within short living memory of 2008 because of the difference between progressives and more classic marxists and that a true depression so soon after 2008 would favor outright Marxists). Implementing progressivism during the crisis is a goal too but perhaps secondary.

        Even though the constant orange man bad has ceased, even though the virus allows Trump to finally cutoff the 3rd world flood in its entirety… a depression is a political disaster for Trump if he owns it… and when he backed off reopen by Easter he took at least partial ownership of the economic damage. The constant chorus of orange man bad will resume after this is over…

    • Cementmixer says:

      Here is a video which seems to be recording of a whistleblower talking about plans for a pandemic in china that is designed to spread like wildfire, followed by the same or a different pandemic spreading across the world.

      The kicker is that this video was uploaded in 2010.

      youtube com/watch?v=TmWM51mTY

      To me it seems possible and likely that this is a bioweapon and there is some kind of conspiracy, even if it has been botched. I wouldn’t know why, though I have a suspicion that there is a supranational cabal of people who use the Cathedral as a tool to bring order through chaos. Could this be their doing?

      • jim says:

        Listening to 2010 video and interpreting it as about current events is sign of schizophrenia.

      • Dave says:

        Then there’s “After Armageddon”, a History Channel drama about a virus from Southeast Asia sweeping the world and destroying civilization, first broadcast in December 2010. Its premise is, “If a new disease came along that was as deadly as SARS and as contagious as Swine Flu…”, and it includes stock footage from those outbreaks. Global pandemics always originate in China, so that part of the script pretty much writes itself.

        What I found implausible was that after 100 million Americans die of this superflu, there’s no one left who knows how to operate an oil refinery, nuclear power plant, or public water supply, and that instead of figuring it out, the survivors just start killing each other. We’re not all niggers, you know.

        • Pseudo-chrysostom says:

          >We’re not all niggers, you know.

          They think so though, they really think so.

          When a progoid has fever dreams of folk devolving to stone age barbarism in absence of, how to say, apostolic succession of the unholy synagogue, it stems from them imagining themselves as the template for all those involved.

          In an environment with only such people as occupants, devolutionary anarchy would in fact quite naturally be an expectable entailment.

  13. Not Tom says:

    Interesting aside: the CDC has now finally cottoned on to the fact that masks work, and is asking people to wear any kind of masks outside, even homemade ones if that’s all they can manage. Also, on some local boards I’ve seen requests for people to help sew masks for hospitals, meaning the hospitals are also wising up on PPE.

    It looks bad if you get caught up in the minutiae, but zoom out and it appears that the big bureaucracies are all falling in line, one by one. The FDA did an emergency approval for HCQ. The CDC is now (mostly) telling the truth about masks. Rapid-fire testing is around the corner.

    Executive authority works. Even weak and limited executive authority is better than the shitshow of priests and their rituals.

    • BC says:

      Watching the masks thing has been instructive on how social signaling behavior works. I warned family members for over month to wear masks, I gave out N95s I’d stocked up and no one wore them. I explained all the reasons why, I pointed out the South Koreans using them, etc. Until the moment the people in authority started saying it good idea, no I knew was using them and when I tried to using them in public I was treated as a social pariah.

      We could have a well run very functional civilization if the people at the top were not so fucking stupid.

      • Not Tom says:

        N-95s are great if you need to go out, you’re certain that you’re already healthy, and you can get one that’s properly rated for droplets (i.e. not the dust masks which are also called N-95). But that was never really the issue with the original CDC guidance against masks.

        The reason China, South Korea and the more intelligent countries made mask-wearing mandatory is to protect other people. Most people don’t realize they’re sick until several days after infection; many never realize it at all. While a conventional surgical mask or a t-shirt wrapped around your face may not be very effective at preventing you from catching the disease, it is quite effective at preventing you from transmitting it.

        Face masks are like a simple and inexpensive vaccine; easy to make, easy to deploy, no risk of side effects. They provide imperfect yet pretty good herd immunity to respiratory infections, but only if everyone wears one – or at least most people. It’s not about you or your family, it’s about R0.

        CDC bureaucrats wanted to prevent hoarding so that healthcare workers could stock up on N-95s. They should have been telling people the truth, with the exact opposite advice, as in: please don’t hoard N-95s because hospitals need them, but do stock up on surgical masks and wear them whenever you go out. Or better yet, just impose an emergency ban on the private sale of N-95s, and tell people to wear whatever masks they can find; no misinformation required. But this would require us to have an actual government, not an incompetent and sclerotic priesthood.

        Unfortunately this guidance is still “voluntary” and I fully expect that a majority of people won’t follow it. It has to be mandatory. 1 out of every 5 people wearing a mask, assuming we even get that many, isn’t going to slow the transmission very much.

        • BC says:

          The reason China, South Korea and the more intelligent countries made mask-wearing mandatory is to protect other people. Most people don’t realize they’re sick until several days after infection; many never realize it at all. While a conventional surgical mask or a t-shirt wrapped around your face may not be very effective at preventing you from catching the disease, it is quite effective at preventing you from transmitting it.

          Not quite correct. South Korea did a study of this during SARS and they found that people wearing any sort of masks even if the rest of people were not had lower rates of infection and often the infection was less dangerous. Viral load is an important factor with how sick you get and pretty much all cloth masks reduce the size of the viral load.

          • The Cominator says:

            The reason the government was advising against mask was to prevent a toilet paper situation… there just weren’t nearly enough of them to keep up with demand if they were recommended. They wanted to reserve the supplies for the hospitals.

            • BC says:

              The reason the government was advising against mask was to prevent a toilet paper situation… there just weren’t nearly enough of them to keep up with demand if they were recommended. They wanted to reserve the supplies for the hospitals.

              No shit sherlock.

          • Not Tom says:

            Yes, you are correct. Any face covering whatsoever is going to have more of a protective effect than none at all. Even the plastic Batman mask you wore for Halloween in the 1980s is more than zero percent effective.

            But SK wouldn’t mandate masks in order to protect individuals, otherwise they’d only have mandated it for the elderly. Closed masks are much more effective at preventing outgoing spread than incoming spread. If the virus is already aerosolized, then there’s only so much that any barrier can do – but if you’re carrying the virus, wearing a mask can prevent it from ever being aerosolized in the first place.

            At least that’s my inductive explanation of why they’re so much more effective at outgoing than incoming.

  14. Mr.P says:

    More Cominator validation …

    “Enough Of The Lies Folks”
    https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=238773

    – End the lock-downs

    – Covid-19 is transmitted primarily in hospitals

    – Isolate all medical personnel

    – Ventilators do not save lives

    – Going on a vent is near-certain death

    – Hydroxychloroquine in combo with other substances works

    – Shelter in place only the high-risk

    – End the madness of turning U.S. economy into a smoldering bomb crater.

    But how, when the usual suspects are pushing from behind to intensify the panic and destruction?

    • The Cominator says:

      https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2020/04/02/were-living-under-government-by-modeling/

      Some of you may think Rush is too boomer conservatism inc. but he cuts right to the heart of it here…

      Its like global warming as a sudden panic before the skepticism could buildup.

      The solution is Trump needs to pushback, but he only has about 10 days…

      • Pooch says:

        The proof will be in the pudding. If we aren’t well on our way to at least 100k deaths in the next couple weeks, the so-called peak, we and Trump can decidedly call Fauci and company’s model to be bullshit and declare the crisis over.

        • The Cominator says:

          The Cathedral is already astroturfing against this by declaring that the deaths (which they are OVERcounting) are in fact undercounted.

          • Strannik says:

            If that’s the reality of the situation, that there are fewer deaths than they project, they will state that it was their efforts that saved those additional lives. Both sides will do that, but I think the American people will know who really was making the effort.

            • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

              Michigan and Nevada governors reversed their bans on hydroxychloroquine. Cuomo ambiguously overruled but has irrecoverably pinned himself to the death-by-FDA side of the issue… and then his brother got the virus.

              Pets of Poz in NYC are recovering (having been on the last rites Ventilator Of Death) after getting the HCQ + AZT treatment. Laura Ingraham TV show promoting HCQ+AZT as the cure.

              There is now an aggregator account “Hydroxychloroquine News” on Twitter where you can follow this disaster (for the DNC) as it unfolds story by story. It is a literally-fatal credibility failure the Democratic establishment cannot conceal. If Pelosi “investigates” Trump he will of course push the HCQ issue to the hilt, CV19 fatalities by that point clearly stopped at under 10 percent of the catastrophized projections.

              • Mister Grumpus says:

                This world is going to need shitloads of HCQ for the next some years. Anybody looking for a growth industry to invest in well you sure found it.

                • jim says:

                  Anyone IQ 110-120 can make HCQ. There is not going to be much profit margin.

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  So, the existing players will just ramp up what they’re doing now? Copy-paste copy-paste? Is that what you expect?

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Regulatory capture is like magic.

                  Pharma will turn a low profit-per-unit moderate volume line into a moderate PPU, huge volume, permanent guaranteed market (“to ensure critical national supply”), with 20 new expensive bioengineered flavors and coatings (so anyone can take it with a 99.999 guarantee of no side effects no matter their side conditions), patent protected and monopolized versus generics (“to assure safety and quality control”). Studies will show that HCQ works much better with a superexpensive partner drug, a cocktail that coincidentally will be the government approved gold standard of treatment.

                • jim says:

                  Peer reviewed studies never show that a generic or a supplement works. Odd that🙃

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  Omar, I am equally infuriated and convinced by your prediction.

                  This is a wider and deeper legitimacy crisis than I could ever have imagined. Such malignancy, such parasitism. This is “Antoinette class“ disregard for the citizenry. Just amazing.

                  A lot of ambitious people can make a lot of political hay out of this, and I’m not altogether comfortable with or trusting of a good many of those people.

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  Oh and everyone here can smack me for needing this Covid crisis, now, to actually comprehend the malignancy. And after years on this blog too, only now I’m starting to really make it out. How silly.

                  The silver lining must be that surely I’m not the only one.

                • Atavistic Morality says:

                  If they had a disregard for the citizens, the citizens would be much better off.

                  You’re saying they are like knights looking down on plebeians because they don’t hold themselves to the same high code of honor. But they are like priests pitying the poor plebeians who are like children and need their guidance.

                  The knightly father is disappointed and shames you, which incentivises improvement and following the example.

                  The motherly priest pities you and smothers you with his care for your own good, enjoy the slavery of welfare.

                • chedolf says:

                  This is a wider and deeper legitimacy crisis than I could ever have imagined. Such malignancy, such parasitism.

                  Nick Land: “Confident prediction: Since all Western societies have now irrecoverably lost all sense of common responsible government, they will loot the shit out of themselves until it’s over.”

                • Atavistic Morality says:

                  Hardly a new concept, Hans-Hermann Hoppe has been talking about politicians in democracy being high time preference looters for decades.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Hoppe is pretty great.

                  Hoppe claims to be sort of an ancap but he is in reality VERY VERY close to us in the way he thinks and in some ways more advanced than most of NRx.

                  Hoppe has basically echoed my view that we need a Final Solution to the Leftist Problem… what he said is they need to be “physically removed from society”.

                • Not Tom says:

                  Anyone IQ 110-120 can make HCQ. There is not going to be much profit margin.

                  Isn’t this true of most, if not all drugs? The billions it supposedly costs to develop them all go toward discovering that some new or previously unimportant compound is effective at treating some new or previously unimportant disease, and of course the subsequent clinical trials. The formulas themselves are generally not too complicated, which is why generic replacements show up almost immediately in foreign countries, and immediately after patent expiration in the USA.

                  Possibly HCQ is already cheaper than most because of where it was designed to be deployed, but most drugs can be produced very cheaply in terms of per-unit cost if there’s an incentive to ramp up production.

                  Omar is probably right, of course; the bureaucrats will find a way to make this very expensive for consumers and highly profitable for themselves. OPEC learned how to manipulate prices by intentionally and openly constraining supply; the US medical bureaucracy learned how to manipulate prices by “accidentally” turning a single easily mass-produced commodity into dozens of low-yield snowflakes thus incidentally constraining supply of each, and opacifying its inefficiency through insurance middlemen.

        • jim says:

          The crisis is not going to be over until we have drive by testing, and drive by pickup of meds in every major big box parking lot.

          • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

            The effect of mass testing on-demand will be a perpetual stream of false positives (rate is already high, meaning a lot of CV19 case and death numbers are fake) keeping fear porn alive, while actual CV19 is eliminated by the resulting application of the Zelenko-type protocols.

            • jim says:

              What is keeping fear alive is exponential growth in the number of deaths. If the number of deaths stops growing, no one is going to care about the number of positives.

              By the way, total deaths from all causes has dropped dramatically, probably because Wu Flu protocols are stopping the spread of all flues, because people are less exposed to adverse weather, less exposed to opportunities for violence, having fewer traffic accidents, and having fewer unnecessary hospital stays.

              Hospitals are biased in favor of hospitalization, because if someone dies because he needed hospitalization, and was not hospitalized, it is a big problem for the hospital, but if someone dies because he was hospitalized, and did not need hospitalization, no one can prove he did not need hospitalization, so no problem. Fewer hospitalizations, considerably fewer deaths.

              • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                The “number of deaths” is not the number of deaths, R0 is a meaningless metaphor at this point (hint: it’s not a constant, it’s a distribution, truncated at the high modes by distancing), “CFR” is not the actual CFR, etc — but try explaining that to the fear-porners and their customers. You have to read the fine print and the Arxiv sites.

                If there has been a huge exponential spike in excess deaths from pneumonia (relative to secular trend), it’s real. If not, false positives and misattribution of most deaths “with” CV19 as deaths “from”. I don’t think the real data or things one can infer the real numbers from will be out for some time, but people on arxiv are making some educated guesses.

                • The Cominator says:

                  I suspect you are right about universal testing…

                  In my boredom I watched a clip of enemy media about Fauci and Trump (I’m trying to find out why he won’t push back against this little fucker) and Morning Joe on MSNBC wants mass testing…

                  They are up to something. I suspect the tests we are likely to get are not likely to be the ones the South Koreans got.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Mass testing is a way of muddying the waters to prolong the state of emergency. If it already did a sweep through the population in late 2019, lots of people with no symptoms will test positive for bits of virus RNA, or antibodies (if it’s even known what those are at this point), so perpetual high alert.

                  There are numerous reports, including myself and several family members, of remarkably CV-like remarkably contagious infections weeks or months before the presumed arrival of the epidemic from China, and probably similar realizations happening in China.

                • The Cominator says:

                  I had not one but TWO really bad flus this season (in short succession) one of which (the 1st) caused me to have walking pneumonia (to the point where I finally went through the trouble of getting a script for antibiotics) here in FLORIDA.

                  Its quite possible the 1st one was Corona-chan as it started off with a brief fever and chills…

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Everyone but myself got it despite a flu shot, I got it despite escaping illness every other winter the past decade or two, the ones under 60 had the fever/chills/throat constriction for 4-6 days and another week or more of a cough. In the ones over 70 the same but the cough lasted 2 months. It spread quickly in a way we never saw before (despite precautions due to kids/elderly), some people saw the doctor as you did when they never normally do so for typical flu.

                  Of course it’s after the fact sampling but seemingly everyone I talk to around here (in your old stomping ground) has similar stories of a bizarre super-flu in the family before the “official” coronavirus.

                  Similarly, Victor Davis Hanson has an article asking if California already has “herd immunity” from its presumably earlier and bigger exposure to China and low case count.

                • Fred says:

                  >The “number of deaths” is not the number of deaths

                  I originally assumed the fatality numbers were reliable, but then it came out that Italy was attributing all deaths where the virus was present to the virus, whereas Germany was attributing deaths where the virus was present with comorbidities to the comorbidities.

                  So once you calculate excess deaths, most of the deaths would disappear.

                  >Victor Davis Hanson has an article asking if California already has “herd immunity” from its presumably earlier and bigger exposure to China and low case count.

                  I noticed that the places with the lowest death rates are places with the closest links to China.

                  So I’ve been wondering precisely the same thing here in Australia – apparently there were three flights per week from Wuhan to Australia, not to mention daily flights from wherever else in China. The virus would have gotten here no later than December. Assuming a three or four day doubling time, millions of people would have been infected in Australia by now – yet there’s only 26 deaths to date.

                • jim says:

                  It is entirely possible that an earlier pandemic of a disease related to Wu Flu spread around the world, and no one noticed because the symptoms were a mild flu, and the earlier epidemic gave people resistance to the new epidemic.

                • Fred says:

                  Why assume an earlier pandemic? Simplest explanation is that it’s one epidemic that just hits different places at different times depending on their “human proximity” (can’t think of a better term) to China. Australia and California have very high “human proximity” to China (thousands of people entering from China every day for months before travel was shut down), whereas east coast US and Europe have lower human proximity to China, and South America and Africa have lower proximity still.

                  Another possibility (not mutually exclusive) is different strains with different mortality rates.

                • pdimov says:

                  Several anecdotal reports of very similar symptoms in November (except nobody dies), including one from Spandrell (IIRC), who however seems to be deleting his tweets now so I can’t link to it. (“Mild” is not the right word, it’s just not deadly.)

                  V. likely the S-cov strain.

          • The Cominator says:

            That will take far too long, Trump is going to have to take radical bold action or we’ll have a real depression and then nothing will save him.

            Its Trump’s base that hates the closures and thinks its bullshit. The fickle new Trump supporters won’t stay with him with a depression and he’ll lose much of his base for cucking on this too.

          • Karl says:

            If there really is a cure, no need for drive by testing. Someone who has mild symptoms doesn’t need not to do anything, those who get pneumonia are treated.

            Why do think that drive by testing is necessary?

            • jim says:

              There is ample evidence that the sooner meds start, the better the outcome. Anyone that gets a temperature should get tested the same day in the parking lot of nearest big box store, and if positive, take meds the same day.

              Also, the sooner meds start, the less he is going to spread Wu Flu.

              A big part of the problem is that we medicalized the problem, and hospitals spread the disease, as they spread many other diseases. Drive by medicine will save lives, the holy rituals of medicine are killing people.

              A huge advantage of private hospitals is that with a nice room, and nice food service, you are a lot less likely to die of hospital infection and iatrogenic injury, but home is safer than even a private hospital.

              • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                Italy and Spain are giving out HCQ like candy now. It is utterly clear that Zelenko was right, and (what else is new) the leftist media organs are lethal to their own.

                In New York there are now not only patients, but upper level media personnel brought back from the brink by HCQ, and other media people who died apparently from not getting the HCQ. Despite this Fox News is the only channel airing reports about HCQ, Zelenko, and replications of Zelenko. Story ratio is 10 to 1 pro HCQ on Fox, 20 to 1 contra HCQ treatment on CNN and MSNBC.

                If Cuomo’s brother admits to being prescribed HCQ it will be uncomfortable for the MSM — if he gets seriously ill and is saved by it, extinction level event.

                • The Cominator says:

                  I think Trump should seriously issue an executive order mandating the detention of anyone including within the press or academic medicine who casts doubt on the effectiveness of HCQ. And that furthermore that for the duration that no court order for them to be released will be honored.

                  I don’t want to hear anything about their civil liberties or free speech while we are all under quarantine.

                  That should bring this thing to a quick end and I think he could get away with it.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Brazil is doing immediate HCQ+AZT at onset of symptoms, with Bolsonaro’s encouragement.

                  Twitter deleted pro HCQ tweets by Bolsonaro and a pro-Zelenko tweet by Giuliani.

                  The interesting thing about the MSM position on HCQ is not so much that they kill people for sport, that is old news. It’s that the high likelihood of imminent proof that they are killing people, even their own people, even their fellow blue state progs and fellow comrades in the MSM, does not bother them in the least. It’s like a real time, slow motion demonstration of Jim’s description of the Khmer Rouge internal dynamics, livestreamed to a billion people.

        • pdimov says:

          Should take 12-13 days if current trend holds. Call it two weeks.

          • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

            It looks like for both cases and deaths, in both the JHU and CDC counting ( i.e., the hyperinflated and superinflated number of deaths nominally due to CV19) the peak daily increase was April 4. This is also true for the New York City and New York state (excluding NYC) data.

            Earlier I thought March 30 and Jim had said something similar (maybe the 29th) but there was a jump shortly after. This “peak” seems more robust. It is not driven by NYC, the peak is sharper in the rest of the country. Going forward, nowhere else in USA has the density of New York City or the level of lethal stupidity demonstrated by its government; HCQ use is widespread and increasing, social distancing and masks work. Hospitals are empty around the country. If the cumulative death curve is more or less a sigmoid, the estimate is to double the current number of deaths.

            So 15-16K as the eventual CDC or JHU numbers of CV19. Nothing close to 100K unless there are some big surprises coming. And those numbers to collapse when nominal versus real case counts are sorted out statistically (excess pneumonia deaths; causal attribution of multifactor deaths).

            Jim should really take credit as 2026 is coming early and the prog elites are putting on a Khmer Rouge show straight out of his Pol Pot stories. All that’s missing is something absurdist, blatant and dangerous like virus-based coup attempts against Trump or nominating (Barack) Obama as the DNC candidate.

            • BC says:

              HCQ use is widespread and increasing, social distancing and masks work.

              I’m starting to see towns mandating masks, if NYC does the same then public transit should become a lot less dangerous. Social distancing is and continues to be a stupid and ineffective version of wearing masks.

              • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                Standing 2m apart is a clown show, but the other behavioral changes that have come into effect along with the 2m (even before masks) do reduce the rate of transmission.

                The effects of this should have been seen sooner in the death and case counts, the time lag is not that big, which may indicate not a failure of quarantine to slow the disease, but that a compensating number of new cases and deaths are coming from exponentially escalated testing among the elderly.

                • pdimov says:

                  The time lag between symptoms and death (or recovery) is ten days.

                  Case counts, who knows. This number doesn’t mean much. You could probably reverse-engineer the case number from going back ten days and dividing deaths by some made up CFR (multiplying by 100 should be approximate enough.) Then compare it to what the reported number was.

            • pdimov says:

              >It looks like for both cases and deaths, in both the JHU and CDC counting ( i.e., the hyperinflated and superinflated number of deaths nominally due to CV19) the peak daily increase was April 4.

              You called it a bit too early, but you already know that.

              >So 15-16K as the eventual CDC or JHU numbers of CV19.

              Should be falsified in a few days too.

              • Strannik says:

                And there is more good news out there, the Israelis will be bringing out a possible vaccine by June 1;

                https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/04/08/report-israeli-scientists-to-test-virus-vaccine-on-humans-by-june-1/

              • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                Passive aggressive fear porn is functionally equivalent to shilling.

                Your prediction was 100k deaths by April 15 – 17, which requires deaths per day 6x higher than the last 3 days (12k vs 1900), and 20-25x higher if the deaths per day increase smoothly. That’s more than a doubling every 2 days.

                You appear to not understand the difference between exponential growth (we are out of that phase long ago) and a sigmoid curve (seems to fit, and we have been in its linear phase for a while), and are going with muh exponential. If you are actually using some other model to think about this, such as “whatever Dr Fauci and Brix say”, just say so.

                Never mind that we are talking about counts inflated by policy (“presumptive” cases + deaths “with”), false positives, no discounting for multiple conditions, no comparison to Excess Deaths from respiratory conditions, no calculating
                Mortality Displacement instead of deaths, etc. We are speaking only of the Officially official CDC numbers. Also, sigmoid assumes past and future are symmetrical around the peak rather than HCQ and social isolation actually being effective.

                In the sigmoid model, mis-judging the date of peak daily deaths by X days means an underestimate of roughly 2x the death count during those X days. So another way to put this, if you want to do something other than snark, is to ask when you think the peak will in fact occur. New CDC cases (not deaths) are the same over the latest 5 days (Apr 4-9) as the 5 days before that.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Should say 12-15x higher per day (25-30k deaths per day) under smooth increases. This is slightly less than doubling every 2 days but not by much. Wildly implausible just by looking at the trajectory of case counts.

                • pdimov says:

                  >Passive aggressive fear porn is functionally equivalent to shilling.

                  You aren’t very good at being wrong.

                  >Your prediction was 100k deaths by April 15 – 17

                  Yes, and when it turns out to be wrong, and you call me out for it, I won’t call you a passive-aggressive shill.

                  >You appear to not understand the difference between exponential growth and a sigmoid curve

                  > if you want to do something other than snark, is to ask when you think the peak will in fact occur.

                  These two statements don’t make sense together.

                  But my answer is, 20 days from now.

                • Not Tom says:

                  You appear to not understand the difference between exponential growth (we are out of that phase long ago) and a sigmoid curve (seems to fit, and we have been in its linear phase for a while), and are going with muh exponential.

                  And the Richard Epstein fanbois are refusing to differentiate between pre-suppression and post-suppression models.

                  We are flattening the curve. I don’t agree with that policy – we should obliterate the curve, not flatten it – but that is the policy. Most states, and indeed most countries, are still in a state between California soft lockdown and South Korea hard lockdown. A flattened exponential curve looks exactly like a sigmoid curve.

                  Pre-suppression, muh exponential growth. Post-suppression, muh sigmoid curve. If we end suppression now without changing anything else, we revert from muh sigmoid to muh exponential. China tried exactly this, and saw an immediate second wave, because they jumped the gun.

                  I don’t listen to flacks like Fauci. I barely even know who he is. I don’t listen to fools like Epstein either. I look at the data, the case counts and CFRs and test results, and the research papers as far as I can understand them, and my interpretation of that data is that (a) we’ve managed to bring down R0 significantly, but not below 1, and (b) we still have no ability to control the spread beyond the unfortunately heavy handed measures being taken now.

                  I am very optimistic about the HCQ cocktail. I am very optimistic about the new information being uncovered about ventilators and ICUs. I think this points to, as Trump calls it, a light at the end of the tunnel. I think that if these things pan out, and they probably will, we should be able to quickly shift to a regime of masks, contact tracing, and early intervention, and subsequent deaths will drop to almost zero. End of April sounds totally plausible to me, give or take a few weeks at most.

                  However, if we jump the gun like China did because of cabin fever, we will see another sharp spike in deaths. And it will be much, much harder politically to impose lockdown the second time. People are sort of used to this right now, but if you tell them things are back to normal and then tell them oopsie, go back home and don’t come out… then you’ve effectively ended whatever trust and goodwill those people may have had.

                  Just be patient. People are working on the problem. I don’t mean “public health officials”, I don’t mean the faggots at the WHO, I mean good people – doctors, nurses and researchers who are doing as many tests as they can and treating as many patients as they can with the newest therapies, and there is still no shortage of patients. A few more weeks of waiting isn’t going to kill anyone – or at least a lot fewer than not waiting.

                • jim says:

                  > Most states, and indeed most countries, are still in a state between California soft lockdown and South Korea hard lockdown.

                  South Korea and Taiwan is not in lockdown and never were in lockdown. People are still going to work in the crowded big city. They never stopped going to work in the crowded big city.

                  They are contact tracing and locking down contacts, which is a very small number of people, and require sanitary practices everywhere for everyone – but sanitary practices do not interfere with people’s work and lives.

                  We are unable to do contact tracing because we lack state capacity, and because the CDC blocked testing for a long time for religious and political reasons.

                  > then you’ve effectively ended whatever trust and goodwill those people may have had.

                  No one should have trust and goodwill in the government. It is politically disadvantageous to us collectively, and any individual who individually has trust and goodwill towards the government is at risk of individual bad consequences, because we have massive state dysfunction.

                  I see the same blindness to state dysfunction as I see towards female sexual misconduct in the workplace, though you are allowed to see it through cracks, because you are allowed to blame it on one political party or the other. But you are not allowed to notice state dysfunction of the permanent government, the judiciary, the bureaucracy, and the professoriat, only the merely elected officials.

                • Not Tom says:

                  I’ve heard differently regarding SK, but alright, we can use China as an example then. Even if they’ve understated their death counts, the severe measures they had to take to get them down to wherever they are now are not really in question.

                  We’ve already blown way past SK’s worst possible projections. As you say, contact tracing is possible when the number of cases is small and known, but here in the USA we still do not have a firm handle on that.

                  Then again, as Moldbug says, we don’t even know how many people are in the country, period – how can we know how many are infected? I try not to be that pessimistic, but worst case scenario is that we can never do contact tracing properly because it’s actually a coup-complete problem. I hope that turns out to be a non-issue.

                • pdimov says:

                  >Pre-suppression, muh exponential growth. Post-suppression, muh sigmoid curve. If we end suppression now without changing anything else, we revert from muh sigmoid to muh exponential.

                  Exactly. Sigmoids don’t just fall from the sky, something has to make them happen. This something is either (1) the virus runs out of people to infect or (2) people stop infecting others (R drops below 1).

                  Predicting a natural sigmoid (without changes in behavior) when just a few percent of the population are infected presupposes 80%+ immunity. Not impossible in principle, I like this outcome and hope for it, but one shouldn’t be surprised if it doesn’t pan out.

                • jim says:

                  By the time a new flu runs its course, and Wu Flu is yet another new flu, deadlier than most, less deadly than Spanish Flu, a substantial proportion of the population has been infected and gained immunity.

                  If one percent death rate, that is two million people. Have to achieve significant reduction in lethality before allowing it to run its course. Looks like the Dr. Zelenko protocol achieves sufficient reduction in lethality to allow it to run its course, but we will have to remove the institutional obstacles to the Zelenko protocol.

                  This would amount to Trump declaring himself high priest, or like King Solomon, purging the current priesthood, which is likely to require at least a small start on the Cominator’s hopes and dreams.

                  The priesthood might capitulate without the need to actually make a start on the Cominator program, but it is going to require a realistic fear of a start. One way Trump might cover such a threat in legality is to tell them that if some peer reviewed studies give results that turn out to be wrong, there is going to be consequences, we are going to look into how those results were obtained, they are not going to get the kid gloves treatment that Global Warming fraud has been getting, that if malpractice is revealed, those engaged in malpractice will pay in full for lives lost.

                • The Cominator says:

                  The US government is obviously too bloated and incompetent to function as well as Japan and South Korea, even if it wanted this crisis to end (and the bureaucracy doesn’t because they want to destroy Trump and his economy) they wouldn’t be able to do contact tracing the right the way Japan and South Korea can.

                  So basically the virus has to be allowed to run its course mitigated by the Zelenko protocol. Trump’s reelection and avoiding a depression are worth whatever marginal lives would be lost by a quick reopening… why are we all so squeamish and hysterical about losing a few extra boomers to the holocough (oy vey the six gorillion).

                • Pooch says:

                  It really is pointless talking about proper mitigation strategy at this point. Regardless of what the data shows, we now know, with certainty, that the Cathedral will push for more lockdown, perhaps indefinite lockdown. Cuomo has repeatedly stated it’s worth it to even save one life. These people are insane and going to push for lockdown until the vaccine comes. Not only that they are now discussing bullshit like blacks are disproportionaly affected.

                  The current unemployment rate is 10%. It was 20% during the great depression with people living in shanties of Hoovertown. We are rapidly heading there and perhaps past it. The only curve worth discussing to be flattened is the unemployment one.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @pooch

                  Indefinite lockdown means starvation.

                • Not Tom says:

                  So basically the virus has to be allowed to run its course

                  No.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  @Not Tom

                  The lockdown has begun to disrupt the food supply.

                • pdimov says:

                  Lockdowns are not in the Cathedral’s interest, and quick reopening is not in Trump’s interest.

                  I wonder where the idea that the Cathedral should demand lockdowns comes from. Is this the usual American-libertarian idea that the Government wants to enslave the population due to some irrational totalitarian impulse? The Cathedral is parasitic and feeds off prosperity. Without an economy, it remains without a source of income except printing money, and this doesn’t work indefinitely.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “Lockdowns are not in the Cathedral’s interest, and quick reopening is not in Trump’s interest.”

                  The Cathedral is MAD, they absolutely want the lockdowns to continue until at least Trump is out of office.

                  “he Cathedral is parasitic and feeds off prosperity. Without an economy, it remains without a source of income except printing money, and this doesn’t work indefinitely.”

                  You are assuming that the priests understand or even care about economics, proper understanding of economics is impure and unholy. Khmer Rogue style controls over Trump voters in flyover country is pure and holy. Their goals are not rational.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “No.”

                  Well you probably can’t stop the spread of this anyway.

                  Trump’s reelection and a quick economic recovery are worth a marginally higher toll of dead urban boomers.

                  If you are so concerned about a few predominantly urban NAM democrat urban boomers it would be best to provide free of charge isolation facilities for people in high risk categories and otherwise get Corona-chan over with as quickly as possible.

                • Not Tom says:

                  Trump’s reelection and a quick economic recovery are worth a marginally higher toll of dead urban boomers.

                  This being some kind of disaster for Trump is just one more item in the long list of things you’ve been dead wrong about and are doubling down on anyway. The majority approves of Trump’s handling of SARS2, the media and the Democratic party have lost a lot of credibility, and his approval is higher than ever – all while under the current lockdown. This might have been bad for your 401k, but it hasn’t been bad for Trump.

                  That doesn’t mean his approval will continue to go up the longer this goes on, obviously, but most people show a smidge of humility when they’ve made so many bad predictions, rather than autistically blather on about how they must still be right (any day now, you’ll see!).

                  Wu Flu is yet another new flu

                  Come on dude, it’s not a flu. There’s a difference between informally calling it wuflu and actually saying, literally, that it’s another flu. It’s not even the same family of virus, and if the latest theories prove to be true, it also doesn’t have the same symptoms or pathology as any known strain of influenza.

                  1% death rate isn’t looking very likely either. Apparent CFR started to rise about two weeks ago and is still rising, now nearly 4% in the US. That may be on the high side if we are still undercounting cases, but by the same token, very low CFR has been an artifact of rapid growth – of deaths lagging cases and cases multiplying quickly. As new cases start to slow down, apparent CFR goes up. The only countries still reporting CFR 10 are probably systematically undercounting cases, but 1% appears optimistic. Maybe some early strains were 1% but the ones going around lately are worse.

                • jim says:

                  1% is plausible, and it looks like if you just let it burn through, it burns out after infecting a majority of the population. In which case, two million deaths in the USA.

                  It is another flu, but not just another flu – flu is a random collection of similar viruses that rely largely on airborne spread by coughing, and are in substantial part positive stranded RNA viruses that are capable of exchanging genetic material with each other – capable of having virus sex with each other. It is an unusually deadly flu that produces effects that other flues do not, and attacks systems in your body that other flues do not, probably because somewhere along the line it likely miscegenated with HIV virus, which is not a flu, but is yet another positive stranded RNA virus.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “That doesn’t mean his approval will continue to go up the longer this goes on, obviously, but most people show a smidge of humility when they’ve made so many bad predictions, rather than autistically blather on about how they must still be right (any day now, you’ll see!).”

                  Jim hes lying here in a way not normally allowed. The skeptics have been generally right not wrong about this.

                  Its also (as I’ve repeatedly said) impossible to really calculate the death rate without knowing the number of cases.

                  There will not be 2 million deaths or anywhere near that there will not even be 80000 (the seasonal flu 2019-2020).

                  Now it COULD mutate into something nastier but that is not likely.

                • jim says:

                  > Jim hes lying here in a way not normally allowed. The skeptics have been generally right not wrong about this

                  There is genuine uncertainty about the potential and likely scale of the deaths, and a lot of predictions have been made by a lot of people, some of them unreasonable, and some of which turned out to be wildly wrong.

                  You both need to tell us which predictions, made when, by whom, turned out to be badly wrong, and which predictions turned out reasonable. Give us some links.

                • pdimov says:

                  >there will not even be 80000

                  120-160K, assuming no “quick reopening”.

                • pdimov says:

                  >The Cathedral is MAD

                  The Cathedral is starving. Journalists are being laid off. Media is going bankrupt. Colleges are going bankrupt. Censorship departments at YouTube and Twitter are inoperative.

                  Their voters don’t fare that well either. Cities are hard hit for obvious reasons. Blacks, Muslims and immigrants are hard hit for equally obvious reasons.

                  The Cathedral is stupid, I give you that, but it’s not completely devoid of brain. If this continues, expect them to suddenly discover the plight of the working class caused by evil Trump’s lockdowns.

                  Coronachan is chemotherapy for America. Healthy tissue suffers, but the tumor will die first.

                • Pooch says:

                  You both need to tell us which predictions, made when, by whom, turned out to be badly wrong, and which predictions turned out reasonable. Give us some links.

                  Professor Briggs has continuously presented a strong case on why Coronavirus is no worse then the Swine flu and why the models used by Fauci and Brix are bullshit. It is their models, and only their models, that apparently all mitigation policy is being based off of. I would recommend reading most of his material from his coronavirus series.

                  https://wmbriggs.com/post/30278/

                • Pooch says:

                  Coronavirus is likely a real crisis (like swine flu was), but the Cathedral has now high-jacked it. The cathedral has and is derangingly against HCQ as a form of treatment and is using creative counting of deaths (with covid instead of “of” covid) to keep the death count artificially high.

                  Why? The more deaths, the longer the lockdown. The longer the lockdown, the more opportunity for it to enact more socialism. They want us waiting in line for government cheese.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Fauci is now saying that he never believed in muh models (after the fact because they were so wrong and he wants to escape blame) and based the whole batshit response to this virus on muh Italy.

                  https://www.foxnews.com/media/fauci-coronavirus-mitigation-programs-models-china-italy

                  But the models originally projected millions of boomers were going to die of the holocough and now they have been revised down to less than 100000. Looks like the death is now on track to be 35-50k in the US (which is more than I thought but far less than the panicmongers predicted, and also it appears some blue states are padding their numbers and are still slow to use Cloroquine until its too late).

                  https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-uk-report-projects-2-million-deaths-without-action-2020-3

                  Fake and gay all around.

                • Not Tom says:

                  There will not be 2 million deaths or anywhere near that there will not even be 80000 (the seasonal flu 2019-2020).

                  Where are you getting these insane numbers from?

                  The worst flu season in the US in recent history was 2017-2018 with 60,000 deaths. Every other season has been between 30k and 50k, with 40k being the average. That is the threshold for your “less than the flu” prediction.

                  Don’t try to move the goalposts by “reporting” a figure that hasn’t been published yet, and for which preliminary estimates have a much lower ceiling, never mind the actual tally. When you said “it kills less than the flu”, you knew and everyone else here knew that you were referring to the ubiquitously-cited 40,000 per year.

                  And this is without taking into account, as others have already pointed out, the fact that no significant preventative measures were taken for any previous flu season (aside from vaccines that we both agree aren’t generally effective), and that “the seasonal flu” is an entire category of viruses compared to this one coronavirus with maybe a half-dozen mutations.

                  There will not be 2 million deaths

                  Because there will not be a total elimination of controls. No one, including Trump, is that stupid or politically suicidal. No one predicted 2 million deaths with controls.

                  We’re just starting to see random testing, and obviously the results are radically different by area. The Gangelt (Germany) study estimated about a 15% infection rate, and that was an area hit very badly. We should expect to see similar numbers for a place like New York; let’s be generous and bump it up to 20%. That means without controls we’d have 5x as many infections and deaths. It’s at about 8k now, meaning with no controls, there’d be 40k in New York alone, which is more than seasonal flu across the entire country in most years.

                  I’ll say again, the difference between California and New York is the difference between controls and no controls. The worst part of CA is LA, which is nowhere near as bad as anywhere in NY. California had cases – untraceable cases implying community transmission – much earlier than any other state except for Washington. Why are states like Florida, Louisiana, Massachusetts and Illinois about to overtake California and Washington, and Ohio and Indiana are fast approaching, when all of these states are less dense, have less travel, and had much more time to prepare?

                  https://wmbriggs.com/post/30278/

                  I RTWT. I don’t understand any of his graphs. All of them are projecting bell curves onto time-series plots that, yes, are a little noisy, but haven’t really shown signs of even flattening yet, never mind collapsing. Not a single log-scale or log-log plot.

                  Briggs is a good dude but I don’t think he’s being objective on this subject. His frequent interspersing of actual data with “muh economy” rhetoric isn’t helping. He doesn’t make any arguments from epidemiology at all, just doing model extrapolation, and there’s no reason to believe his models are more accurate than anyone else’s. They’re probably less accurate, since they are much more simplistic.

                • jim says:

                  Anyone who fails to use log scale graphs is not a good source of information on pandemics.

                • Not Tom says:

                  flu is a random collection of similar viruses

                  …of which SARS2 is not a member. Flu is influenza, SARS2 is coronavirus. They aren’t even the same phylum, never mind the same family!

                  Flu isn’t a generic term for “RNA virus”, otherwise rabies and polio would also be the flu.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “s frequent interspersing of actual data with “muh economy” rhetoric”

                  Only a commie or a prog would ever say “muh economy” as if it doesn’t matter particularly in Trump’s reelection year. What doesn’t matter is how many old urban NAM boomers (Trump voting boomers by and large don’t stay in big northern cities) die.

                  I haven’t even read this Briggs but what exactly is he wrong about?

                • Not Tom says:

                  If you want controls you should do it this way.

                  The only part that’s not behind a paywall is the part that’s saying we can’t wait for a vaccine.

                  Which no one here is saying we should do.

                  “If you want controls you should remove controls”. Great, real insightful.

                • Not Tom says:

                  I haven’t even read this Briggs but what exactly is he wrong about?

                  I literally spelled out my objections in detail in the post you quoted from.

                  Once again, you demonstrate that you won’t read or listen to what other people have to say. You just skim everything and immediately throw out anything that doesn’t sound favorable to your position.

                • pdimov says:

                  >I RTWT. I don’t understand any of his graphs.

                  Briggs’s first model died a horrible death. His second model (with a much higher peak) is holding up so far.

                • Not Tom says:

                  Anyone who fails to use log scale graphs is not a good source of information on pandemics.

                  I went through it again, just to make absolutely sure I didn’t miss one. It turns out that there is one log-scale plot, the “Reported Cases & Deaths USA” chart. For some reason that’s the only one.

                  So I erred in saying there was no log-scale. The one log-scale graph, however, doesn’t tell the story he wants it to tell. He extrapolates the starting line back to make it look like a nice power function, but it would be just as easy to draw a straight line from the actual starting point and conclude that it almost became concave upward but we managed to get it under control and bring it back to basically a straight line (on log scale).

                  In fact it is only since April 1 or so that it appears to be slowing down just a little – but it is still not flat, not even close! His extrapolations are completely arbitrary curve fits that might be right or might be wrong, there’s no way to know.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “Anyone who fails to use log scale graphs is not a good source of information on pandemics.”

                  If you are referring to Briggs I would say in his defense that logarithmic scale graphs often confuse people without some kind of technical or mathematical background.

                  In one of my past jobs we were trying (in vain) to explain to an idiot fire marshal that going from 100 to 120 decibels for an alarm system was not 20% louder but 4x louder because decibels were a logarithmic unit.

                  https://twitter.com/mitchellvii/status/1249078494736396294

                  Briggs main point is right… any sane society would have all the so called public health experts LITERALLY burned at the stake, shot or stoned as false prophets at this point. They are just another useless part of the priesthood which knows nothing except how to cause trouble that we would be better off getting rid of.

                • Not Tom says:

                  Apology for the repeated posts but just to be clear, what I mean by the alternate interpretation above is: we started with relatively low R0 because, in the beginning, we were attempting to do contact tracing, not effectively enough to actually stop the spread but still somewhat effectively.

                  Then we blew up R0 because we ended contact tracing, brought home those infected travelers and cruise ship passengers, had local outbreaks in WA (large) and CA (small), and even some superspreader events e.g. in NY.

                  Then we stopped European travel and many states/cities started imposing lockdowns. That was in mid-March, and over the next 1-2 weeks is when we start to see the curve collapse slightly.

                  The point being that, yes, it is possible to look at the graph in isolation and interpret it as an epidemic running its course, but also possible to interpret it as the [mostly] successful imposition of controls with a 1-2 week lag due to incubation and asymptomatic carriers. And unfortunately (a) it’s still too early to know for certain which of the above is accurate, and (b) even if we were discussing this 2 weeks later and had the data, it would still tell us nothing at all about what we’d have seen without controls or with fewer controls. We didn’t run an A-B test.

                  Based on random testing that is just starting up, it is reasonable to assume that between 1% and 15% of the U.S. population has been exposed, depending on the region. If so, that means the curve is not flattening because of herd immunity, it is flattening because of controls. Take away controls, and it will cease to be flat, unless we are able to reliably quarantine those still infected.

                  Briggs and TC think we should disregard the models and hang the modelers because they’re slightly off in their projections – but we are talking about a factor of 20-30%, not an order of magnitude. 100k was obviously too much of a nice round number to be a precise estimate anyway. So if only 80,000 people die, and we prevented it from being 800,000 through the imposition of various controls, that means we’d have been better off doing nothing? Ridiculous.

                  Briggs says this:

                  anything under 100 thousand is a blown forecast. They cannot claim “social distancing worked even better than we thought!”

                  Ok, but… why? Isn’t it possible that the models underestimated people taking voluntary measures beyond the lockdown, like cancelling travel plans and wearing masks? Not to mention having incomplete and inaccurate data on existing infection rates? The implication is that if the models were high, it must be because they overestimated the infectiousness/severity of the disease, but we can’t know that.

                  Climate models have been directionally wrong. They’re wrong qualitatively, not just quantitatively. The status-quo CV models, assuming they are wrong at all (we still don’t know that), may be off by a small percentage. The new argument/goalpost around “died from vs. died with” is cheap and petty and ridiculous, as death accounting for CV is consistent with death accounting for the flu and other infectious diseases.

                • jim says:

                  > Take away controls, and it will cease to be flat, unless we are able to reliably quarantine those still infected.

                  Vietnam does not have those controls, in the sense that they are not shutting down the economy and ending social life, but they do reliably quarantine carriers – all carriers for two weeks. This works. They make the quarantine centers nice, so that people cheerfully volunteer for a two week all expenses paid vacation.

                  The joke is that North Korea simply shoots all carriers. Whatever North Korea is doing, it is working, and what Vietnam is doing is working.

                • chedolf says:

                  And this is without taking into account, as others have already pointed out, the fact that no significant preventative measures were taken for any previous flu season (aside from vaccines that we both agree aren’t generally effective), and that “the seasonal flu” is an entire category of viruses compared to this one coronavirus with maybe a half-dozen mutations.

                  Briggs either doesn’t understand this or pretends not to understand.

                  https://i.imgur.com/PzsdTSZ.png

                  https://i.imgur.com/zO1lzln.png

                • The Cominator says:

                  Scott Adams is a very very smart guy and i respect his opinion but the original muh 2 million model assumed mitigation.

                  So the modelers still should all be executed.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  Urbanite bugmen think that it’s just “muh economy” because they think food appears in grocery stores by magic. As a result, they have begun to ban growing food (seeds are now “not essential). The food supply has been disrupted.

                  I’m with Cominator on this. Any professional expert urbanite bugman who fails to understand where his food comes from needs to be executed.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  These medical quacks need the Cominator solution done to them.

                  https://kprcradio.iheart.com/featured/walton-and-johnson/content/2020-04-03-hungry-broke-vermont-deems-seeds-nonessential-during-crisis/

                  Because there is asymptomatic carriers, every single graph, projection and model is garbage… produced by urbanite experts who have no clue where their food comes from.

                • The Cominator says:

                  The leftist insanity of Vermont is weird there is nothing truly urban about it…

                  There is no “urban” in the state of Vermont, NONE. There are about two streets in Burlington (maybe also Montpelier the “capital” but I’ve never been to Montpelier) that sort of look urban on Friday and Saturday night.

                  I lived in that state once (unfortunately) for about three months.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  The governor of Vermont, and others, are all taking orders from urbanite bugmen in NYC, LA, DC.

                  They need to be destroyed.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “The governor of Vermont, and others, are all taking orders from urbanite bugmen in NYC, LA, DC.

                  They need to be destroyed.”

                  Oh yes I completely agree but Vermont native leftism defies most of the standard explanations its just psychologically sort of fascinating.

                  Its like the last holdout of the original Anglo-Puritan rural progressivism that most of the Anglo-Puritan rural types abandoned when they decided that Woodrow Wilson was a huge fuckup and voted en masse for Warren G Harding ahd his successor (ironically from Vermont) Calvin Coolidge.

                  Now if you cross the border to New Hampshire (a similar state in many ways but New Hampshire actually has some urban parts) its not like that… all the leftist there are invaders from my state Taxachussetts (New Hampshire people are the best people in New England by far).

                  Not sure what exactly happened in Vermont that turned them or kept them leftist… I’d like to understand it perhaps if it could be understand we could do as some here dream of (but I think is doomed to fail) keep leftism at bay long term without being willing to shed serious blood.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  This is not happening “just in Vermont.” The food supply is being disrupted everywhere. Grocery stores have empty shelves. Vermont isn’t the only place where seeds and gardening/farming supplies are being deemed “non-essential.”

                  All based on fake numbers and graphs.

                • R7 Rocket says:

                  Here is the governor of Michigan banning seeds.

                  https://twitter.com/joesichspach/status/1248653376931258370

                  It’s not just Vermont. These urbanite scumbags and quacks are disrupting the food supply and banning the growing of food, all based on fake numbers, fake graphs, and fake percentages.

    • The Cominator says:

      https://yourvoiceamerica.tv/yva-4-2-20/

      I know Dr. Shiva is a dot indian (and I innately distrust them because they tend to have the worst characteristics of jews without their good qualities) but this is a very interesting discussion on the nature of the scam (and I don’t agree with everything he says)…

      And also this Dr. Fauci is a BIG POWERFUL GUY in the cathedral command in control… everyone in biological academia is apparently afraid of him because he controls their funding.

      • R7 Rocket says:

        Dr. Fauci needs to be standing in front of a firing squad, instead of standing in front of cameras.

    • The Cominator says:

      Hardly, anything that says that more testing is needed to confirm chloroquine is bullshit. Chloroquine works and the evidence is overwhelming that it works. Doubt about is an enemy meme.

      Not that any of us here believe in the constitution but if the government is going to so blatantly violate it by keep us under virtual house arrest the next step should be that all critics and anyone who disputes the effectiveness of chloroquine needs to be detained for the duration of this bullshit.

      If Trump is going to order the en masse production of ventilators (which in most cases merely delay the death of someone who is going to die, and if they save you its because the virus went into remission for the time it bought you… most likely because you got chloroquine) Soviet style he should do so for cloroquine so this madness can end ASAP.

      • BC says:

        Hardly, anything that says that more testing is needed to confirm chloroquine is bullshit. Chloroquine works and the evidence is overwhelming that it works. Doubt about is an enemy meme.

        Lets review:

        Doctors covering their asses to giving lip service to the cathedral line:

        The doctors stressed that more long-term studies are needed to draw concrete scientific conclusions about hydroxychloroquine and Chinese coronavirus. But they said they decided to act because they felt it was safe and because the coronavirus pandemic does not leave any time to wait for what could be months or even years of clinical trials.

        Doctors using the exception of “Battle Field Medicine” to ignore the holy rites:

        “This is battlefield medicine and the use of real time frontline assessment,” said Dr. Vladimir Zelenko, who practices family medicine with mostly ultra-Orthodox Jewish patients near the Orange County, New York, village of Kiryas Joel. The tightknit community has seen a deluge of coronavirus cases in recent weeks.

        The article one giant loophole to go around the roadblocck the Cathedral put up.

      • ten says:

        trumps approval ticking up rapidly in the midst of “hysteria” and economic lockdown, as should be expected – any crisis will solidify the support for the incumbent unless exceptionally botched, exemplified even further by the swedish socialists who merely severely botched their crisis management yet still receive stronger support for it.

      • Mister Grumpus says:

        The HCQ story is squirting out through more and more cracks by the day.

        Deaths per day in Italy is leveling out, maybe going down. Guess why.

        So now I’m worried about some Venezuela dumbfuckery or Gulf-of-Tonkin type shit. Just what we need.

        I hope Trump has some kind of negotiation going on where these people can set sail to Monaco instead of taking us all down with them. Please Donald don’t corner them.

  15. BC says:

    Hey, has anyone found any evidence to refute or confirm my speculation that the CDC intentionally screwed up the testing? I still haven’t gotten a straight answer on why the tests failed from the media.

    • jim says:

      The most likely explanation is that they were unable to produce tests for the same reason as Obama was unable to produce his Obamacare website, and the US Navy keeps running into things.

      • BC says:

        That does seem likely, but we’re seeing a lot of attempts to kill people in order to make Trump look bad. Again, it’s just speculation.

  16. Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

    Public Service Announcement. Papers fresh off the preprint servers re coronavirus treatment.

    meta-analysis: 19 earlier studies, before Raoult and Zelenko, all say about about 500mg/day of hydroxychloroquine for several days is good for you and bad for the virus.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.24.20042366v1

    (Zelenko and Korean doctors say to add zinc to the French protocol)

    Vitamin D and Quercetin suspected of helping against virus
    https://arxiv.org/abs/2003.13665

    Harmless inhalation (1-2 minutes) of heated whiskey vapors may kill SARS-type respiratory viruses in lungs:
    https://arxiv.org/abs/2003.12444
    author, a physics professor in Japan, claims ” Medical doctor and our research scientists, including me, are trying this method for four weeks, no side effects are reported, no one infected with corona virus till today”

    All these are low risk as prophylactics or treatment.

  17. notglowing says:

    No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the LORD. Deuteronomy 23:1

  18. Yul Bornhold says:

    Viktor Orban is now dictator of Hungary. All the progressives are tearing out their hair over this not being ‘democratic’ although it has happened entirely in accordance with the formal system of elected representatives.

    • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

      The US election is already a distant memory, and the DNC will fight hard to prevent it from returning in any recognizable form, because virus.

    • BC says:

      King Orban the First feels good on the lips.

  19. maxxx foot says:

    https://twitter.com/RomneySmith/status/1242508055494918144

    but under socialism we might have bread lines

    • jim says:

      That is socialism. The State Government is using the crisis as an excuse for giving out “free” food.

      Which, should it continue, is likely to result in being unable to obtain food at all, for the food has to come from somewhere. The government does not magically create it, and when the government takes over one part of food distribution, it finds it has to take over the whole system, which invariably proves to be beyond its capability.

      Another solution is a colony in Africa, largely run by American blacks. Move the best blacks there to run it, and the problem blacks there under their authority – the segregation solution with a lot more distance.

  20. The Cominator says:

    Jim please give us your take on Trump (in what I think is a suicidal decision unless he reverses course) extending social distancing. I really don’t think he gets reelected if he extends this past mid April…

    Also what is the best country for a reactionary autist with some money to flee too…

    • jim says:

      At some point, probably late April, Trump is going to declare the crisis over, thanks largely to the widespread use of hydroxychloroquine. The stock market will recover, thanks largely to a massive injection of funny money, and the election will be done and dusted before the consequences of issuing so much funny money become apparent.

      • BC says:

        FDA just legalized the use hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19. This gets around the Dem governors banning it.

      • The Cominator says:

        Well inflation would probably be a good thing overall with the exception that real estate won’t collapse.

        I did notice the FDA stopped dragging its feet on Cloraquine after Trump apparently caved… maybe they figured now that Trump has adopted a position that will doom himself they didn’t need to drag their feet.

        https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/29/fda-emergency-authorization-anti-malaria-drug-155095

        Maybe he quickly pulls a bait and switch… but he has to do it quick. Throwing inflationary funny money isn’t bad if you restart the economy quickly… doing it while you destroy the economy (ala Venezuala and the former Rhodesia) have very predictable consequences though. But unless he pushes hard for reopenings by mid April he is doomed…

        • Mike says:

          You can’t flee anywhere because everyone else has shutdown their country due to the virus which you still somehow believe does not deserve shutting down society even though everyone else has done it.

          • The Cominator says:

            The fleeing would be after this meme pandemic is over, i don’t care about the hysteria its still fake and gay.

          • yewotm8 says:

            “Everybody else” also insists that the world will end soon due to rising global temperatures. The only thing we can do about it requires us to massively slow down our own productivity, because no amount of money is worth it, just in case.

            I see no difference between virus hysteria and warming hysteria.

            • jim says:

              Trump is surrounded by people telling him it will kill a hundred thousand or so.

              Trump, however, bypassed the medical establishment and is working directly with the private sector. We should very soon see results – I expect that the peak death rate was last Sunday, but they are telling him that the peak will be in two weeks.

              If the peak death rate was last Sunday, I hope he does a victory dance when re-opening America for business.

              • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                Imminent death total 5-6000 or less, followed by (media-ignored) downward revision in the summer when actuarial studies calculate excess deaths due to various causes and re-allocate causation away from the coronavirus in a substantial proportion of cases.

              • Pooch says:

                What is the motivation for the absurdly high death predictions by the medical establishment? Was it a plan to fuck Trump from day 1? Likewise, in Britain, to destroy Boris?

                Or were/are they (the medical establishment) genuinely concerned for the safety of the populace, whose predictions the Left has opportunistically used to try to fuck Trump?

                • jim says:

                  > What is the motivation for the absurdly high death predictions by the medical establishment?

                  There is legitimate uncertainty about the likely death rate, and, as with Global Warming, people expect and intend that a crisis, real or imaginary, can and will be used to implement leftism and socialism, so enthusiastically make predictions at the high end, and far beyond the high end. The Democrats expected and intended that the crisis would result in a massive expansion of centralized power, and were and are shocked and dismayed to see that it has expanded the power of the president, who promptly used the sudden rush of power, the power of the president, to diminish the power of the presidency, to cut his dangerously mighty servants down to size.

                  I recently watched a video analyzing Nancy Pelosi’s body language. She is shell shocked by the way the crisis has unfolded. This was utterly not what they expected. They passionately wanted and hoped for a mighty crisis for a mighty expansion of the power of the swamp, but the crisis that they eagerly desired has blown up in their faces.

                  They keep calling for healthcare and everything vaguely connected to healthcare to be nationalized as a crisis emergency measure, but Trump is instead denationalizing healthcare and everything vaguely connected to healthcare as a crisis emergency emergency. The CDC, FEMA, and the FDA expected a massive expansion in their powers, which expansion would inevitably become irreversible and permanent, got massive cuts in their powers, that they piously pray will not become irreversible and permanent.

                  Trump truthfully says he is mobilizing the private sector to address the crisis – but in the process he is empowering the private sector. The Democrats and the legacy media keep calling for a very different kind of mobilization.

                  You see at the crisis press briefings, Trump’s overly mighty servants saying this rollback in their power is a temporary crisis measure, emphasizing “temporary”. You will notice Trump at these press briefings fails to say anything about “temporary”. Hence Nancy Pelosi’s shell shocked body language.

                  A New York hospital makes unreasonable demands for masks. It might be reselling the masks out the back door, but more likely it is just hiding the masks in an effort to permanently grab coercive power over its suppliers. The supplier complains to his buddy Trump, and Trump asks “what the hell is happening to all those masks?”

                  The plan was that there would be moral outrage over the private sector’s inability to supply adequate masks, and instead Trump is promoting mask re-use and asking “what is happening to all those masks?”

                • pdimov says:

                  The predictions weren’t absurdly high. The formula is simple: (1 – 1/R0) * CFR, where 1 – 1/R0 is the fraction of the population that will become infected, and CFR is the case fatality rate.

                  Flu: R0=1.4, CFR=0.1%. Total deaths: 286 per million.
                  SARS 2.0: R0=2-4, CFR: 1-10%. Total deaths: 5000-75000 per million.

                  At the moment, mortality is 4% in China, 11% in Italy, 0.9% in Germany, 6% in the UK, 1.7% in the US. I wouldn’t put much hope on the Germany/US numbers though. Deaths lag cases by 1-2 weeks, up to a month in countries which can keep people alive for longer.

                • jim says:

                  > Deaths lag cases by 1-2 weeks, up to a month in countries which can keep people alive for longer.

                  It appears that no countries can keep people alive for longer. Oxygen can keep you alive when you would otherwise die of Wu Flu, and if demand for oxygen masks outstrips supply, that will substantially increase the death rate, but it looks like forcing oxygen down the throat of the heavily tranquilized victim with a ventilation machine does little good. The secret crisis of ICU is not that it is swamped by China virus, but that ICU is useless against China virus. You would be better off giving each patient who is having difficulty breathing an oxygen tank and leaving him in a regular hospital room to breath under his own power. Ventilation machines are not a treatment, they are merely priestly last rites. In the vast majority of cases, the patient dies in twelve hours after he is assigned to ventilation machine because his oximeter has been beeping the alarm. Pretty soon it is going to be beeping the alarm again. Assigning patients to ventilation machines before their oximeter beeps the alarm is counterproductive. The priest is reading your last rites prematurely. Efforts to expand the supply of ventilation machines so that ICU can handle more people are going to increase, not decrease, the death rate, because more priests will be reading more death rites.

                  Sometimes additional oxygen for someone who is having trouble breathing results in excessive carbon dioxide levels in the blood, but it seem this not a problem with Wu Flu. Oxygen works, the side effects of additional oxygen seldom happen, forced oxygen ventilation, however, fails. The big Wu Flu crisis is that the ICU priesthood loses its superior priestly status, since any random nurse, or any competent patient, can administer oxygen. Even though oxygen supplementation can cause nasty side effects if you are on it too much for too long, nobody is voluntarily on it too much or too long, and you can get oxygen without a prescription, and administer it without a license.

                  The big Wu Flu crisis is that the high holy priesthood of ICU is leaking status. Oxygen masks are nurse gear, therefore low status, ventilators are high holy status. That is the big crisis. It is not a critical shortage of high holy gear, it is a critical embarrassing failure of high holy gear to do any good.

                  Ventilation works in the minority of cases where the China virus affects the patients mind so that he forgets to breath, but if the patient is breathing like mad and it is not doing him much good, putting him on a machine to breath for him does not help much.

                • Pooch says:

                  Actual and true CFR is going to end up being much lower then 1% because a large proportion of positive cases are asymptomatic and thus not tested.

                • Mike says:

                  Well if you’re right that the ventilators aren’t actually that effective, and are merely the result of status-signaling, then why is Trump pushing so hard for the private sector to mass-produce them? Just trying to blow off the priests or is he being genuine?

                • jim says:

                  The Democrats want to milk the crisis to take state control of private sector production of ventilators. Better to push like mad for genuinely private production of ventilators.

                  He is also accommodating the high holy priesthood to avoid getting more resistance than he is already getting. The wind is blowing his way, might as well throw them a biscuit. His big enemies are the FDA and CDC. Don’t take on all your enemies at the same time.

                • pdimov says:

                  >Actual and true CFR is going to end up being much lower then 1% because a large proportion of positive cases are asymptomatic and thus not tested.

                  I see no basis for this claim. It’s wishful thinking. South Korea is at 1.7%, and I don’t think anyone accuses them of undertesting. China just declared their asymptomatic cases at 40,000, which is half of their current symptomatic count of 82545. Diamond Princess is at 1%.

                  The UK predicted deaths at 260K were a bit too low, not absurdly high.

                • Pooch says:

                  https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/03/30/health/coronavirus-lower-death-rate/index.html

                  The study states a 0.66 death rate but I suspect it’s lower still, probably more in line with swine flu (0.3 or so). Diamond Princess was all age 60+.

                  260k for U.K.? It’s at 1789 so that virus better get to movin.

                • Pooch says:

                  That is to say it’s still much more deadly then the common flu. I am definitely not looking forward to having swine flu or coronavirus.

                • Pooch says:

                  It’s wishful thinking to think all positive cases are tested or to take Chinas numbers as gospel. They don’t even test in areas that have no deaths. Brix and Fauci just spent an hour tonight saying the only way to know the true death rate is to take an antibody sample from the population.

                • pdimov says:

                  Diamond Princess was not all 60+, although the average age was 58.

                  https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.05.20031773v2.full.pdf

                • pdimov says:

                  0.66% gives you 224-336K for UK, which is exactly as predicted.

                  As for “it better get moving”, the prediction assumes no preventative measures such as lockdowns and masks, which decrease R0. (As the original UK plan was to do nothing and acquire “herd immunity.”)

                • Cloudswrest says:

                  If one’s lungs are compromised, I’ve often wondered if, under the right conditions, it would be possible to breath through your skin like a frog. Obviously a human can’t breath through their skin under normal atmospheric conditions, but how about hyperbaric oxygen at 10, 20, 50? atmospheres? You would need a full face mask or helmet with heliox with oxygen at much lower partial pressure to protect your lungs, eyes and other mucus membranes. With Covid exhalation of CO2 doesn’t appear to be a problem. Also is human tissue stable at such external oxygen pressures? Will a static spark ignite you and cause you to spontaneously combust? How about in a aqueous or saline immersion?

                • jim says:

                  Not enough blood circulating through the skin. And if you super oxygenated the skin to far above normal levels for very long, it would die.

                  Despite three billion years of evolution, oxygen is still toxic in high concentration. One bar of oxygen will have harmful effects over a few days, and oxygen masks are designed to provide less than 100% oxygen. Several bar causes damage very quickly.

                • Mike in Boston says:

                  Jim,

                  In the vast majority of cases, the patient dies in twelve hours after he is assigned to ventilation machine because his oximeter has been beeping the alarm.

                  The only hard numbers I have seen on survival of mechanically ventilated patients are from the March 27th UK ICNARC report, which reports that “only” about two-thirds of those put on a ventilator died, with one-third surviving to discharge from the ICU. It was a small sample of about a hundred patients. Do you have better sources than I do, or are you just using “vast majority” differently than I would?

                • jim says:

                  The number I read was one in seven surviving in China.

                  The survival rate is likely to vary depending on your preconditions for putting someone on mechanical ventilation.

                  Two thirds dying is the majority, six sevenths is the vast majority.

                  If any survived it is not evidence that the mechanical ventilation did any good even in one case, since not everyone put on a mechanical ventilator would have needed to be put on a mechanical ventilator. Maybe it helps a minority, and not a very large minority, but the evidence that it helps non existent, while the evidence that hydroxychloroquine helps is overwhelming. Different evidence standards are applied to high status and low status treatments.

                  Maybe it helps in few cases, we do not know. We do know it does not help, or even significantly prolong survival, in most cases. The FDAs vital concern with evidence based medicine is strangely selective.

                • Mike in Boston says:

                  Thanks, Jim. That six-sevenths number, certainly a vast majority, is sobering.

                  In a sane society, it would be easy to get a hold of legal plaquenil to take prophylactically, blue state governors be damned. Since that is a coup-complete problem, I find myself wishing for a cryptocurrency black market reliable enough that I could be assured the plaquenil I buy is not actually placebo, or strychnine.

                • Pooch says:

                  0.66% gives you 224-336K for UK, which is exactly as predicted.

                  There is not much convincing evidence that China flu is any more or less infectious then previous airborne viruses and flus. This is why we are calling it a flu. Extrapolating areas of the highest infection rates and deaths (Wuhan and Lombardy) just does not support the extremely high death predictions. As Jim says, they are making “predictions at the high end, and far beyond the high end.”

                  I noticed an interesting thing yesterday at Trump’s briefing. By letting the doctors blather on about the absurdly high 2 million lives lost number with no intervention, Trump can and did claim credit for saving “2 million lives” even if it’s completely unsubstantiated. Well played.

                • Dave says:

                  In a sane society, it would be easy to get a hold of legal plaquenil

                  But we live in a society where people hoard toilet paper. Every store in the UK has been cleaned out of Tylenol. How long would plaquenil stay on the shelves if it were freely available?

                • Mike in Boston says:

                  The number I read was one in seven surviving in China

                  And a New Jersey emergency room doc writes that the mortality rate for patients on ventilators is 80% to 90%. So much nearer the numbers you saw from China than the ones I saw from the UK.

                • Not Tom says:

                  Ironically, I believe ramping up supply and deployment of ventilators would actually appear to improve the effectiveness of ventilators, because there would be more patients who do not really need the ventilators being put on ventilators, thus increasing the apparent survival rate.

                  I’m not entirely convinced that this is deliberate; I’ve perused a number of message boards where the medical professionals talk to each other and in general it looks as though they all want real solutions, they’re not speaking in code (well, aside from the incomprehensible medical jargon – but not the conspiratorial kind of code).

                  It’s more the superset of the placebo effect, which I don’t think has a formal name, so I’ll just call it the snake-oil effect: the apparent effectiveness of a cure is intrinsically tied to the number of users who were either never very ill or would have gotten better on their own. And it’s just as easy to make this mistake accidentally, through “data-driven” statistical approaches, as it is deliberately through the promotion and sale of snake oil.

                  From what I glean, the major issue with oxygen therapy is not that it doesn’t work, but that all available types of that therapy are highly efficient at aerosolizing the virus and dramatically increasing the risk to hospital personnel. That’s technically a solvable problem (isolation) but practically isn’t (space/cost) for most hospitals.

                  The eternal optimist in me wonders if this might convince some hospitals how to stop being gigantic disease incubators and permanently implement proper containment systems, but the much louder cynic says that it is just too difficult and too expensive for our already bloated bureaucracy.

                • pdimov says:

                  Pooch may turn out to be right, at least for Germany.

                  “Preliminary results: About 14% of people tested had a pre-existing immunity to SARS-CoV-2 in the form of plasma IgG titers to viral antigen (specificity of the method is >99%). RT-PCR testing revealed that about 2% of those tested had an ongoing SARS-CoV-2 infection. About 15% of those tested had either a current or a resolved SARS-CoV-2 infection. Based on this data, the Case Fatality Rate for the community of Gangelt is about 0.37%.”

                  From a comment at

                  https://www.unz.com/isteve/german-scientists-virus-is-spread-less-by-work-than-by-fun/

            • Mike says:

              @yewotm8

              When I refer to “everyone else” I am mainly focusing on non-cucked countries or not as cucked countries like China, Russia, Singapore, and maybe Hungary or Poland. Who are also completely shutting down their borders and certain sectors of their economy. If Putin is doing it, doesn’t that mean we should too?

            • pdimov says:

              There are differences. First, warming doesn’t exist, but the virus does. Second, CO2 is global so “everyone else” is in a position to insist you do things. But what you do in your own country (as long as you stay there) does not affect other countries, so “everyone else” doesn’t care.

              So you can be Sweden if you so like. Everyone else will appreciate the instructive example.

              https://twitter.com/cmhrrs/status/1244710002251763716

        • jim says:

          Trump had already mobilized the private sector to ship thirty million doses of hydroxychlorquine to the hospitals, hospital bureaucracy be damned, a truck is going to show up at their delivery door full of meds, ordered or not, ready or not. What are you going to do? Turn it around? Hide it in the basement?

          Maybe some of them will. Maybe a lot of them will. But if they do, doctors and patients are going to say “gimmee”, and it is going to get ugly.

          Similarly, they have been slow walking masks and gowns, and Trump has called for investigation into that, implying that they are slow walking them for resale on the black market. Whether they were slow walking them for the black market, or slow walking them so that Trump could be blamed, Trump is lighting a fire under them. And if they slow walk the hydroxychloroquine that is being delivered right now, he will be lighting another fire soon enough.

          He is now talking some time after Easter to ease up on the lockdown of the economy. The number of daily deaths, which was growing exponentially, has fallen slightly. In a week, will have fallen considerably. At which point he can declare victory and get out. Probably April 14, April 20.

          Since new cases continue to grow exponentially, the change in death rate is probably hyroxychloroquine hitting the hospitals. If so, we should see the impact by Thursday.

          • BC says:

            They’re also slow walking hydroxychlorquine by only treating people with it after their lungs have already been shredded by the virus. At a that point antibiotics become more important that general viral load. Hydroxychlorquine needs to be used early.

            • Mister Grumpus says:

              Some minority of doctors will defy, prescribe it earlier rather than later, and then their patients will tell their family and friends about how they got better.

              Those friends and acquaintances who had lost someone to three miserable weeks of Big-Bucks-Itrol (or whatever) will… have something to say to their friends and family also.

              (…I hope.)

            • FrankNorman says:

              They are deliberately letting people die in order to try to pin the blame on Trump?
              Sheesh.

              Okay, should not really be surprised given Democrats’ previous antics, like the relief supplies to Porto Rico that never got distributed, but the blatant evil is still shocking.

      • Dude says:

        How should one invest to mitigate the effects of so much funny money over the longer term? Real estate? Gold? Canned sandwiches? Will see see mass inflation? Stagflation? Deflation?

    • Pooch says:

      False.

      His approval rate is as high as its ever been. His support is strong because the American people on both sides of the aisle overwhelmingly view this as a real health crisis because it is. As Jim says, it’s a flu but it’s a deadlier flu. The total death count, whatever it is, is going to be on his watch so it’s in his interest to keep it from getting too high. He said at or under 100k would mean we did good. I agree with him over 100k dead is a bad look.

      Now of course the Left are going to slow walk supplies and meds to literally kills people and raise the death count to hurt Trump and prevent the economy from coming back. The cathedral is going to push the narritive that the virus will come back in the fall, etc so we must keep the economy closed indefinitely. The key is Trump has put a tangible end date in sight which indicates he is winning.

      • The Cominator says:

        Its probably deadlier than the flu but also probably less contangious than the flu (if its as contangious as the flu than its in fact less deadly)… and there is an antiviral in Cloraquine. It was NEVER going to kill nearly 2.2 million people that is muh models absurdity.

        Trump’s approval rose when he tweeted reopen by Easter and when he started talking about cost-benefit of keeping things closed when the dems were pushing the closed forever line, its going to plummet now unless he reverses course.

        Nobody is going to care how few died when we are in a depression and people have lost everything… now it might be okay to be in a depression if the Democrats owned the depression… but Trump just took part ownership of a depression by backing off a quick reopening.

        OTOH old people dying WILL BE forgiven and forgotten. As Machiavelli says in the Prince children will get over you having their parents executed as long as you don’t confiscate their estates. Parents have a hard time getting over the deaths of their children, and men have a hard time when a woman they truly love dies… but this does NOT go in reverse and otherwise people move on real quick.

        • Steve Johnson says:

          Its probably deadlier than the flu but also probably less contangious than the flu

          You are a fucking moron.

          • The Cominator says:

            No you.

            1. If its as contagious as the flu that means the mild and asympomatic cases are MUCH higher than almost anyone thinks as recorded cases are nowhere near the # of flu cases.

            2. This would mean it kills LESS people percentagewis than the flu.

            So its either one or the other.

            • Steve Johnson says:

              The first American death was in February. The American death toll reached 1000 last Thursday and it reached 2000 on Sunday.

              It reached 3000 today.

              People who can do first year college math understand the implications. You do not.

              You are a fucking moron.

              • The Cominator says:

                Yeah yeah yeah exponential growth and muh models.

                The deaths are going to start leveling off soon because of cloraquine etc. The sickest people who got it already and were untreated took time to die.

                The death toll is going to be less than the seasonal flu.

                • alf says:

                  OK thats numbers we can work with.

                  What I find is:
                  2018 death toll influenza in the US: ~80.000.
                  Death toll sars-covid-2 so far in the US: ~3.100

                  Looking surprisingly good for Com actually.

                • pdimov says:

                  2018 flu was without any preventative measures such as lockdowns. (But maybe with a vaccine. I don’t know how many people in America vaccinate themselves against the flu, and how often against the correct strain.)

                  SARS 2.0 without lockdowns would have beaten 80K easily.

              • jim says:

                China flu was growing exponentially until last Saturday. It has been growing exponentially for several weeks. It was expected to grow exponentially for some time to come. If it had continued growing for two more weeks, would have been about one hundred thousand deaths. In this sense, The Cominator is an idiot.

                It looks like we turned the corner last Sunday, 2020-03-28, in which case it will have been no big deal at all, an utterly insignificant addition to the numerous other flues already circulating, just another flu among far too many, deadlier than most, but still no big deal. In this sense, The Cominator is correct prescient, and accurate, as he often is.

                It was scary because it was killing a lot more people than usual, and we had no treatment for it. People who merely needed additional oxygen generally lived, though an alarming number of people needed additional oxygen. People who got to the point where they needed ICU ventilators to force them to breath, almost always died, ventilator or no ventilator. It turned out that intensive care units being overwhelmed and a shortage of ventilators made very little difference, because intensive care helps very little. (It seldom helps, except in cases of a healthy man with severe traumatic injury)

                We were thinking that intensive care units being overwhelmed, which normally does not happen when a nasty flu circulates, would be a crisis. They were indeed overwhelmed, but it turned out to be no crisis. If you reach the point where you genuinely need an intensive care unit, better off making your peace with God. If you are having trouble breathing due to China virus, oxygen helps, but forcing oxygen down your throat with a ventilator is unlikely to help.

                It was genuinely scary. But now we have hydroxychloroquine, the scariness should go away.

                • Steve Johnson says:

                  But now we have hydroxychloroquine, the scariness should go away.

                  That’s absolutely correct and Cominator will end up correct in conclusion but absolutely wrong in the specifics. It is extremely contagious (exponential growth with a doubling time of about 2 or 3 days barring extraordinary measures that the entire west doesn’t have the state capacity to take) and between 10 and 50 times as deadly as the flu. His argument was that neither of those was true – not that there’d be a miracle cure.

                  Also it’s not certain that the Cathedral will be unsuccessful in suppressing the cure; certainly they’re still trying.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Even without hydroxychloroquine (which I mentioned here early though pdimov beat me and it figured into my view) given the number of cases it cannot be both more contagious and more deadly than the flu for reasons I described but just so you don’t keep insisting you’re right I’ll go through again.

                  Corona-chan is perhaps under very specific conditions of climate and population density more contagious then the flu (urban places with many people all touching the same surfaces and in airplanes and in cruises with buffets) but if it was more contagious than the flu in general you’d see far more recorded cases worldwide. Social distancing (which Japan isn’t doing much of just observing their usual extreme sanitation) or not you’d see more cases.

                  Now perhaps you can argue okay… that there are tons and tons of unrecorded cases far more than anyone thinks, more than 10 to 1. And okay maybe there are (but South Korea suggests probably not) but if so it would be less deadly on average than the flu.

                  So once again Corona-chan can be more deadly than the flu if untreated (probably true) or more contangious (probably false, very special conditions of mass touching of surfaces in certain climates exceped) but NOT both.

                  So while in some ways I’m a sperg idiot I’m not wrong here.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  > Cathedral … suppressing the cure; certainly they’re still trying.

                  The entire rest of the world is scrambling to do, at a minimum, the French protocol (Dr Raoult). Korea, like Dr Zelenko, added zinc and they had the best national-level results. FDA has caved and allows the French method for those with a positive test result. Which means all but the lowest-information patients will be demanding the Zelenko protocol for anyone at risk or with so much as a cold.

                  Cuomo can kill off the people in AoC’s district and people too old and alone to read the internet, but that’s about it.

              • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                > 1000 last Thursday … 2000 on Sunday. … 3000 today.

                No. First of all this is not the beginning of exponential growth, it is the first half of a sigmoid curve, logistic growth (in ideal circumstances for the virus to propagate). It looks like we hit the inflection point, so the default estimate of the ultimate number of deaths is double the current total. That’s without taking into account the probable success of social isolation measures in preventing newer cases, and the testing and treatment options available lately after most of the infections in New York already took place.

                The latest CDC number, which counts both confirmed and “presumptive” cases (big fudge there) is 2400. “Will eventually be confirmed” is a lower number, which is higher than the excess mortality, which is higher than the excess mortality due to respiratory problems (pneumonia), which is higher than the excess respiratory mortality attributable to coronavirus. The people dying who have CV19 also have major preexisting conditions and if CV19 is a contributing factor it should be credited in the statistics in some sort of inverse proportion to the pre-existing risks, such as weighing someone with 3 major conditions including coronavirus as 1/3 of a CV death. These are old and frail people to begin with so would be further downweighted in the more precise actuarial numbers like mortality acceleration. Cominator, and some of Jim’s early assessments, were essentially correct that this is hyped to a level best described as deliberate panic-inducing bullshit.

                The Cathedral as embodied in Rod Rosenstein’s sister, Doctor Nancy Messonier who heads the relevant part of CDC, decided a couple of weeks ago to stop distinguishing “presumptive” cases (which outnumbered confirmed severalfold) because having a higher “confirmed” count sounds more panic-worthy. When the current wave is over and actuaries put out the more refined calculations using Confirmed numbers it will be a 1-2 order of magnitude deflation from bullshit estimates like 100000 dead.

                The Italian numbers are also inflated. Death rate overestimated by under-testing and asymptomatic carriers, and by attribution of any flu-like or respiratory deaths to coronavirus if the patient tested positive. Their rate, like China’s, is higher than other countries due to smog (in the North) and smoking; respiratory diseases were legion in both places before CV19.

        • Not Tom says:

          there is an antiviral in Cloraquine

          It’s spelled “chloroquine”, you nincompoop. And that matters here, because you keep spelling it that way despite it having been mentioned more than a dozen times in this thread alone – which demonstrates that you aren’t listening to what anyone else has to say, just repeating your silly narrative over and over again.

          The saddest part of all of this to me is that Trump has been acting heroically here, first by taking the issue seriously back in January when everyone else was downplaying it, shutting down international travel when the establishment was against it, and now running rings around the medical bureaucracy to get drugs and protective equipment into the supply chain, and because of people like you, his heroic efforts will largely go unrecognized even among his core supporters, because “it was never a big deal” and actually he really messed up a lot by “caving to the CDC” and other doomsayers.

          It’s a serious problem and we are taking important steps to fix it. The idea that the only solution is never-ending lockdown because we’ll have to deal with the second, third and seventeeth waves is obviously hysterical nonsense. The idea that it was never a serious problem and is milder than the flu is also flat-out wrong, and the proof is in the body count.

          (I’m sure you’re itching to reply with some nitwitted “but body count is still lower than the flu!” Yes, which flu, over what period of time, and with what containment measures?)

          • pdimov says:

            Trump jumped the gun on chloroquine, but that was a calculated risk, and it seems that he was right to do so.

            • Dude says:

              Or perhaps he didn’t so much as jump the gun, but fired it. Once he got it out there, do you think every medical professional in the country who hadn’t already heard about this didn’t start Googling?

            • Fred says:

              The real risk from the chloroquine tweet was not the science (that CQ/HCQ were effective against SARS is well-documented, and this virus is a different strain of the same species), but the inevitability of the cathedral’s absolutely feral full-court press against it.

              This whole chloroquine flap is actually a good case study in how the cathedral’s traditional ability to impose gleichschaltung on the world has decayed because of the internet. If this were 1990 (ie. no consumer internet), the press would have successfully suppressed the chloroquine thing worldwide, without a doubt. If this were 2000 (ie. internet yes, social media not yet)… I’d guess that the press _probably_ would have succeeded in coordinating global public opinion against chloroquine. If this were 2010 (social media here), I’d guess they probably wouldn’t have succeeded.

              2020? Not a chance. The cathedral put its 1990-tier global gleichschaltung playbook into action, and succeeded in convincing… American leftists.

              The entire world is prescribing CQ/HCQ and the only people who haven’t figured it out are Americans – and even then, only leftist Americans.

              In other words, Trump wasn’t just betting on the pharmaceutical efficacy of chloroquine – he was also betting that the traditional opinion-synchronisation mechanism of the left had broken down not only globally, but in the US as well.

              And he was right. Good bet, Donald.

            • Steve Johnson says:

              The latest I’m reading on twitter is that he didn’t jump the gun – that China knew about chlorquine and the phostphate and hydroxy- versions nearly from the start when lupus patients who were in hospitals never developed a single case (chlorquine / HCQ is used for treating lupus).

              Was CIA clueless about something widely reported in China? Likely. Did some one person in intelligence who found this piece of info out get it to Trump and that’s why he knew? Possible.

              • pdimov says:

                As I said in a comment under a previous post, China published about the effectiveness of choloroquine phosphate in February:

                https://www.shine.cn/news/nation/2002172234/

                and then recommended it in March:

                http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-03/06/c_138850726.htm

                Still, at the time Trump announced it as a miracle drug, things weren’t quite conclusive yet. Japan and Italy recommended different approaches at the time.

                (I noticed the lupus result too, on Twitter. But I didn’t know it at the time, and I doubt Trump did either.)

              • Mister Grumpus says:

                “…when lupus patients who were in hospitals never developed a single case (chlorquine / HCQ is used for treating lupus).”

                No kidding? Really? Please tell me you didn’t just, you know, embellish that.

                • pdimov says:

                  He didn’t. But I can’t find the supporting link, because all searches about lupus and coronavirus are contaminated with articles how lupus patients can’t acquire HCQ now because of shortages.

                • Mike in Boston says:

                  Please tell me you didn’t just, you know, embellish that.

                  I can’t find the original article in Chinese at the moment, but here is an unsourced crappy machine translation:

                  Hydroxychloroquine is… the basic drug for patients with systemic lupus erythematosus. In the early stage of the study group, through the clinical analysis of 178 patients with new coronavirus received by the [Wuhan University] hospital from December 2019, it was found that none of them was systemic lupus erythematosus. After that, in the consultation of 80 patients with systemic lupus erythematosus treated by dermatology department of the hospital, it was found that they were not infected with new coronavirus pneumonia.

                • chedolf says:

                  “Clinical information has also emerged from Covid treatment. During the initial Chinese outbreak, Wuhan doctors observed that patients with lupus—a disease for which HC is a common treatment—did not seem to develop Covid-19. Of 178 hospital patients who tested positive, none had lupus and none were on HC. None of this Wuhan hospital’s dermatology department’s 80 lupus patients were infected with the novel coronavirus. The Wuhan doctors hypothesized that this may be due to long-term use of HC.”

                  https://www.wsj.com/articles/an-update-on-the-coronavirus-treatment-11585509827

              • Pooch says:

                Musk was tweeting heavily about chloroquine before Trump mentioned it. Betting on the recommendations of smart people are often good bets.

          • a crocodile's tear says:

            It’s spelled “chloroquine”, you nincompoop. And that matters here, because you keep spelling it that way despite it having been mentioned more than a dozen times in this thread alone – which demonstrates that you aren’t listening to what anyone else has to say, just repeating your silly narrative over and over again.

            “Cases of dysgraphia in adults generally occur after some neurological trauma or it might be diagnosed in a person with autism, Asperger’s Syndrome, Tourette syndrome or ADHD.” [1]

          • The Cominator says:

            You are bringing up muh spelling because I was 100% right on this meme “pandemic”. Just admit you were wrong.

            I’m not mad at Trump him for cutting off travel from China in January of course he was right to do that, I’m not mad at him for doing the initial 15 days because he had no choice and was between the devil and the deep sea.

            But extending the closures and not calling for a reopening now is a catastrophic suicidal blunder of biblical proportions, he can still save himself but he doesn’t have much time. If he doesn’t get back to “reopen by Easter” he is going to own a large portion of the economic damage and that is going to be the end of him. Biden’s senility and stupidity is not going to save him either as Biden either is not going to be the nominee or he is going to resign from the top of the ticket in favor of his VP shortly after the convention. Trump is not going to be so immune to the constant full court press of orange man bad when the economy sucks.

            • jim says:

              > But extending the closures and not calling for a reopening now is a catastrophic suicidal blunder of biblical proportions.

              His concern was that all his terribly expert extremely holy experts might be right – or might make damn sure that they were right.

              He sent a naval hospital ship to New York to address the artificial shortage of hospital beds, and they tried to block it so that they could have a hospital crisis, and prematurely announced that it had been blocked.

              If he prematurely or “prematurely” announces an end to crisis, every death thereafter will be blamed on his greed, and every shortage manufactured by stacking supplies in warehouses will be blamed on him, as happened in Puerto Rico.

              • The Cominator says:

                So what should be done. Its better to own some extra old urban boomers dying than a depression and lots of small business failures.

                • jim says:

                  I can’t predict, I doubt Trump can predict, and I absolutely certain the medical people around him, blinded by their own superior holiness, can’t predict the course of this pandemic. But I expect that in retrospect, the peak will be seen to have been Sunday, and reopening America for business on April twelve would save the economy, without creating excuses to say “Orange man bad.”

                  But in his speech, he said that the guidelines would be renewed two weeks into April, and would likely continue to the end of April, which is going to have large adverse effect on the economy.

                  Trump now has emergency power over the fed, which I doubt he is going to relinquish. Expect, therefore, a rapid recovery leading into the election. The fed has long been a thorn in his side.

                  During the crisis, the reflexive obstruction to Bad Orange Man collapsed. Efforts to obstruct were casually brushed away. Trump was able to get away with exercising the immense powers of the presidency. The holdouts, still trying to stop not-my-president from doing anything presidential, got rolled and rolled hard, as in the attempt to delay the hospital ship from docking in New York Harbor for four weeks.

                  The Democrats expected to milk the crisis, but instead Trump is milking it.

                  Returning to not-my-president Orange-Man-Bad is going to be difficult, because an enormous number of dead presidential powers over the presidency have been reactivated.

                  Normally a crisis is used to expand socialism. Trump is using it to roll back socialism. This is likely to substantially help the economy after america re-opens. Trump says “we shut down our country” … “We are going to build it back rapidly”. “We are going to bring the economy back. We are going to bring it back fast.” He is keeping his eye on the ball.

                  In the past, every crisis has advanced leftism and socialism, and Democrats thought that was simply the natural course of events. The reverse has happened this time. In a crisis people look for a leader. And this time we have a leader who is not in the enemy’s pocket.

                  The Democrats wanted a big crisis to expand socialism and leftism. But it is not at all unfolding as they envisaged.

                • BC says:

                  In the past, every crisis has advanced leftism and socialism, and Democrats thought that was simply the natural course of events. The reverse has happened this time. In a crisis people look for a leader. And this time we have a leader who is not in the enemy’s pocket.

                  Jim cut right to the point I tried to make previously.

                  Cominator, we had an exchange earlier where I stated that how Trump responded to the crisis mattered more than the economy at the end of it. The economy stopped being a major factor in the election while Trump’s performance as a war time leader became the only fight that mattered. As long as the virus is contained and people feel safe and cared for by our leader Trump will be reelection just as FDR was during the middle of the great depression. Though with the full power of the Fed’s on Trump side, I expect the economy will be heading in a positive direction as well.

                  During the crisis, the reflexive obstruction to Bad Orange Man collapsed. Efforts to obstruct were casually brushed away. Trump was able to get away with exercising the immense powers of the presidency. The holdouts, still trying to stop not-my-president from doing anything presidential, got rolled and rolled hard, as in the attempt to delay the hospital ship from docking in New York Harbor for four weeks.

                  An outcome I never would have guessed possible.

                • The Cominator says:

                  FDR had the Cathedral (which was originated by Wilson and the original wave of anglo puritan progressives, not by him so its a mistake to think he created it he merely expanded it and it was already somewhat there when he got in) fully behind him. FDR also benefited from a very very hated predecessor in Hoover (who deserved it tbh).

                  The Cathedral media and institutions will NEVER accept Trump NEVER. Trump is an open heretic as far as their church goes. Its like expecting the Church of England clergy to be happy with James II or for the Catholic clergy in France to happy with Henry IV. No state churches HATE having an open heretic as head of state. This is the driving force behind Trump derangement syndrome.

                  The good economy was Trump’s armor against the constant chorus of orange man bad… the small businessmen supporters of him and tradesmen a good part of his base are going to feel totally betrayed if he doesn’t push for reopenings by mid April.

                  Now there is a very good chance Trump will pivot again soon… but if not he is not likely to survive.

                • BC says:

                  FDR had the Cathedral (which was originated by Wilson and the original wave of anglo puritan progressives, not by him so its a mistake to think he created it he merely expanded it and it was already somewhat there when he got in) fully behind him. FDR also benefited from a very very hated predecessor in Hoover (who deserved it tbh).

                  FDR won because people viewed him as a leader who cared about them.

                  The Cathedral media and institutions will NEVER accept Trump NEVER.

                  No shit, that’s why Trump went around them. That why these daily briefings have been so very useful to Trump because he bypassed the gate keepers and the gate keepers are looking horible in the way they attempt to question Trump.

              • Theshadowedknight says:

                Jim, can I have the links to this? I am beating on the leftists with this whole thing and it’s nice to have more ammo and a sharp stick to put in their eyes. The normies are looking for a port in a storm and I’d love to trumpet that the left is trying to close the ports, literally and metaphorically.

    • Fred says:

      I find it perplexing that anyone could infer the result of an election from (uhh) advice to maintain your distance from other people.

  21. The Cominator says:

    Trump caved to the panicmongers tonight and is extending CDC guidelines, bad news… Depression and good chance he loses the election now if the dems put in someone besides Biden.

    I suggest we all write the WH and tell him he needs to go back to his reopen by April.

  22. ERTZ says:

    >Relentless demonization of the Nazis works. Everyone remembers
    For most, but not for everybody.
    Sure, there is history taught in school, and there are anti-Nazi movies, even video games;
    those influence average people the most.

    Nazis become interesting for the youth because of those politically correct teachings, as a fashionable signaling device for revolt, defiance, mocking society; breaking a taboo signals courage.
    https://starsinformer.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Prince-Harry-Nazi-dress-up.jpg
    Some people, especially young, like to do specifically what they are told not to.

    Further, Nazis have an image of being strong, competent, ruthless.
    Nazi aesthetics is quite attractive – imperial, masculine, powerful.
    Even sexy – women are attracted by those masculine visuals, even gays.

    So, significant parts of the population have a more ironic disposition to Nazism – not just 4chan, but quite a lot of people secretly know they are racist, anti-diversity, anti-equality and know that those ideologies are lies – which shifts them towards sympathy with Nazism, they mix up Nazism with their anti-left, publicly hidden feelings.

    On an emotional level, all these work a bit in favor of Nazism, despite the demonization.

    Then there’s the ideology: Nationalism/tribalism/racism/militarism/eugenics.
    Two of the main victims of Nazism – Russians and Israelis – are today quite Nazi themselves.

    The perpetual propaganda against Nazis, of Holocaust remembrance, makes Nazis of course very salient – most of the people know very little,
    and what they know is from school/TV/media. What isn’t repeated there all the time becomes unknown, forgotten in the public mind.
    Average Joe knows more car brands than historic facts.

    Which is good and well, because Nazism is just another form of leftism – national leftism (National Socialism vs. International Socialism).
    It’s danger is that it can unite the right and most of the left in politics, producing majorities, and then take over power in elections,
    then ending democracy/rule of law/human rights/freedom – as it has happened in Germany.
    This justifies the anti-Nazi propaganda, because general leftism alone is rejected by a stable fraction of the population at all times;
    but Nazism has the dangerous potential to unite a large majority of voters and take over power.

    >no one remembers that the communists killed enormously more people
    Most really educated do know, and they are in positions of influence.
    A company director, media boss, military general, top politician etc. has much more influence than millions of people; what those elites know, and secretly believe, is critically important and makes all the difference.

    Anti-leftism done openly and directly is a PR-disaster, because it always superficially looks like oppression of the poor and weak, always looks evil to average people, who are naturally quite attracted to leftism because they feel themselves poor/oppressed/enslaved/exploited/envious of the rich, which makes attacks on leftism easily look like attacks on, say, the lower half of people in terms of worldly success.
    Leftism promises relive of their status humiliation, which is leftism’s strongest selling point.

    The truth that a free market, capitalism, meritocracy not only serve the few, but end up providing the highest standard of living especially to the “poor”, is almost impossible to democratically communicate to those poor, because of their cognitive limitations, and, very importantly, truthful complete explanation would explicitly humiliate those “poor” greatly, as their limitations would need to be clarified as causal elements of their lack of success.
    This is impossible in democracies for the same reason one cannot have totally honest politicians: Their complete honesty would humiliate a large part of the electorate, so they would never get many votes – the people falsely believe they’d want honest politicians – but they are themselves making them impossible.

    >Everyone believed Pol Pot was a saint
    Certainly not everyone. I’d guess if you asked a representative sample of Americans/Europeans, 80%+ would not even know who the guy was and what he did, 99.9%+ would be unable to explain why.

    I think you refer in your “everybody beliefs” statement to the phenomenon of public opinion, which is strongly determined by propaganda/opinion management, and NOT as such a leftist tool, but one of the government.
    That people have real, but secret, opinions and public ones (that can shift, even reverse, quickly with changing propaganda directives) is perfectly normal;
    if you want to have/keep/advance in many a job, you better heed political correctness – ESPECIALLY in many academic, non-STEM fields,
    because those “soft sciences” are influential towards public opinion – producing propaganda themselves (by producing – or not – currently politically useful or unwelcome research findings) – so they are under extra strict supervision of and government propaganda control.
    Science is today what religion was in the past – foundation of truth and justification for politics and power structure- so science is inherently political, and therefore needs to be tightly controlled by politics!
    As political requirements sometimes change abruptly because political goals and methods change abruptly, propaganda and then the politically correct opinions must change abruptly as well – and indeed, because the opposite may be “true” today than was yesterday, everybody conveniently and unembarrassingly forgets that he held the opposite public belief yesterday, therefore conveniently and unembarrassingly also forgetting about the fact that he is in such a weak and dependent position that he must switch beliefs as ordered by superiors.
    And, as explained above, having superficially some pro-leftist public beliefs – antiracism, equality, IQ does not matter and is not different between races ,etc. – may very well be government policy to keep leftism under control – or achieve some other, commendable, subtle political effect.

  23. ERTZ says:

    I think you are a bit on the wrong track.
    If I were in power, I would do most things as they are done now.

    For example,
    I would use public and secret government resources to protect and encourage leftists,
    especially in education (“Harvard”).
    I would make sure they feel safe, and try to indoctrinate the young – the safer and more supported/protected they feel,
    the more overconfident they will become, the more open they will be leftist and crazy, the more unfair they will treat
    students who seem not pro-leftist, the more they will come out of hiding!

    I would do this to make sure leftists never ever get true power.

    This is how I think it works:

    It’s sub-optimal to openly indoctrinate the young into anti-leftist beliefs.
    If they are told in class how evil leftists are, hear about communist mass murders and the dysfunctional incentives of the socialist economy, are made to write essays about leftists’ atrocities etc., this will NOT simply produce true anti-leftist beliefs in students;
    instead, lefties will become “cool”, that is, high status in the young population, because exactly not doing and believing as they are ordered to is a typical trait of the youth;
    they seek defiance of the older generations, they seek to mock their teachings.

    By allowing, even supporting, leftists to try to indoctrinate students, and publicly somewhat hiding the evils of leftism, two groups will result:

    1.
    Those who are stupid and cannot think for themselves, and who will believe the lies. They are leftists to begin with,
    or will just believe what they are told – these people will usually not amount to much in life, and can be ignored.
    Probably they can serve as living examples for some others to demonstrate the evil and craziness of leftism.

    2.
    Those who are smart and can think for themselves will gather their own information – those will be disgusted at the leftist lies, all the more as they have figured it out “by themselves” (it is secretly made sure they will find material to learn the truth if they seek it – dissipated all over the net, libraries etc.).
    Humans value information and insights they have worked for or figured out themselves as more significant and valuable, it more strongly becomes the basis for their beliefs.
    Realizing they have been lied to, manipulated, by their leftist teachers, they will grow distrustful and hateful of leftism and leftists in general and for the rest of their lives.
    This is highly significant, because mostly only this group – the really smart students – will make it into positions of power and influence in the future, therefore fortifying the higher rungs of society with anti-leftism.

    By pushing leftists and leftism into education, by half-heartedly making leftism politically correct, by providing information subtly so that students may learn the truth, the defiance instinct of the youth is exploited to produce hatred of leftism in those who would not develop such a hatred on their own.

    Promoting leftism is a method to vaccinate future functional elites against leftism.

    That they are expected to publicly keep quiet about the evils of leftism, that they are forced to resent leftism and leftists in secret, makes their disgust/hostility to it even fiercer, adding to their ideological vaccination’s power.

    Leftism cannot be fought openly – it would look like oppression, unfairness, “fascism” – all the things the left tells us are true would for most people look all the more true.
    Instead, leftists must be fought by making them into useful idiots for their own self-sabotage.

    Another example:
    If one keeps leftist politicians that are charismatic and talented out of politics by force – by oppressing them,
    killing them, having them more often health issues and accidents than seems statistically normal – we would strengthen them in public opinion.
    Instead, it is made sure that the most crazy, incompetent and perhaps uncharismatic leftists rise to the top spots of their political parties and organizations:
    Killing/crippling prospective talented leftist political talents would be illegal, more importantly it would look bad publicly;
    but instead using all the secret resources of the state to SUPPORT exactly the worst personnel of the left to rise into prominence is a subtler, much more efficient way to sabotage leftists and leftism as a whole:
    The public will then easily be able to see and learn of the incompetence and evilness of leftists themselves, shifting the population reliably against them.
    I think it very probable this strategy is used in Western societies to sabotage the left;
    examples include
    US-
    the Squad: Ocasio-Cortez, Omar, Pressley and Tlaib;
    Maxine Waters;
    UK- Diane Abbott
    Germany – Claudia Roth

    All these politicians have not only a rich history of embarrassing themselves by their actions and statements (failure at simple math, revealing lack of basic knowledge, etc.), but more importantly they create disgust in unresolved voters against the left, by openly revealing what they are and want through their sheer incompetence.

    • jim says:

      Nuts

      Relentless demonization of the Nazis works. Everyone remembers that they killed a lot Jews, no one remembers that the communists killed enormously more people, among them more Jews than the Nazis killed.

      Everyone believed Pol Pot was a saint, and when they switched overnight to believing him a demon, they also switched to believing he had been installed in power by Ronald Reagan.

      The bloodbath and hordes of refugees that followed the fall of Vietnam instantly went down the memory hole.

      Indoctrination into high status beliefs quite obviously works.

      People believe what they are damn well told by high status authority, even if, as with women in the workplace and higher education, it flatly contradicts what they see in front of their noses.

    • Anonymous Fake says:

      [*deleted*]

      • jim says:

        Deleted for presupposing facts for which no evidence is presented, as if they were uncontroversial and universally accepted. You deduce socialism, not even National Socialism, but socialism, from a far left account of economic events.

        You are going to have to argue and defend, rather than presuppose and assume, premises that are unlikely to be accepted by anyone to the right of Mitt Romney.

        And if you are going to persuade the right of socialism, you would have better luck starting from Mussolini’s critique of capitalism than Marx’s.

        • Anonymous Fake says:

          Real estate speculation doesn’t just corrupt the schools. It segregates (which is often whitewashed by black people as redlining) conservatives away from the most important cities where all of the productive and powerful government and corporate jobs are located. Conservatives live in sprawling subdivisions where they can afford to have families, while liberals live in expensive cities that pay very well if you don’t have kids to worry about.

          This isn’t natural. The conservatives are dispossessed of key administrative careers because they are stuck in “muh free market” subdivisions, while liberals simply seize every elite enterprise by default because they’re the local work force.

          The point about socializing housing is that it’s easier to do, being a strictly financial fraud to bid up housing costs with banker bucks, than to convince conservatives to stop living in traffic packed sprawl and start building cities that elites want to live in. Trying to escape cities ultimately doesn’t even work because the children are always going to be taught whatever prestige real estate wants them to be taught.

          Real estate is a euphemism for population control, and the controllers are a separate (((population))), not the sheeple. The universities have nothing on the physical and psychological manipulation of real estate elites. Most students are damaged goods long before they ever get into academia, and the ones who are just doing what they’re told aren’t the bad guys. They’re the victims of the Cathedral, not the first cause of it.

          • jim says:

            > Real estate speculation doesn’t just corrupt the schools. It segregates (which is often whitewashed by black people as redlining

            We are in favor of segregation. Everyone is in favor of segregation, just as everyone is in favor of traditional sex roles, and not even gays can put up with gays. Observe what happens in the school cafeteria. People spontaneously segregate by race and ethnicity. Diversity plus proximity equals war.

            People’s opposition to segregation, like their opposition to traditional sex roles, is piety, not inwardly felt or desired. Women are always searching for a man who can subdue them, and not finding him, and men are always searching for a place they can feel at home, where a black will not force his way into his house while he is away and his wife and kids are at home.

            A big problem is that talented blacks make money, and immediately flee other blacks, because of crime and violence. We need to force them to stick with their own people (involuntary segregation, Jim Crow) and give them power and authority – make them judges and cops, and make sure those judges and cops lean in on the side of the black married middle class, as was done during segregation, where the South created black universities to create a black middle and upper class to rule blacks for them. We need those black universities back again. Black people who are being groomed for middle class and upper class roles should not have to compete with white people in white people stuff. It is tougher on them than it is on the white students.

            Observe all those anti segregation lefties, while they integrate schools in flyover country at bayonet point, send their children to extremely expensive schools that are free from blacks, so that their sons will not be beaten up and their daughters gang banged. Everyone wants segregation in his own life, he just wants to impose it on his inferiors to destroy their status, thereby establishing his own superior status.

            Even affluent law abiding blacks would like to be near affluent law abiding blacks, rather than affluent law abiding whites. Trouble is, affluent blacks are not in fact law abiding, and their children considerably less law abiding, so they cannot get what they desire.

            A black college professor, unable to match his white colleague in a discussion using words, is apt to revert to sucker punching him. Even elite blacks do not want to be part of a predominantly white elite. They want to be part of a black elite, which is why they wind up wanting to get rid of the white elite, which is a substantial cause of our elite’s incohesion. If the diversities get the upper hand, Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden are off to the death camps. The diversities just don’t like them being around, just as black students at the black table in the school cafeteria just don’t like the white students being around.

            Segregation selected its black elite both for ability, and for peaceable and law abiding character, so created a black elite in which elite blacks could feel at home. Desegregation did more damage to black communities than it did to white communities.

            Diversity plus proximity equals war, and everyone prefers peace. Everyone wants segregation for himself, as you can see in our white elites living in lily white suburbs and sending their children to lily white schools. They just want to impose segregation on their inferiors because they hate them and want them to suffer. They want to inflict desegregation on other people, never on themselves.

            It is not speculators that are causing the few remaining white places near cities to be ridiculously expensive, it is too many people trying to flee into too small refuges.

            Members of the elite want to be near other members of the elite, so want to be near the big city, but they also want a safe house with with a garden for their wife and kids, and there just is not much available, hence the astronomical cost of safe housing near the big city. Socialism will not make more of it, just as it will not make more bread. It will destroy what little there is of it.

            Under socialism, just as everyone has to queue for bread, everyone has to live in government project housing. No one wants to live in government project housing. Everyone flees housing projects if they can. Bombing a neighborhood would be less damaging than the effect of a government housing project.

            • Mike says:

              >Where the South created black universities to create a black middle and upper class to rule blacks for them

              The only hole in that lock-tight theory is that many, if not most, black universities in the South were founded by Northern religious societies or carpetbagger Northerners and their black puppets within Southern legislatures during the 1860s and 1870s. That feels like the Boston Brahmins determining the way the South should order its society, not the South determining how it should order its society.

              • jim says:

                The South took what they were given, and turned it to their purpose. The leftists expected their black clients to become regular middle class people and get jobs in the regular white middle class, the right needed people to control blacks, and were under pressure to find jobs for those blacks with degrees.

    • The Cominator says:

      “Leftism cannot be fought openly – it would look like oppression, unfairness, “fascism” – all the things the left tells us are true would for most people look all the more true.”

      So what… and if you want to add an air of secrecy as to the fate of leftist in my state fine… model their fate on the Nacht und Nebel (Night and Fog) program.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nacht_und_Nebel

      They should disappear into the night and their friends and relatives should not be told anything about what happens to them.

  24. Shlomo ben Goyblatt says:

    We saw what rule by priests brought to the world during the Dark Ages. Grand Inquisitors, confession by torture, burning at the stake, disregard for science. So we probably don’t want to revisit that path.

    Then we saw what rule by dictator brought to the world. Oy vey never again.

    We should just let Israel run things, life would be much simpler.

    • jim says:

      Hey the inquisition executed a couple of thousand over a couple of centuries. The communists murdered a hundred million over a few years.

      We definitely do want to revisit that path. You cannot let heretics undermine the state religion if it is a reasonably sane religion.

      But evil and insane state religions undermine themselves, so they are apt to murder very large numbers of heretics.

      Spain faced external subversion from a powerful and hostile Muslim neighbor, with Jews frequently being agents of that power, so killing off a tiny number of heretics was like executing communists. Needs to be done.

      The Spanish inquisition was fine. If England had had an inquisition, the progs would never have regained power. William Wilberforce needed to be sent to Jamaica as a slave, and the entryists who took over the Africa society should have been executed for their crimes.

      That said, I think the inquisition only needs to keep an eye on members of state and quasi state institutions. Converting everyone at swordpoint is apt to be a nasty business, bad for the economy, and bad for technological innovation.

      If we keep the state and quasi statal apparatus in line, that will require considerably fewer executions than the Spanish inquisition needed in its efforts to keep everyone in line.

      • Aldon says:

        Sure that you’re talking a fedora tipper or a Jew.

      • The Cominator says:

        Some religions should be tolerated outside state and quasi state jobs and some should be ruthlessly hunted down and eliminated in their entirety.

        Islam of the non-sufi variety, progressivism and communism need to be ruthlessly hunted down and purged to the last man and the women spared only if it would massively upset the ratio (which it would if you killed all the prog women) and only as very low status slave concubines

    • Aldon says:

      >We saw what rule by priests brought to the world during the Dark Ages.

      A more fulfilling and fertile society than today’s. Or how many kids within your own kind do you think White men off the street have?

      >Grand Inquisitors, confession by torture, burning at the stake,

      You don’t know anything about Medieval European history outside of Braveheart and Monty Python and reddit accounts.

      Burnings in significant European numbers occurred post-Medieval and were committed by Prots.

      The Inquistiors were ultimately a predecessor to investigative justice. They had specific rules for how to handle their duties, how to accuse, and were trained to be skeptical of claims of say, performing sorcery.

      >disregard for science

      Considering how “science” came to be in Medieval Europe and nowhere else (the Greeks, Chinese, etc. all never had such, merely engineering for China and theorizing for Greeks respectively). I’m not sure what you’re on about. Doubt you can name any examples to back you up considering how lacking in history fedora tippers are.

      >Then we saw what rule by dictator brought to the world. Oy vey never again.

      Stalinism and Fascism were just less degenerate versions of liberalism acting up to keep society from going too far into perversion (hence Stalin having fags locked up).

      >We should just let Israel run things, life would be much simpler.

      Israel is a multicultural pit filled with fags and dysfunctional women. The muds are the ones who breed highest, not the Ashkenazi.

      • Allah says:

        Israel just goes along with prog doctrine to secure Western support, no? Even the secular Jewish birth rate is above replacement and the religious Jews are shitting out Jews like it’s 1933.

        • Aldon says:

          >Israel just goes along with prog doctrine to secure Western support, no?

          Just a cope. Tel Aviv doesn’t get the title of Gayest City on Earth unless for nothing.

          >Even the secular Jewish birth rate is above replacement

          Where is that? Diaspora Secular/Reform/Ashkenazi Jews are mingling outside of the synagogue. Israel’s population of such from all evidence doesn’t have any more kids than Euros do.

          >the religious Jews are shitting out Jews like it’s 1933.

          I know. They’re also the browner Jews.

    • The Cominator says:

      Priest did not rule during the “dark ages” priests tried to take over from the time of Gregorian Papacy to Innocent III and they almost succeeded and they ruined the Holy Roman Empire in the attempt and priests at many times had undue influence BUT ultimately they failed.

      Priest rule only came to the West with the Progressive era and the 1st world war.

    • Shlomo says:

      You guys must be too thick to realize you’ve been trolled. Goyblatt should have been a clue. But if you want to be ruled over by priests, by all means join a cult and give them all your shekels.

      About the science question, read about Galileo. I’m not going to spoon feed you. That’s the trouble with you millennials you want everything given to you.

      • alf says:

        What is the definitive reactionary take on Galileo anyway?

        • Theshadowedknight says:

          He was a fucking asshole who was on his way to getting slapped down hard by his peers for being a dick, then the Church took and ill-advised stance on science, he attacked a powerful, influential man who was a friend of his, and power slapped him down first. The result is that he was martyred for “science” when in reality he was slapped around for being a rude asshole. If the Church had not gotten involved in declaring the truth of this world and stuck to the next world, then he would be a forgotten nobody today.

          • The Cominator says:

            He would be less well known to normies (ala Kepler) but not a total unknown.

            A better way to say what the reactionary take on Galileo should be is that the Galileo affair shows the evil of peer review, and that peer review is the reintroduction of the church and in some cases (HBD, the woman question) the inquisition into science.

            • jim says:

              Galileo was not tortured. He got his books suspended and was put under house arrest.

              Which is similar to being deplatformed, demonetized, and losing your job. Which has happened to no end of scientists who attempted to apply the scientific method to global warming, and looks that it may well happen to any scientist that applies the scientific method to hydroxychloroquine.

              • The Cominator says:

                So would you agree with my view of the reactionary take on Galileo, that it shows the evil of peer review?

          • alf says:

            So basically, Galileo was right and the church f*cked up :-p

            • alf says:

              So pehaps, instead of calling Galileo a rude asshole, we should call his enemies in the church the rude assholes. The church was in the wrong.

              • jim says:

                It is appropriate to use argumentum ad baculum on questions of social technology, because what is being debated is apt to be cover stories for defection and one way cooperation.

                Whosoever uses that method on genuinely empirical questions, such as “is hydroxychloroquine effective”, or “does the earth go around the sun”, is the asshole.

            • jim says:

              As Saint Augustine said, Church will always fuck up when it sticks its oar into such matters.

              Church has to stick to stuff that is unfalsifiable, or demonstrably true.

              Since the proper earthly business of the Church is social and family cohesion, there is seldom reason to stick its oar into disputes about falsifiable earthly matters, other than to command that such debates be conducted with honesty and to forbid dishonest and illegitimate methods of argument. When the State Church gets involved, it, by its nature, ends up using Argumentum ad baculum, so the nature of quark, the size of human craniums, and whether the great barrier reef is thriving or dying, suddenly become moral issues, and discovering the wrong evidence is a sin.

            • Samuel Skinner says:

              The Church’s screw up was refusing to admit the earth went around the Sun until 1820.

              • alf says:

                It seems to me that the church has piled up many anti-scientific mistakes, which for some reason they have never been able to deal with. Galileo, Darwin, the theory of evolution… It all sounds radioactive to the catholic, but it shouldn’t.

                Perhaps it’s an example of the church falling into the trap of becoming the stereotype their enemy portrays them as? Whatever it is, this anti-scientific attitude is a prime reason for modern Christianity being low status.

                • Mike says:

                  It’s more than just a reason for it being low-status, it was a main point of attack for progs against Christianity (well to be specific more so Catholicism and Orthodoxy) in the past, and is probably part of the reason that liberals like to claim “science” as their own today. Do you think progressives only attacked the Church as bigoted, sexist, racist, hierarchical; whatever insult they could come up with? No, one of the main criticisms leveled at Christianity throughout the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries was that it was “superstitious” and inhibited the growth of “rationalism” and “free-thought.” Liberals looked at the Eucharist, Extreme Unction, Marian Processions, praying to Patron Saints and just saw backwardness. They saw the religious trusting in these devotions as ultimately futile and superstitious because you then never actually solved the problem you were trying to fix. Want to stop your kids from dying at age 3? Pray to a patron saint! Don’t actually demand new and improved medical facilities or procedures, just trust that the prayer which still results in 60% of your newborns dying will work!

                  This viewpoint still has a very strong hold on people.

                • jim says:

                  > Whatever it is, this anti-scientific attitude is a prime reason for modern Christianity being low status.

                  No, it is the primary legitimate justification for Christianity being low status. The primary reason is that old type Christianity is red pilled. It was not science that got Phil Robertson in trouble. Science (real science, what science was before Harvard got on top of the Royal society) was on Phil Robertson’s side.

                • alf says:

                  No, it is the primary legitimate justification for Christianity being low status. The primary reason is that old type Christianity is red pilled. It was not science that got Phil Robertson in trouble.

                  Of course, but that doesn’t change my point. As long as Christians recoil in terror when hearing Galileo and Darwin mentioned as much as Merkel recoils when seeing the German flag, Christianity has little chance of making a comeback.

                • jim says:

                  Yes, people who recoil from science, real science from the days that science was great, are on the wrong side, are enemies of Gnon.

                  God operates primarily through what the ancients called material and effective causation, and moderns call cause and effect, chance and necessity.

                  It was divinely prophesied that if the Israelites collectively violated the commandments, they would be expelled from Israel. They violated the commandments, Jewing God by strictly observing the letter of the law in ways that violated the spirit and intent of the commandments, and, by massively violating the commandments, pissed off their neighbors, among them the Romans. Cause and effect. And because they were terribly self righteous about their violation of the commandments, one thing led to another. Chance and necessity. And the Romans expelled them.

            • Theshadowedknight says:

              No, he wasn’t right. He was ignoring evidence that he was wrong because he wanted to be the first to prove the earth orbited the sun. He wasn’t the first, but he wanted to be known as the first. He was a plagiarizer and a prick. His fault was that he was a rude asshole.

              Then the Church went and fucked up by taking a stance on temporal rather than eternal reality. Eternal reality, being unfalsifiable, is fine to take a stance on. Temporal reality often is falsifiable, and thus no solid stance either way should be taken. That was how the Church fucked up.

              Galileo needed to be handled. The Church just handled him the wrong way. If they had done something along the lines of punishing him for attacking the Church and for being an obnoxious shithead then problem solved, and they wouldn’t have given him what he sought: fame and notoriety.

              • alf says:

                Galileo rightly idolized Copernicus, whereas neither Gassi nor the church paid the founder of the scientific revolution any respect.

                You say the church has learned from its mistake by introducing temporal reality versus eternal reality.

                If I am correct Jim solves the problem by making Christ the logos.

                But I dunno. I get the strong impression many Christians have a lot of crimestop when it comes to dangerous thoughts like evolution. That’s just not going to fly.

                • Mike says:

                  If you peruse Zippy’s blog you can’t really disagree with this conclusion, even though he agrees with virtually everything else said here. Most of the posts under the “Naturalism” category are Evolution related, and all of them declare it false in some manner.

                • alf says:

                  I should add that a lot of this comes from watching Moldbug’s appeareance at Justin Murphy.

                  Moldbug argues that there’s three factions ruling the USA, and that he cannot imagine one faction dominating the other factions. He is trying to get hands from different factions to shake.

                  That Christians don’t accept vaccines, I’m OK with. But that they don’t accept evolution, it makes it so nobody wants to shake their hands.

                • Mike says:

                  Reminds me of the old Neo-Reactionary Trichotomy brought up by Spandrell and Nick Land years ago:
                  https://spandrell.com/2013/04/10/conflict/
                  http://www.xenosystems.net/trichotomy/

                  Being the:
                  1. Religious/traditionalists
                  2. Ethnic/nationalists
                  3. Techno-commercial/capitalists.

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  No, I am not saying the Church has learned. For the most part, it is too infected by progressives to learn such an idea. We understand the difference, and so we can correct things when the time comes.

                  However, the Christian crimestop to evolution comes from the manner in which it is argued and used. There are flaws with the theory of evolution that need to be addressed, but it, as all science, has become moral law and not natural law.

                  The world is round, there are 43 different genders, and evolution is real. Which are true? From the perspective of the people not used to having to do complicated political philosophy as a hobby, if one is false, all could be false. If you are willing to lie to me about something clearly, visibly, obviously false, can I be sure that you are telling the truth about the things I can’t see to verify? If you want Christians to stop suspecting science, then stop using it as a cudgel against them. We have seen the fruits of those who abandoned Christianity for “reason” and atheism, and it has been unbelievably bloody and unreasonable.

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  You dont know any Christian’s, do you, Alf? It’s pretty clear that you are talking about leftist caricatures of Christians and not the real deal.

                • alf says:

                  You dont know any Christian’s, do you, Alf?

                  You’d be surprised.

                  Perhaps American Christians are different. Dutch Christians, whether Katholiek or Gereformeerd, I know reasonably well.

                • Mike says:

                  > Perhaps American Christians are different.

                  That’s where you’d be wrong. The worst of the Creationists and their ilk all come from here.

                • jim says:

                  > > Perhaps American Christians are different.

                  > That’s where you’d be wrong. The worst of the Creationists and their ilk all come from here.

                  That is a myth, reflecting progressive hostility to flyover country. There are a lot of young earthers in flyover country, but anti science Christians are stronger in Europe.

                  It is just that American progressives love to tell us that Europe is so much more sophisticated than flyover country. It is not.

                  People who fly around the world are indeed more sophisticated, but people who fly around Europe, not so much.

                • alf says:

                  That’s where you’d be wrong. The worst of the Creationists and their ilk all come from here.

                  Yeah that’s about what I’d expect. But I don’t want to offend TSK any more 😁

                • alf says:

                  In Europe, Christians aren’t openly anti-scientific the way progs describe them either. But why is it that everywhere I go, be it offline, on Zippy’s blog, on Vox Day’s blog, and here, everywhere, Catholics flinch in terror when evolution is discussed, like Merkel flinches when German flags are waved.

                • Mike says:

                  Well in terms of numbers it may be more likely in the United States, hardline Creationists are typically Protestants and America has a lot of those. Would think it would be harder to find large amounts of Creationists in a historically Catholic or Orthodox country. Of course there are plenty of areas in Europe that are Protestant as well though so idk.

                  Also, Alf, regardless of debate over minor issues or semantics, Christianity historically was not a religion of cucks or “anti-science” (whatever that even means) and you damn well know that. Do you want to sound like a Reddit atheist who thinks the Dark Ages actually happened and that the French Revolution resulted in a flowering of knowledge? Because that’s what you’re going towards.

                • jim says:

                  There is a important reason why Christian nations founded science, and it is not only biological. Observe that Orthodox Jews don’t do science and technology – it is all atheist Jews and, back in the days before before peer review, conversos to progressivism. Religion has a huge and obvious effect. Muslims don’t do science, and Islam is multiracial, so it is not only mud blood that is stopping them. Islam has lots of whitish engineers, who are often quite good.

                  Christianity, rightly understood as Saint Augustine understood it, is fundamentally and radically supportive of science, and historically has provided the only environment in which science has thrived, none better than the State Christianity of Restoration England. Progressivism, like every other religion except Christianity, strangles science.

                  Everyone remembers that Galileo got deplatformed and demonetized, but no one remembers that The Enlightenment executed Antoine Lavoisier, the founder of modern chemistry, not to mention a pile of other scientists.

                  “La République n’a pas besoin de savants ni de chimistes;”

                  People are quick to come up with excuses and rationales for the murder of so many scientists, but there are way better excuses and rationales for the house arrest of Galieo

                • alf says:

                  I guess what I’m saying is this.

                  Moldbug in his talk makes many excellent points. But among them, I have failed to hear, and don’t expect to hear, is an argument to reinstate Christianity as state religion, à la Jim.

                  Why?

                  Well truly I’d want a debate between Yarvin and Jim. But absent that, my thought is that it very much resembles the reason Xiaopeng did not rename the Communist party the Capitalist party.

                • jim says:

                  Yarvin is making an effort to avoid being radioactive, hence no debate is possible.

                  Also, anything interesting or important is radioactive, hence Yarvin is unavoidably boring and uninformative, while Moldbug founded neo-reaction, largely by addressing issues so long forgotten that they were not all that radioactive.

                • Mike says:

                  Devil’s Advocate: If Christianity is the best and only refuge of science, why are atheist jews (as you attested Jim) good at it? Just Ashkenazi IQ?

                  Also as a side note, Classical Greece is a massive outlier outside of Christianity. What was it about Hellenic Paganism that enabled them to produce so much brilliance?

                • jim says:

                  Atheism does not prevent a man from doing good science as an individual, and it frees him from a belief system (such as Judaism) that would prevent doing good science, but it makes it difficult for the scientific community to do good science as a community.

                  A man who believes there is no God, is vulnerable to the belief that there is no truth.

                • jim says:

                  Christianity inherited its strength on science in substantial part from the Greek philosophers. Greek paganism is so alien to us, and so thoroughly dead, that it is hard to say what gave it power and insight when it was alive, but in the time of the early Christians, it was very much alive, and they treated it with a respect they gave to no others.

                • Mike says:

                  Indeed, it is hard to know why it worked so well when it is so far removed from us. It really is sad seeing how the Ottoman occupation destroyed the immense legacy of Greece. In all likelihood the only reason the ancient Greeks or Romans didn’t end up going to the moon is because they were too successful and dominated everyone else, rather than having an opportunity to compete and innovate with competent enemies.

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  Greeks didnt have that much science. They had some philosophy, but didnt do much development beyond mathematics. Egypt had very sophisticated engineering, as did Rome, but again, these weren’t developed that much. Even the Islamic world did more science than most, although I suspect that a lot of it was filtered through India or part of their European conquest, given what they have devolved into currently.

                  Christianity is the only religious system known to lead to consistent scientific and technological development. It is not as if the rest of these places didnt have the time, or even in some cases the inclination. Something was missing. That was Christianity, though which particular part I am unsure. As society has drifted away from Christianity, particularly among the elite, science has collapsed. Biology that is less accurate than a coin flip, let along the atrocity that is the priests in social sciences.

                • jim says:

                  > Greeks didnt have that much science.

                  The Antikythera mechanism reveals that they had a lot of science and technology that was lost and forgotten due to social decay.

                  Mostly we remember only the stuff that the Christians debated, which was philosophy, rather than science.

                  If it seems that the Greeks had theory without facts, that is likely because Christians found the facts of the empirical world boring and irrelevant, and did not bother copying them down.

                  The Antikythera mechanism was a great big pile of facts about the movements of objects in the sky embodied in physical hardware.

                  Mostly we remember only the stuff that the Christians debated, which was philosophy, rather than science.

                  If it was not of interest to Christianity, the pagan Greek book did not get copied. If it did not get copied, it perished.

                  The technology of the Antikythera mechanism indicates a least a fifteenth century technological level. Science got going in the thirteenth century, though it only became the state endorsed high status method of resolving empirical questions in the seventeenth century under Restoration Anglicanism.

                • Aldon says:

                  >Devil’s Advocate: If Christianity is the best and only refuge of science, why are atheist jews (as you attested Jim) good at it? Just Ashkenazi IQ?

                  You didn’t consider this third option: Jew Science is a meme pushed by hostile Kikes and their cuck enablers. The great Jew scientists you can who aren’t just populizers like Jerry Coyne were mongrels who were raised in a deeply White Christian culture.

                  >Also as a side note, Classical Greece is a massive outlier outside of Christianity. What was it about Hellenic Paganism that enabled them to produce so much brilliance?

                  http://archive.is/ryDkO

                  http://archive.is/IpsMD

                  http://archive.is/mOiCq

                  http://archive.is/arHKu

                  The Greeks didn’t have what you call science. The talk saying otherwise is just Enlightenment and later attempts to claim the Greeks (or Romans) and frame them as if they were just like modern fedora tipper consoomer sodomites.

                • Mike says:

                  Agree with your take on the Ashkenazis for the most part, they did grow up surrounded by white, Christian culture, especially once they were taken out of the Jewish Ghettos (because then that meant they were more exposed to the majority culture than they were in the Ghetto).

                  However the Romans, and even more so the Greeks did produce genuine scientific knowledge that mattered, even if they didn’t have the whole method down. And you have to think about the context as well. For the time period, the amount of investigation and discovery they were doing was enormous.

                • Aldon says:

                  > The Antikythera mechanism reveals that they had a lot of science and technology that was lost and forgotten due to social decay.

                  https://historyforatheists.com/2020/03/the-great-myths-8-the-loss-of-ancient-learning/

                  The mechanism you speak of was just a glorified calender. Nothing special. It being something special was just fedora fantasy peddled by science populizers and philosophical jokes like Science Negro and Anti-Christian A.C. Grayling who don’t engage with non-pozzed historical research.

                • jim says:

                  > The mechanism you speak of was just a glorified calender.

                  It was a mechanical computer that could predict eclipses. That is a lot more than a glorified calendar, and we did not have much in the way of mechanical clocks until the fifteenth century.

                  When did we build a clockwork mechanism that could predict eclipses?

                  The Antikythera mechanism reveals that they had a lot of science and technology that was lost and forgotten due to social decay.

                  We know that a vast amount of ancient learning was lost, because the Christian literature sometimes mentions gigantic counts of non fiction books, and all we have left is a handful. And that handful is mostly stuff that contains material relevant to debates on the Trinity.

                  Do you think that the ten thousand that were lost for each one that survived were just repeats of what is in the survivors?

                  Can you predict eclipses? Could you design a clockwork to predict eclipses?

                  The device displays the Egyptian calendar date and the Greek calendar date, but the objective is not to convert between calendars, but to predict the location of the moon and some of the planets on that date, in particular if the moon, earth, and sun are going to line up for an eclipse on that date.

                • Aldon says:

                  >However the Romans, and even more so the Greeks did produce genuine scientific knowledge that mattered, even if they didn’t have the whole method down. And you have to think about the context as well. For the time period, the amount of investigation and discovery they were doing was enormous.

                  So did China and Mesopotamia and Old Egypt. If we’re going to list every civilization of note. None of them have what you call “science” just as the Greeks didn’t.

                • jim says:

                  We have a pile of Chinese books – which in substantial part survived only because western pirates and soldiers stole them.

                  We know the Chinese did not have theory, that they had facts without theory.

                  We know the Greeks had theory, the Greeks alone had theory, and if we had more of their books, we would know that they had facts, because the Antikythera mechanism could only be produced by a people with both theory and facts, could only have been produced in an intellectual environment similar to that of fifteenth century Europe.

                  To produce a mechanism that predicts eclipses, you need a model of the motions of the sun and moon, not just a record of their motions, and you need to translate that model into brass. That is facts integrated with theory, science made manifest as technology.

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  Astronomy is the lowest branch of science, and there have been many cultures that managed a high level of astronomy without much else to show. The Mayans, for example, had detailed calendars of astronomical events, without developing much else.

                  An astronomical calculator is impressive, but that it indicates a level of technological progress of only about two-hundred years equivalent to Christian Europe. Given the timespan of the Greeks, they should have progressed more. In fairness, they may have, and we only found one of the more durable, rugged discoveries. They also had a much smaller population pool from which to draw, which is a hard limit to overcome. It is hard to tell.

                  Still, a significant amount of their mathematical knowledge was transferred. Even Babylon, a civilization about which fairly little is known managed to transmit their mathematical accomplishments to other peoples. What is so different about natural sciences as compared to math, that they would not survive?

                • jim says:

                  > The Mayans, for example, had detailed calendars of astronomical events, without developing much else.

                  The Mayans could predict eclipses, and they had copper, but their calendrical knowledge was not the kind of knowledge that could be translated into brass gears.

                  Calendrical knowledge that can be made manifest as brass gears is a very different kind of knowledge.

                  The Greeks alone had theory. The assertion is that they had theory without knowledge, while other civilizations had knowledge without theory. Seems unlikely.

                • Mike says:

                  Critiquing the Greeks as “not progressing fast enough” is fairly meaningless when you realize that the Christian Byzantines discovered little to nothing that the Ancient Greeks hadn’t already.

                  I use them as an example and not Christian Western Europe because Western Europe would have been an unfair example at the time. Their civilization had just collapsed so everything was utter chaos. But the Byzantines were still at their height and would be for a good while, and yet they did not do much of anything that wasn’t already based off of their forefathers in the Hellenic Greeks.

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  I’m not asserting that they had theory without knowledge, they clearly had both. When you are making calculations, you have to have a theoretical model in order to make those calculations. My argument is that we do not see that they moved past astronomy to physics or chemistry. There was a vast amount of knowledge out there that they could have found. They did develop science, they just did not take it very far. Perhaps they took it farther than we know and it was lost to social decay, but if so, why did their mathematics survive and not the rest?

                  I’m also not saying that only Christianity can do science, because as I have already pointed out, it has popped up around the world in several different periods, cultures, and at different levels. My contention is that Christianity does it best, hands down, and as the elite has abandoned Christianity, it has led to scientific decay. It is theoretically possible to identify the social technology in Christianity that encourages scientific study and transplant that into another religion, but since we have something that works, why not use it first?

                • jim says:

                  The Antikythera mechanism is approximately fifteenth century technology. How was fifteenth century science?

                  They had Galilean kinematics but not yet Newtonian physics. They had no chemistry, just alchemy. Not much advanced from what the Greeks had.

                  They had substantially better mathematics than the Greeks had, which was what made Galilean kinematics and Newtonian physics possible, but they had largely inherited that from the Indians, who had developed it before being conquered by Islam and going into stagnation. The Greeks were getting mighty close to integration and differentiation, which is how they calculated the value of pi, so they were pretty close to Newton’s mathematics, despite not having the advantage of India’s mathematics.

                  And yet is obvious that science had started, that science started in the thirteenth century.

                • Aldon says:

                  “muh evolution”

                  You all need to recognize the following:

                  A. What you call “evolution” was only really accepted at the time it was since it was useful as a weapon to kill opposition to what became Globohomo. Now that it served its role, nobody peddling it today (your Dicky Dawks, your Dan Dens, your Graylings, etc.) accepts all of its implications (namely that “racism” is desirable, faggotry is not in the genes, etc.).

                  B. Elements of it well predated Darwin. Epicurus for example advocated what would be called natural selection.

                  C. Natural selection depends ultimately on telos with the obvious implications it has for the universe.

                  D.

                • @Aldon

                  It’s true, I remember Oscar Wilde, the textbook Globohomo said “Evolution is an idea whose time has come.” And he did not care one bit about biology, it was all about interpreting it as political philosophy.

                  Yet, let’s not too be hung up around what evolution was in the 19th century, especially not before. The important part is that there is a decently growing understanding of human behavioral biology. This probably has more to do with more empirical stuff like genes and hormones, and evolution is only an explanation for how they happened to develop that way. And with transposons and everything it is getting murkier, see e.g.: https://voegelinview.com/evolution-2-0-by-perry-marshall/

                  I think the evolutionary aspect of our way of thinking just boils down to two things, but these two things have to be called evolutionary or Darwinist because there is no better term for them:

                  1) Human behavior is largely biologically fixed and not a result of social programming. You cannot attribute it to an immaterial soul either, because if you read some actually good theology, like Aquinas, you find that only the abstract-thinking part of the soul is immaterial, and our emotions are suchlike are all biological.

                  2) This was driven largely by socio-sexual selection, intra- and intergroup competition for wombs, it was not about food or predators.

                  This 2) is what you won’t find in Aquinas. This is basically the modern, Darwinist part, an explanation why human biological emotions are so damn hung up about sex and status.

                  The old time sages did understand how human nature is, like Augustine on the three libidos, the desire for sex, money and power, all closely related. But what was missing is the link how our biological emotions got that way.

                • jim says:

                  A lot of female behavior, notably shit tests and their incomprehensible response to rape and sexual harassment, can only be comprehended in terms of evolutionary psychology.

                  Women resist rape, but they go looking for it, and they find it, will not complain about it unless their resistance is succesful.

                • alf says:

                  Yarvin is unavoidably boring

                  I don’t know, I found his recent writing boring, but his talk was pretty darn interesting.

                  He approaches the same questions from a different angle. Even though there is stuff he predictably won’t touch, his thought processes are solid.

                • aswaes says: