War with China

In December Biden proposed that if elected he will go to war with China:

“I am not proposing war with China, but …”

He proposes to use the air force and navy to prevent China from oppressing dissidents, which presupposes US Navy and air force engaging and defeating the Chinese air force in the South China sea and over China. And, in the unlikely event that the US Navy and air force was not immediately sent to Davy Jones locker, what would they do with air superiority over parts over China? The Chinese are not using planes and tanks on trouble makers. They are using cops, and seldom more than one carload of cops or soldiers at a time. The only effectual thing US planes could do is blow up large concentrations of armed Chinese and blow up Chinese strong points – which is what the US has done everywhere else where the authorities or local militias have resisted color revolution.

This appears to be Cathedral policy. Has to be the most unpopular policy in history – the US navy and air force would decisively lose an airsea war in the South China sea, and the US would lose the ensuing nuclear war, because of technological decline.

My previous posts have focused on the likelihood of coup, democide, or internal war within the United States. However, as I mentioned in the previous post, it also resembles the lead up to World War I. Serbia was conducting low level war against the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which Germany reasonably regarded as low level war against Germany, and was incapable of not making low level war, albeit the same lack of cohesion that made it incapable of peace also made it incapable of full scale war.

If you talk to someone in the lamestream about female misconduct in the workplace, or accurately describe female nature, not only will he not notice the things you notice, he will not hear what you are saying, will not notice that you notice. And in the same way, if you talk to someone in the lamestream about American aggression against China, he will not understand what you are saying either. And if you talk about Chinese military supremacy in and near China, he will not only not agree, he will not disagree either because he will not understand what you are saying.

These are thought crimes, and progressives will not only not think them or say them, but they will not hear when other people say them. It is like the mysterious invisibility of female misconduct in the workplace. The British failed to notice that the mighty British army was humiliatingly defeated in Basra and Helmand province by handful of goat herders, and the US army that rescued them failed to notice that they needed rescue and had just been rescued.

A million people in concentration camps … What we started in our administration, but Trump stopped … We are going to be there to protect other folks … We are going to stop the Chinese from their actions. This is as far as you go, China. … We are not looking for a war, but … we are not going to back away.

We are going to use American airsea military power to protect people in China from the Chinese government. I am pretty sure the Chinese achieved airsea superiority in the South China sea during the Obama or Clinton presidencies and are continuing to extend the area where they have airsea superiority.

Biden probably does not remember this speech, he is unlikely to become president, and if he does become president, no one in the government is going to pay much attention to him. But the disturbing thing is that he could say this stuff and get no pushback on it, that no one noticed how stupid and dangerous this was.

Libya is poor and technologically backward, but the war on Libya ended with a transient American occupation, failure to impose the government that America was attempting to impose, and Americans retreating from Libya, which is now cheerfully reverting to its centuries old ways, as if Western influence had never been. The war on Libya was an attempt to impose progressivism on Libya, which is now a lot less progressive than it has been in a very long time.

The Democrats are demanding that the Chinese allow them to impose progressivism.

It is unlikely that the Chinese are going to back away from ruling China. One side or the other has to back away, or war. The intrusion into Hong Kong would have led to war. Had Obama been ineffectually at the helm, a hundred or a thousand people in the defense agencies and the State Department would have each been trying to impose superior holiness on the world more vigorously than each of the others.

You will recall that when China was vastly more oppressive, and vastly poorer and weaker, you heard no tough talk. Outrage about Chinese oppression started when China dropped most of the oppression and started on “Socialism with Chinese characteristics”, which characteristics look suspiciously like a good stiff dose of Hong Kong capitalism. Any time someone talks about China, he is required to say how totalitarian and oppressive they are, something that back in the days of communism, it was terribly impolite and disreputable to say. Rhetoric that is likely to lead to war is mandatory, and noticing facts that would make war on China a really bad idea is not socially acceptable.

The problem is not that Biden is headed to war with China. Should he become president he is just going to fall asleep. The problem is that the holiness spiral is headed to war with China.

We see with China the same inability to see as we see with women.

I don’t think this is a sinister plot by evil plotters to have war with China. Biden is a genuine peacenik. But, China has been heading right, the holiness spiral is heading left, so China is unholy, and all goodwhites must put a stop to any unholiness. So if you are a good person, you must prevent China from heading right – that China happens to be an independent nation with nuclear weapons, and those nuclear weapons probably work while our nuclear weapons probably do not, is irrelevant. “We are going to stop the Chinese”.

If you try arguing that China is obviously on the correct course, moving from desperate poverty to affluence, and terrible oppression to considerably milder oppression, that Chinese airsea war capability is likely to actually work, while ours is suffering mysterious malfunction, that China is an independent nation and we are morally required by Christian principles and the Peace of Westphalia to not butt into their internal affairs, it is not that they will be horrified by what you are saying. Rather, they will be unable to comprehend what you are saying. Crimestop shuts down their mind. Diversity cannot tolerate the existence of difference, because the existence of real difference is intolerant. China is different, so must be morally improved at gunpoint.

432 Responses to “War with China”

  1. Strannik says:

    Possibly some more good news;

    https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/04/03/scitranslmed.abb5883

    Things can change for the better sometimes when you put pressure on people to succeed.

  2. Mike says:

    Well over 300,000 cases in the United States. I want to believe your prediction of mid-April peak Jim, but the United States (I’m not going to blame this all on Trump obviously) is looking mighty incompetent. Which isn’t surprising considering who makes up the bureaucracy.
    https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/04/the-latest-coronavirus-cases/

    • BC says:

      The US is getting hit hard because they refused and continue to refuse to shutdown public transit and wear masks. It’s crime think to suggest shutting down public transit to stop the spread and there’s a similar incoherent reaction to the idea of wearing masks.

      • jim says:

        South Korean solution: Trace, test, and treat. Their tracing is very impressive, and their testing is also very impressive, with it as easy to get tested as to pick up a McDonald’s happy meal in the drive by. They have full data on most chains of transmission. For most cases they can trace them all the way back through many intermediate cases to a particular person arriving in South Korea.

        If you know exactly how transmission is happening, which they know and we do not know, you can completely shutdown what matters, and avoid shutting down the entire economy or interfering with most people’s lives.

  3. Pooch says:

    Relevant to this, Anglin interestingly pushing a war with China narrative now. He’s saying the coronavirus lockdown will cause a great depression like in the 1930s that will lead to a world war with China (of course orchestrated by the Jews according to him).

    • yewotm8 says:

      I’ve noticed anti-Chinese jingoism increasing. A lot of the more masculine normiecons are straight up calling for it, “to teach them a lesson and get revenge”. Explaining to the average man that “Communist China” isn’t really responsible for all of us getting locked out of our gyms, and that going to war with them would not go well, is not realistic. Mostly I am met with anger that “the enemy” could possibly be better than us at anything. It’s like post-9/11, where everybody wanted the entire middle east flattened in retaliation. People are not thinking clearly. They perceive a threat and want it annihilated, and any attempt to reason from a position of no authority is ignored.

      • Pooch says:

        It will be interesting to me to watch how much the Cathedral employs open anti-China rhetoric. I see It here and there but it still seems to be mostly coming from the Republicans.

      • The Cominator says:

        They are certainly partially responsible…

        They were supposed to keep those fucking wet markets (which should be an exception to Westphalian principles because they are a biohazard to the rest of the world) closed after SARs 1.0.

        Obviously as a nuclear power we could not fight a real war with them even if our military wasn’t pozzed… but there should be coordinated harsh economic retaliation until they pay massive reparations…

        “It’s like post-9/11, where everybody wanted the entire middle east flattened in retaliation.”

        I still think Saudi Arabia should have been flattened though its too late now.

        • Pooch says:

          I’d also keep the travel ban in place to and from China until they get those markets under control, but yes after letting cooler heads prevail, obviously military action should not be on the table over something as stupid as the virus when the economy tanking is entirely our own fault.

        • pdimov says:

          >but there should be coordinated harsh economic retaliation

          That’s going to be interesting.

          >until they pay massive reparations

          Money printer go brrr. You don’t need China to give you your paper back, you can just print more.

    • jim says:

      Progs were orchestrating war with both China and Russia until interrupted by Trump. If they get back in power, will resume where they left off.

      Anglin is on the ball, except that he has Jews on the brain. If you ignore all his “JOO JOO JOO” stuff, he is good.

      If Democrats get back in power, I predict imprisonment for Trump and his family, followed not long after by a lot more imprisonments, followed by war with China, War with Russia, democide, and civil war simultaneously or in random succession.

      Conceptualizing our opponents as Jews assists in organization and social cohesion, but it is also effective, and a lot closer to reality, to conceptualize our opponents as agents of Satan and Satan worshippers.

      It is highly effective to conceptualize the establishment of cooperate/cooperate relationships as obedience to Gnon. Works with my wife, works with my contractors. This leads naturally to conceptualizing the disobedient wife, the contractor who fails to properly do his job, the contractee who pays late or not at all, as agents or worshippers of the other guy. In some cases, EU, Epstein, and Hillary Clinton, literal worshipers.

      Thus, in the context of establishing cooperate/cooperate relationships, demonizing the enemy as Satanists or agents of Satan, works better than demonizing the enemy as Jews or agents of Jews, because demonizing them as Satanists establishes that you and the person you hope to cooperate with are adherents of a common tribe with a supreme alpha male in charge of that tribe.

      Conceptualizing the outgroup as Jews undermines cooperation, because people are apt to demonstrate superior holiness by seeing Jews everywhere, while conceptualizing the ingroup as adherents of Gnon facilitates cooperation, because people are apt to demonstrate superior holiness by praising Gnon and proclaiming adherence to his laws. Hence I always invoke Old Testament law when commending the killing of unfaithful wives and their lovers or promising a contractor prompt payment and when reminding my wife to honor and obey, invoke the New Testament and her marriage troth. Gnon is the personification of order, telos, and logos, while Satan is the personification of disorder, perversion, and lies, so it is metaphorically accurate to conceptualize in this fashion even when it is not literally accurate, while it is not metaphorically accurate to conceptualize as Jews versus gentiles, because whites are wolf to whites.

      • Pooch says:

        Anglin seems to be saying that once the economic depression hits in earnest, regardless if Trump is still in power, the Democrats and Republicans will unite in a partisan war effort against China. Ultimately, Trump has final authority on war, but, if Anglin is right, Trump will be fighting his own party [against] war with China as well as the Democrats.

        • Pooch says:

          fighting his own party against war with China*

          • The Cominator says:

            https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/491025-fauci-mind-boggling-that-chinas-wet-markets

            This is one of the few things I agree with Fauci on.

            I don’t want war with China but they need to be cutoff from the world like North Korea (rapid exit of supply chains) until they pay massive massive damages and start treating the wet market problem like they treat the Muslim problem.

            • Pooch says:

              Ultimately, as a sovereign, they can eat fecal matter if they want. We shouldn’t stop them. However, If they want to continue to be a propagator of virus and disease, we can ban them and the products made there from coming in.

              • jim says:

                I am more concerned with the CDC and FDA propagating disease. The hospitals are the real spreaders.

              • The Cominator says:

                “Ultimately, as a sovereign, they can eat fecal matter if they want.”

                I normally believe in Westphalian principles (in fact I made a big point of sticking up for them against some Tradcuck Catlick on one thread) but three epidemic scares in twenty years is enough. No more wet markets or we should do everything we can to make them into another Hermit kingdom. Chinks should learn to tolerate lactose…

                Jim: “I am more concerned with the CDC and FDA propagating disease. The hospitals are the real spreaders.”

                I agree here of course but while they are the spreaders they are not the originators these things and probably seasonal influenza originates at these fucking Chinese wet markets… no more.

                The CDC is more like the centers for disease propagation and the FDA is the worst agency in the entire government by far… but they are also not the originators of these things the wet markets are.

                • Dave says:

                  Lactose isn’t the problem, melamine is. In China you must assume that all milk is diluted and adulterated with toxic chemicals unless you saw it come out of a cow. The only meat you can trust is a healthy animal killed, skinned, gutted, and bagged before your eyes.

                  Whereas you could travel through German-speaking lands buying hamburger at every grocery store, eating it raw, and not getting sick.

          • jim says:

            Being in favor of war with China is one way Republicans can participate in Cathedral holiness without pissing off their own constituents as much. They would rather not trans their own biological children, but they can be in favor of us getting nuked.

            • Allah says:

              Is this a fear of yours left over from the Cold War? No one is getting nuked.

              • jim says:

                In the last four years of the Obama administration, they were engaged in warlike acts against Russia and China that would have been absolutely unimaginable during the time of the USSR and Maoist China.

                In the cold war, the Democrats wanted the scenario depicted on Star Trek the Next Generation. US surrenders to the Soviet Union and implements socialism.

                Today, Democrats want to impose our state religion on Russia and China at swordpoint. The situation is hugely different. You cannot imagine anyone in America giving the speech Biden recently gave back when the Soviet Union was still the hope and dream of Democrats, and every college student was compelled to submit essays telling what a big success Maoism and Stalinism had been. Things are radically, wildly, and fundamentally different from the way things were back in the cold war.

                • Allah says:

                  I was talking about your emphasis on nukes. Why do you mention those of all things so much?

                • jim says:

                  They go boom.

                • The Cominator says:

                  100% the Russian ones still work.

                  https://www.heritage.org/military-strength/assessment-us-military-power/us-nuclear-weapons-capability

                  Reading between the lines of this article it sounds like to avoid half life decay of all those isotopes we can’t produce anymore the US has cannabalized and consolidated our old stockpile into a smaller stockpile of things that at least might still work.

                  So as long as the people doing that were somewhat competent we have some nukes that still work.

                • jim says:

                  > the US has cannibalized and consolidated our old stockpile into a smaller stockpile of things that at least might still work.

                  If we cannot make the isotopes any more, what does this suggest about our capability to consolidate and cannibalize?

                  A large proportion of F35s cannot get off the ground for any one of a multitude of reasons. How many could get off the ground if the people certifying combat readiness never had any of them actually flown?

                • Allah says:

                  Big bomb scary. Got it.

                • Allah says:

                  Did I misspell my email?

                  test.

                • jim says:

                  Yes, you misspelled your email.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “If we cannot make the isotopes any more, what does this suggest about our capability to consolidate and cannibalize?”

                  Making the isotopes is a lot harder than consolidating and cannibalizing them. (As I’m sure you know) The biggest most expensive problem in the Manhattan project was the extraction of enough purified U-235 from the more common U-238.

                  I expect consolidating whats left of the decayed isotope is easier than actually making them…

                  So since the US is apparently honestly admitting that their working nuclear weapons stockpile has decreased by a factor of almost 10 since the 1960s I suspect at least most of the remaining 1/10th of the nukes work… for now.

                • jim says:

                  Extracting and purifying the isotopes from old nuclear weapons is relatively easy. Using stuff obtained from one old nuclear weapon to refurbish and maintain another old nuclear weapon likely to be considerably more complicated.

                  Bringing up a website is easy, but they found it impossibly difficult because they insisted it be produced in substantial part by morbidly obese transsexuals of color. Nasa cannot build rockets because they want to prove that science came from Islam more than they want the rocket to fly. Similarly the Jews destroyed their own food stockpiles when Jerusalem was besieged by Rome.

            • The Cominator says:

              The anger of Republicans and even hardcore Trump supporting nationalist Republicans who didn’t give a fuck about the antifa Hong Kong protests is genuine… I don’t know to what degree the Democrats are angry with China but I suspect there is none. That would require some ability for independent thinking and as they are NPCs and robots not real people they don’t think at all they just follow the party line.

              The left’s main NPC party line right now is keep everything closed forever… no matter the economic consequence. Its also that any skeptics of the virus threat level are conspiracy theorist. This has replaced even orange man bad… the Cathedral bigwigs figure (correctly) that Trump will be far more vunerable to renewed Orange Man Bad propaganda in a bad economy.

              • jim says:

                > I don’t know to what degree the Democrats are angry with China but I suspect there is none.

                Democrats want to murder every heretic and infidel in the entire world, starting with heretics in flyover country but they also want to murder infidels in Russia and China. Who is the Republican who said what Biden said?

              • Mike says:

                Closed forever in regards to the economy or in regards to freedom of movement? They hate white small business owners and love experts who pontificate doomsday, you are absolutely correct on that. And they will shutdown sectors of the economy based around these “expert opinions” and businesses owned by heartland whites. You are absolutely wrong in thinking that they will shutdown the entire economy and people’s ability to move around. The same notoriously open-borders Cathedral, that spread the virus like wildfire in its first days by refusing to “look racist” by closing connections to other countries, the same cathedral that loves their TPP based economy, yes, THAT cathedral would want everything to remain closed forever. They will close what aligns with their ideological objectives, they will not close the refugee camps, the immigration centers, the airplane flights, or their borders in general.

                You’re seeing this everywhere already. Russia, China, Poland, Hungary, countries like this close their borders weeks if not months ahead of cathedral states. I saw a story yesterday that Sweden’s government will put refugees higher on their priority during the pandemic than their own elderly. Only what they don’t like in the economy will be closed, and they certainly will not close borders and connections, because that would be “discriminatory.”

              • Pooch says:

                https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/04/opinions/presidential-weekly-briefing-trump-american-lives-china-vinograd/index.html

                Some healthy Cathedral anti-China regime rhetoric on CNN. You have to scroll down the site but it’s there. When it starts being shown as the top story, it will be need to be taken more seriously I think.

            • Pooch says:

              Being in favor of war with China is one way Republicans can participate in Cathedral holiness without pissing off their own constituents as much.

              Is it still considered holiness if their reason for war with China is economical as opposed to ideological?

      • ProgLatin says:

        Gnon is the personification of order, telos, and logos, while Satan is the personification of disorder, perversion, and lies, so it is metaphorically accurate to conceptualize in this fashion even when it is not literally accurate

        >metaphorically accurate

        Math can be literally true. Physics gets close. Beyond that we have these fuzzy concepts. The more complicated the reality, the farther the concept from reality. People are pretty damn complicated. God is even more so. Their concepts don’t map perfectly onto reality. Buf if they are true, they will be useful.

        I’m annoyed at the postmodern insecurity that pervades “modernity”. People are so terrified that some 115 IQ idiot intellectual gadfly with a big vocabulary and no understanding of the real world will deconstruct their beliefs that they stop believing in anything at all. Young potential leaders with strong ties to tradition and a love and true understanding of God defer to some idiot intellectual lecturing about the history of ontological hierarchies.

        Most real understanding of concepts beyond math are only half verbalizable, If you understanding something, make a prediction.
        “Those people over there, what is their story? What are they going to do?”
        “This system, what equilibria does it evolve towards? Why?”
        Ask questions about the real world. Idiots are always wrong – especially the smart ones.

        You might wish you were a robot who only had an intellectual understanding of the world and not a relational one but you’re not and you don’t. You classify your relationships with other people with relational words. Because those people are just constructions of millions of particles described by physics does not make those words less true or a mathematical model of your lover more true. You also have a relationship with the broader world and its metaphysics – God. There is a correct understanding and a correct relationship. As we understand the world better we can improve these but pretending that God doesn’t exist – pretending that this relational component can be wished away or pretending that nothing true or right can be said about it is dumb and arguably cowardly.

        Metaphors are weak and breakdown when faced with reality. Strong groups will likely have a strong faith and a strong God. They won’t be self-coucious about their faith or their understanding. And God will judge them – like everyone else – by their actions not just their words. God reveals himself through nature not neurotic deconstructing intellectuals. Believing in God is nothing to be ashamed of. Consistently losing and being wrong are.

        • The Cominator says:

          Why are you discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin during such an “interesting” time.

          • jim says:

            Because social cohesion, and establishing cooperate/cooperate equilibrium, is the hard problem, and failure at this problem is at the root of our other failures.

            And words that discuss this problem non trivial to comprehend.

            ProgLatin is discussing the rational basis for making this problem simpler.

            It is analogous to refactoring an overly complex program while continuing to pass unit test. Achieving simplicity is complex.

          • alf says:

            Exactly what Jim says. The way we win is by doing what our enemies are failing at doing: cooperating. If we have a working model for cooperation, we can scale that right to the top. Our enemies will see what we are doing, but they can’t stop it, because they lack cooperation, and they can’t copy us, because their crimestop will prevent them from seeing what we are doing.

      • yewotm8 says:

        At this point there are a large number of people who simply cannot be reasoned with without blaming jews. With a large number of right-wingers, who could otherwise be easily convinced of your worldview, if you so much as suggest that leftism exists without jews, they will call you a jewish sympathizer. That jews might not be the root cause of literally every problem faced by society for the last 2,000 years (including the fall of Rome) is seen as heresy in such circles. Anglin has stated in his “style guide” for his website that he redirects all criticism towards jews for the exact reason you list. His site is going bankrupt now, though. Which is a shame, because he is highly woman-pilled, and in general tends to be good at arguing in good faith.

        • jim says:

          There is a logical incoherence between being red pilled, and blaming Jews, because in the war of Northern Aggression, the official State Religion of New England, with Harvard as its vatican, became the officially unofficial state religion of the United States, and this was a major factor in blue pilling America. If you are red pilled, then leftism being evil and insane goes back long before the time that Jews were allowed to attend Harvard, goes back to the time when Harvard was officially Christian, though it became holier than God before the war of Northern Aggression, while it was still officially Christian, and professorship was still an explicitly and overtly religious and nominally Christian ordination.

          If you want to de-emancipate women, you have to revert the official religion to what it was long before Jews were allowed to enter it.

  4. Aldon says:

    Arguing that Corona isn’t that dangerous is distracting from two points:

    A. Corona is the best thing to happen for anyone opposed to Globohomo since it gives them a shining example of a case against immigration and anything else in line with Globohomo.

    B. It weakens the esteem for a state ran according to liberalism. We’re at the point where a Dirtbag Leftie like Michael Tracy openly points out that a Fascist state would’ve handled the crisis better.

    Just compare how the Far East handled it compared with the West. The Far East shares key traits the West lacks (notably less liberal states, homogenity, rulers who aren’t so hostile to their subjects, populations who can’t be guilted into aiding hostile outsiders).

    • The Cominator says:

      Well all things being equal its not good in Trump’s reelection year… Luckily the Democrats (and modern cathedral leadership in general) are so fucking retarded that they’ve set themselves up to take almost total blame for any economic collapse that might come though.

      Popular enthusiasm for open borders has already disappeared outside of the Brahmin/Priest class and in the cities. So who is it weakening modern liberalism with? The priesthood already wants to holiness spiral into some strange form of matriachal faggoty hardcore marxism… the people who hate the priesthood just hate them more. Liberal social Democracy is doomed no matter who wins.

      The normies have a short attention span and mainly care about the economy and otherwise keep their heads down and try to figure out which way to jump…

  5. Pooch says:

    Interestingly, Trump’s approval ratings are as high as they’ve ever been right now. It’s in his interest to play into the “this is a national crisis” narrative no matter how gay and fake it turns out to be.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/25/politics/donald-trump-gallup-approval-polling/index.html

    • The Cominator says:

      The economic crisis is very real. His interest are to push for the economy to restart ASAP and his approval ticked back up because he opposed the panicmongers who think a yearlong depression where we all go bankrupt is no big deal.

      • Pooch says:

        Not entirely true. To the masses, the spread of the virus is very real as is constantly reported on by all media, including Fox News. Trump needs to control the “pandemic” while also restarting the economy.

        • Pooch says:

          Fortunately, because the virus is just a flu, it will go away on its own. However, Trump still needs to uphold the appearance that this is a generational crisis and he is pulling us out of it with his greatness.

  6. Cloudswrest says:

    ” not only will he not notice the things you notice, he will not hear what you are saying, will not notice that you notice.”

    Saw this article via Gab Trends today about a Dr. who was convicted for failing to provide an abortion (due to exigent circumstances) and did a c-section instead, and it had a paragraph that made me think of the above.

    “The attorney for Rodríquez Lastra called the verdict “a mere ideological expression that shows that they did not look at anything in the trial, in fact they practically do not cite the witnesses or anything that happened there. It’s as if they didn’t see it.” ”

    https://www.liveaction.org/news/doctor-sentenced-refusing-abort-saving-mom-child/

  7. BC says:

    The media’s campaign against hydroxychloroquine is going to result a in bunch of dead leftists refusing to take it while they suffocate to death. They’ve convinced themselves it’s poison.

    • The Cominator says:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVXJmfd3cmg

      Except in Nevada where the governor BANNED it (I don’t think he legally can do that not being a doctor but maybe he can) for use on Corona.

      • jim says:

        Administering drugs is holy and reserved for the priesthood, therefore bypassing a recalcitrant, corrupt, and lethargic medical bureaucracy as Trump is doing every day is sacrilege.

          • The Cominator says:

            “No pharmacist shall dispense hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine except when written as prescribed for an FDA-approved indication; or as part of a state approved clinical trial related to COVID-19 for a patient who has tested positive for COVID-19, with such test result documented as part of the prescription. No other experimental or prophylactic use shall be permitted, and any permitted prescription is limited to one fourteen day prescription with no refills. ”

            Well at least in NY this is not being honored as Cloraquine is being used… at least in the hospitals.

            • jim says:

              Looks like the fix is in for the study, and they don’t want anecdotal data contradicting the study.

              The peer reviewed studies going to say that hydroxychloroquine is ineffective, and if doctors outside the study prescribe it, their results might cause “confusion”.

              • BC says:

                How does one combat that?

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  The cat is out of the bag already. People know from social media that (hydroxy)chloroquine was used in Korea, which happens to be the paragon of “flattening the curve” without flattening the economy. People are trying it everywhere so there will be a large number of data within days. There is some New York Hasidic doctor on Twitter claiming a chloroquine cocktail had 100 percent success on a large number of cases, and this information was picked up by Mark Meadows, a top-level Trump ally. Trump seems to have overruled Cuomo on not using antimalarials in NYC (though it might be officially limited to hospitals as a compromise).

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  Essentially all Trump needs to do if there is resistance to this is host a press conference in which Daniel Dae Kim, the actor who posted about the antimalarial/zinc treatment being done en masse in Korea, translates for some Korean government doctor on a Skype feed vouching that it was critical to the containment effort.

              • The Cominator says:

                How do you know the fix is in?

                • jim says:

                  If you actually want to do a study, you start by administering the drug to sick people, and then you record what happens.

                  But it seems that before they can get on with that part, there is no end of stuff they have to prep first. The are not acting like people who are interested in finding out whether hydroxychloroquine works, rather they are people conducting the holy ritual of peer reviewed blinded study.

                  It is the difference between a priest sprinkling you with holy water, and you hosing down your dog because he stinks. They are not acting like people who actually want to see what happens. They are seeking the other worldly truth about hydroxycholoroquine, not the truth in this world.

                  Of course circumstances and external forces might result in the truth of this world being forced upon them, but that is not what they want. They want to perform the ritual correctly, but they don’t want to see.

                  They are conducting a ritual that is supposed to give you the truth about this world, but they are not acting like they want to know the truth of this world. They are acting like people who want to perform the ritual. If they wanted to see, they would dish out hydroxychloroquine first, and treat everything else as boring crap to be filled in later.

                  They are not acting like a mother who intends to wash away her child’s feces, but like a priest who intends to wash away the child’s sins.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “If you actually want to do a study, you start by administering the drug to sick people, and then you record what happens.

                  But it seems that before they can get on with that part, there is no end of stuff they have to prep first.”

                  That is the logical way to do it… but the FDA requires all sorts of mystic rituals before its done…

                  The one study that supposedly “debunked” Cloraquine they were using it on people who weren’t all that sick yet and it was only found not to work compared to other novel big pharma antivirals which worked almost as well but were more expensive than Cloraquine and had unknown safety profiles.

                • jim says:

                  > “If you actually want to do a study, you start by administering the drug to sick people, and then you record what happens.

                  > But it seems that before they can get on with that part, there is no end of stuff they have to prep first.”

                  > That is the logical way to do it… but the FDA requires all sorts of mystic rituals before its done…

                  But if you actually want data, you have your menial postgrad students fill out the ritual paperwork, while you dish out meds. They are more ritualistic and ceremonial than someone who actually cares about the data would be.

                  And if they do not care about the actual data, they are apt see the most holy outcome, rather than the outcome in front of their eyes, similarly to what happens with “workplace sexual harassment”, where no one but me can see what is right my face and right in everyone’s face.

    • Fred says:

      Can you imagine where we’d be without social media? Chloroquine would have been utterly suppressed by now without social media to spread the word.

  8. The Cominator says:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-the-coronavirus-as-deadly-as-they-say-11585088464

    Corona-chan confirmed a fake and gay cathedral plot and Trump is now strongly siding with the skeptics.

    I await all those who argued with me to apologize to me and kiss my ass.

    • Pooch says:

      A WSJ opinion hardly confirms it, although I agree with you. Instead asking for ass kissing we should be analyzing wtf just happened with all this and what Trump needs to do going forward. He’s not out of the woods yet. Every single governor has shut down their state and Fasci was still allowed to show his face and speak today for some reason.

    • ten says:

      Still the same old bullshit. 2-4% death rate is not a high count for a worst or even average case scenario with no suppression and no medication.

      No ass kissing yet. If saved by medication, no ass kissing ever, because you were wrong and we were saved by external factors. If mass spread doesn’t occur, or if it does occur but the corpses don’t stack sky high, apologies and ass kissing.

      • The Cominator says:

        I was an early proponent of the medication as one of the reasons (among many) why the death rate would be low. Though apparently pdimov beat me (I thought I was the 1st).

    • Fred says:

      The authors make the same argument I made over three weeks ago – the number of cases is grossly underestimated (they do the arithmetic in the article), hence the death rate is likewise overestimated.

      Given the similarity of the 2003 SARS virus, I wonder if its fatality statistics have a similar issue.

      • The Cominator says:

        https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/24/12-experts-questioning-the-coronavirus-panic/

        Some so called experts think its fake and gay too.

        • Fred says:

          Uh, whoops: https://twitter.com/ClayTravis/status/1243160548423991296

          Should be publicly flogged (he tries the “social distancing is working” copout).

          A cautionary tale in believing “experts”.

          • The Cominator says:

            We need a new capital crime based on the Old Testament law of False Prophets.

            Any “scientist” who claims they can accurately predict the future via their models and claims catastrophe is coming unless society is restructured and then their models turn out to be blatantly wrong… should be killed as a false prophet.

            I told a whole bunch of idiots here that muh models was just like global warming and that it was just another plot to ruin Trump and the economy but no…

            They claimed surely muh models surely aren’t complete horseshit this time, surely this is not like global warming, surely the media wouldn’t totally blow a virus out of proportion like this even though they have before…

            When is Not Tom and the rest of the crew going to apologize and kiss my ass.

            • jim says:

              On current trends, we will fairly soon have two thousand dead in New York. They are being very holy and slow walking the hydroxychloroquine that Trump sent them.

              I would call two thousand dead quite soon a significant crisis.

              Our elite is old, and being elite, has to have face to face contact with lots of other members of elite, so it is hard for them to shrug their shoulders and say “Ah, two thousand, that is a lot of people if you have to look them in the eye, but it is a tiny statistic.” For them, not just a statistic.

  9. Cementmixer says:

    There are some rumors that the coronavirus will be used as an excuse to push RFID microchip implants. Sounds pretty bad if true. Would appreciate any comments about the feasibility likelihood and potential dangers of such a project.

    https://biohackinfo.com/news-bill-gates-id2020-vaccine-implant-covid-19-digital-certificates/
    https://id2020.org/

    Interestingly, there are christian and possibly muslim prophecies that such a “mark of the beast” system will eventually be implemented.

    • jim says:

      The crisis will be over before they can use for planting id chips on people, and in any case facial recognition plus everyone voluntarily carrying cell phones makes it largely redundant.

      Technology is bringing us to that place without government enforcement. What, however, the government is likely to enforce is a payment system linked that identity, and a prohibition of forms of payment that they cannot trace.

      The tag on your forehead and on your hand is taking place spontaneously. What, however is not taking place spontaneously, and is likely to involve coercive intervention by the Beast, is that you cannot buy and sell without that tag.

      16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

      17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

      • The Cominator says:

        Abolishing cash is VERY VERY unpopular with Republican voters.

        • jim says:

          The prophecy, in the context of today, means you would not be able to buy and sell except your face and phone links the transaction to your social security number, and this system would be applied throughout the American Empire with a global database of tax file numbers.

          To buy and sell, your phone would need to contain a local copy of a recent extract from the Beast’s global database, digitally signed by a recent digital signature from the Beast, which extract contains a recent photograph of your face, or recent face recognition parameters, or you would need a card with a chip on it, containing a recent extract with recent face recognition parameters.

          Deliveries would only be delivered to a name and address registered to a social security number or tax file number in the Beast’s database, and paid for from an account registered to that that social security number or tax file number. In person transactions over the counter transactions would require your face matching the Beast’s database.

          • Cementmixer says:

            Thanks for the novel perspective on the beast system. I’d have never thought of that

  10. Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

    > Biden

    Biden? Biden seems to have been disappeared, along with the primary contest. i.e., his dementia worsened, or he has the virus, or the DNC just wants everyone to forget about all that primary stuff and appoint someone else at the convention.

    The real question is will they find a way to either give Trump the virus or claim that he died of it.

    • BC says:

      They’re position Como as their new standard bearer.

      • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

        They are dead in the water whether with Biden or Sanders or any last-minute replacement. There is no savior. Hence the need for dirty tricks to effectively steal the election, such as Pelosi’s attempt at embedding national “ballot harvesting”, student loan buyouts (pacify Sanders-AoC voters) and benefits for labor unions (DNC street thugs during election) into the CV stimulus bill.

        That didn’t work, time is running short and they are getting desperate. Since the virus is being used as a laboratory for clampdowns there will be all sorts of other social “experiments”. The media will fight hard to keep the lockdown running as long as possible, party to hurt Trump but partly to buy time to find the silver bullet to take him out. The more chaos the more options — and options are what they lack right now. Contra the pessimists like Greg Cochran and Taleb, I think the panic is manufactured and distancing plus variants of the Korea treatment (hydrochloroquine) will work well and quickly. Look for MSM to push panic 24/7 because the alternative is Trump well on his way to god-king status in 2020.

        • jim says:

          If the crisis ends shortly due to hydroxychloroquine and/or Korean style drive by tests without prior appointment, plus Korean and Australian style “voluntary” self isolation (volunteer or get involuntarily isolated in less comfortable circumstances), plus Asian style thermometer guns pointed at your forehead by Walmart and shopping mall greeters and at all major transit points, Trump will be a hero who defied the medical establishment and won.

          Notice that a major cause of this crisis is that under the limp hand of Obama, the CDC gave itself a testing monopoly, and was for a month, from the eighteenth of January to the twenty sixth of February, unable to expand its slow, unreliable, and inadequate testing.

          On the twenty sixth of February Trump took away their monopoly. On the twelfth of March he took away their supervisory authority over testing, which is why they are so pissed at him and are attempting to sabotage the fight against China virus.

          • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

            African villages with no medical knowledge avoided Zombie Apocalypse, probably with some rather nasty pathogens like AIDS and Ebola, by isolating the sick, leaving food at the door, hoping for the best and burning down the hut containing the dead. (The other ten thousand villages that didn’t guess this was the thing to do experienced cultural natural selection.)

            Doctors will be improvising versions of the hydroxychloroquine cocktail and most-promising candidates will emerge very soon from these informal field tests. The treatment evolves to meet the virus.

  11. Mr.P says:

    OT (but not really).

    Anybody catch the 60 Minutes episode last Sunday, March 22, about Viktor Orbán and Hungry?

    Segments starts at the 29:12 mark.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/video/stopping-the-virus-the-economic-emergency-a-populist-movement/

    I tripped onto it by dumb luck, but I’m glad I saw it.

    Here it is, on broad display and in sharp relief: The face, voice, and narrative of U.S. Progressive power — the Cathedral.

    Viktor Orbán and the Hungarian people reject multiculturalism, build big beautiful walls to keep out migrants and immigrants, strive to preserve Christianity, and aim to reverse declining birthrates by offering generous economic incentives to make lots of white babies.

    The horror!

    The same demonic holiness that compels Sleepy Joe to move 60 percent of U.S. sea power to the South China Sea to correct the way China addresses its Muslim and dissidents problem doubtless cannot wait to send in U.S. troops to Hungry to deliver stern words to Prime Minister Orbán.

    • Mr.P says:

      If the voice and tone seem a little off, this is a first draft of what I intend to send to a few progs. Apologies.

      • jim says:

        It will be interesting to see if they can hear you, or that noticing that the arc of history seems to reflect the heavy hand of the State Department, often followed by the heavy hand of the Pentagon, is such an unthinkable crime thought that they will not be able to hear you saying it, and if they respond at all, will respond as if you had said something completely different.

        The usual color revolution is ostensibly non violent intervention, which ends up funding, arming, and organizing violent groups, as for example in Hong Kong. Then we get the narrative “he is weak, weak, weak, getting weaker, weaker, weaker, he is falling, falling, falling, falling, falling. He has fallen!”. And if enough people believe he has fallen, they win in a “bloodless” revolution.

        If, as is often the case, he and the people around him decline to notice he has fallen, they then bomb the place flat.

        • Mr.P says:

          Jim, I can attest ….

          I sent the link to the 2-minute Biden snippet to the prog I have in mind, with the following introduction:

          “Joe Biden, who displays signs of advanced dementia, has all but called for war with China to protect the Chinese people from the Chinese government?”

          Prog’s reply: “Biden calling for war with China? What the fuck are you smoking? The Drudge Report? Listen to the actual words!”

          My reply: “Biden says, ‘We should be moving 60 percent of our sea power to that part of the world. To let the Chinese in fact understand that they’re not going to go any further. We are going to be there to protect other folks…. We have to be firm, we don’t have to go to war, but we have to make it clear, this is as far as you go, China…. We are a Pacific power, and we are not going to back away.’

          “Sounds like war-mongering to me.”

          Prog’s reply: “Selective listening. Doesn’t look like we are going to get anywhere. Whatever.”

          Jim, just as you predict: “… they will not be able to hear you saying it.”

          • BC says:

            These days the oddity is finding people who are not doing crime stop with the vast majority of topics. The list thought crimes just keeps on growing.

            • The Cominator says:

              There are degrees of thought crime, thought crimes on the woman question seem to be considered the most severe for people directly employed in Cathedral institutions but the Cathedral has also never been able to convince normies to not think thought crimes on the woman question to some degree… so race is a bigger thought crime taboo for normies (because they just can’t get normies to follow the party line on the woman question entirely) but “sexism” is a bigger crime for cathedral insiders.

              • Theshadowedknight says:

                The reason that crimethink on the woman question is such a crime is probably ly because it is the most common form of crimethink. Anyone can avoid using “the n-word” in public, but most people aside from true-believers have some level of red pill awareness, however suppressed. If you are trapped in a holiness spiral where true-believers are the most holy and good, then you pounce on any sign that you have a non-believer in your midst.

              • Theshadowedknight says:

                What I mean to say is that we use the woman question to sniff out infiltration because it is so hard to hide. They do the same. All that, “Hail, fellow anti-semite/white brother/oppressed proletarian,” is so easy to fake that it got them in pretty much everywhere. A viral memeplex only survives if it infects, but is not infected; see Harvard vs Marx. Thus they hyperreact to the most advantageous defections to maintain the memeplex.

          • Steve Johnson says:

            The thoughtcrime comes in questioning the frame which is why no one can hear the belligerence. The frame is “China is only a legitimate government to the extent that progressives approve of their conduct”.

            This is insane and actually an assertion of world domination backed by raw force but they can’t hear that because to hear that requires them to consider that there are other sources of legitimacy other than approval of the progressive egregore.

    • jim says:

      Right on topic.

    • jim says:

      Denial is hardly refutation.

      We accuse the intelligence agencies of no end of criminal acts, of a creeping coup, of attempting to overthrow the Republic, and of illegal spying as Nixon was impeached for, and they reply they are acting in our nations best interest and we should not ask what they have been up to.

      Most of the top people in the spy agencies thoroughly deserve forty years in prison, and if they were republicans spying on democrats, would have gotten it by now, with the enthusiastic approval of the legacy media which would subsequently produce movies about the scandal patting themselves on the back for their role in exposing the scandal and sending the wrongdoers to jail.

    • Steve Johnson says:

      Anything that the *entire* intelligence community agrees is absolutely, categorically wrong.

    • Aldon says:

      Islam is a religion of peace?

  12. Moshe Goyberg says:

    Irrelevant, there will be no war with China. They are doing exactly what we want. Rather than wasting your time with this, you should be shilling for Israel.

    • jim says:

      Had Hillary Clinton been elected, there would have been war with Russia, and probably also war with China.

      • Dave says:

        Also a civil war between niggers and cops, with Hillary supporting the niggers. Black lives matter!

  13. info says:

    Many black americans want to exterminate white americans:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz2LO_0OwuM

    Overwhelming support for this murderer regarded as “innocent”.

    • jim says:

      Obviously, we should not let any hostile group vote.

      I favor limiting political participation to men with assets, wives and children, plus soldiers, cops, and security men. Who tend to skew overwhelmingly white, if we count logistics as camp followers, rather than soldiers.

      • It is a big question if a civ can run with merely disparate-impact “racism” or it has to do explicit open racism.

        • Dave says:

          Don’t know if people need racism to maintain law and order, but they definitely need it to reproduce. If you think your DNA is nothing special, why bother having children?

        • info says:

          Singapore is a prime example of not needing racism or antiracism. Only justice and giving each person his due according to their deeds.

          • Aldon says:

            No. Singapore has a core population (Chinese) who can’t be guilted into providing for hostile outsiders the way Whites can and a state that both enforces necessary brutality and also maintains ONE culture that Minorities need to respect.

            • AFAIK they have also native white citizens (as opposed to whites who just move there to work) inherited from the British Empire, who might not be large in numbers but play a big role in the controlling elite. As for culture, Lee basically forced the English language on the Chinese population for economic reasons.

              But… you see… culture is not a good way to describe the problem with e.g. ghetto blacks and I don’t mean it in the HBD sense now. I mean things like drug use or fatherlessness or rampant gang criminality cannot be called culture. If you understand culture as a traditional way of living of a population, no population could survive long that way. In the past they, like every other population, had cultures that revolved around working, having families and going to church. Crime rates might have still been higher but things did not revolve around it so much.

              Similarly over here, although gypsies often being thieves was also true in the 18th century, they had very strong sexual morals as opposed to current prostitution, they had normal professions not just welfare and stealing, like trading horses or making mud bricks, and so on. No population survives in those past of eras without some amount of functional culture. They lost most of that culture today and have a similar ghetto culturelessness.

              So the ghetto thing is not a culture. It is culturelessness. With real cultures there is far less problem. When people work, have families and go to church they get along far better, the only real cultural conflicts come from either going to different churches (like Muslims) or tensions of ethnic identity (Yugo wars, La Raza) but the later is actually a power move that an authoritarian state should be able to supress.

              If the Singaporean state ensures the Malay underclass keeps having a culture i.e. they work, they have families and go to church, if the state weeds out incisive religious preachers or those who want to make a career on top of stirring ethnic trouble, then they won’t have a culture problem with them. They will still have a HBD problem with them of course but that’s a different thing.

          • Steve Johnson says:

            Singapore very much has racism:

            In Singapore, the term immigrant workers is separated into foreign workers and foreign talents. Foreign workers refers to semi-skilled or unskilled workers who mainly work in the manufacturing, construction, and domestic services sectors. The majority of them come from places such as People’s Republic of China,[17] Indonesia, India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, and Thailand, as part of bilateral agreements between Singapore and these countries. Foreign talent refers to foreigners with professional qualifications or acceptable degrees working at the higher end of Singapore’s economy. They mostly come from India, Australia, the Philippines, People’s Republic of China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, Republic of Korea, Malaysia, Europe, New Zealand, United Kingdom and the United States.

            Foreign workers are subject to very strict behavioral controls as is needed to keep them orderly.

  14. Rufus says:

    I live in China. I am an American expat, Trump supporter.

    Most of what I read about China, from Americans, is just fantasy. Youse guys have no idea how off-the-wall you are. You somehow think “democracy” equals freedom. It doesn’t. You all need to buy a plane ticket and see things with your own two eyes instead of listening to the echo-chamber.

    Now for some harsh shit.

    You wanna know whats gonna happen when America starts messing around with China? You really want to know?

    New York City, Los Angles, Chicago, Washington, Houston, Saint Louis, and Boston will be radioactive glass.

    America will be fighting Russia and China together.

    But, even if the USA takes on China alone. It will not go well.
    https://townhall.com/columnists/kurtschlichter/2019/03/21/we-are-going-to-lose-the-coming-war-with-china-n2543332

    Don’t believe me. See for yourself.

    • Dave says:

      If it’s the Democrats agitating for war with China, then glassed cities are just a case of getting what you voted for. Good thing we turned the military into a welfare program for trannies and women of color; that puts a lot fewer straight white Christian cis-men in Chinese POW camps or at the bottom of the South China Sea.

    • jim says:

      China does not have hypersonic missiles yet. But my assessment is that even with an old fashioned battle of airfield planes versus carrier planes, Chinese would win in the South China sea.

      • Fred says:

        You two dorks just replied to a wumao (surely no-one else would consider this a pro-democracy blog?)

        • Yeah, not bad at affecting an American tough-guy tone, but clearly didn’t read the post, which says that war with china would be a bad thing, and proceeds with the frame that we want war with china.

          • info says:

            Speak softly but carry a big gun should be the policy.

          • Bilge_Pump says:

            “Now for some harsh shit”

            Sounds like a 14 year old about to tell me about the evils of capitalism and white patriarchy

  15. R7 Rocket says:

    The Cathedral is now sending its own DC consultants to post with their real names on Gab attacking chloroquine experiments on COVID19. I called out this consultant and his promotion of an affirmative action hire when he was attacking the treatments. He blocked me.

  16. Mack Trucks says:

    Remember when China pulled up some warships while sobama took a selfie in Alaska?
    This society is done so don’t waste time turning the fork.

  17. Carmaker says:

    It’s not exactly the left who wants war with China, though. It’s mostly aging, center right neocons who still think China is a communist country, and it’s our duty to spread democracy or some such idiocy.

    I’ve been to China several times and it’s about as far right as it gets. There is not a single shred of communism other than the party’s name. They’re a modern day mercantilist society that borders on fascism. Their state-run economy resembles a juiced up Japan/Korea during their boom, basically authoritarian state capitalism that far right intellectuals dream about. Yet the midwits that make up most of conservatism still think the “ChiComs” are far left SJWs or something. It’s baffling.

    • The Cominator says:

      Most people on the right who want war with China now are people pissed about Corona-Chan… I don’t want actual war but at this point I want total economic war. What are those fuckers thinking still having wildlife markets… eat normal fucking food and stop creating epidemic scares.

      • Jan Martense says:

        People eat all kinds of weird shit all over the world. I live in the US–not even in the deep south, in a swing state–and I’ve met people who ate rattlesnake and roadkill that’s been sitting in a ditch for 18 hours. Also note that the virus didn’t come directly from bats (which were not sold at that market) but spread to some other type of animal as an intermediary.

        Personally I think hunting and foraging responsibly is a great supplemental food source, and punishing people for doing so sounds both wrong and vaguely leftist. Tariffs on China are probably good to encourage reindustrialization, but not just to be adversarial.

        • The Cominator says:

          Its more that they are factory farming wild animals together… this has proven to be a biohazard to the rest of the world including us…

          Hence I think an exception to normal Westphalian indifference to internal policy is warranted on this point.

    • Fred says:

      Most of the anti-Chinese sentiment I see on the right (eg. see FreeRepublic) is boomers mentally stuck in the industrial era whining about the lack of manufacturing jobs (ie. the “Chicoms” stole them all).

      • Jan Martense says:

        Free trade is garbage in a modern context and the Chinese did (along with automation) take our manufacturing jobs, but not because they “stole” them–rather because they have sound economic policy and stable governance. If boomers really considered the implications of their complaints, they should want to emulate China, not fight them.

        The sad fact is that 99% of conservatives are still sold on liberalism, “rights,” democracy, etc., and that’s part of the problem. But there’s another aspect as well: conservatives are more nationalistic than progs, they actually care which government is seen as the most powerful, and they realize that China is the next superpower, and so conclude that hostility to China is the best way to preserve American hegemony. All of which is correct. The only incorrect part is assuming American hegemony is the most desirable outcome for the Americans people.

        • Mike says:

          Which then begs the question of how do we as Americans remain proud of our country and its traditions when its entire founding and reason for being is Satanic?

          • Bob says:

            I wouldn’t say its entire founding and reason was satanic. Yeah, the Revolutionary War wasn’t the righteous thing we thought, but there’s a lot more to our history, especially if you’re southern, than rebellion against a king and establishing equality. Iirc, Robert Dabney wrote in 1876 “Women’s Rights Women”, demonstrating that not everyone was the hypocritical yankee Moldbug criticizes.
            A lot of our traditions are based and blessed by Gnon. We conquered a number of ferocious and warlike peoples, turned their land into the world’s breadbasket, and invented the internet.

          • Jan Martense says:

            Yeah, its pretty much impossible. I think America does come out of a much larger English and European tradition that people could turn to. My personal LARP/fantasy is an amicable regionalization of the US where different regions turn to different cultural traditions. Like New England becomes overtly Irish, Illinois overtly Polish, Georgia overtly English, etc., or possibly even doing so on a town-by-town basis (which wasn’t uncommon in Europe, you had Danube German towns in the Balkans, Jewish shetls, and so forth.)

            But I realize that’s a LARP. Still, I think the best we can do is honor our real cultural heritage. One thing that triggers Boomercons is to say “the problem with Hispanics isn’t that they don’t assimilate, it’s that they DO assimilate.” If they spoke Spanish, stayed in their own ghettoes, and didn’t vote, they would be perfectly ok, maybe even good. Mexico has some real culture of its own. It’s the blending and “Americanization” which makes everything shit.

          • Pooch says:

            My opinion is that if we remove democracy and return to America’s former peak, but hold the appearance of a republic, as Augustus did for Rome we still can be in a good spot. Early to mid 20th century America perhaps is not such a bad place to be with Emperor Trump. This coincides with the mantra “Make America Great Again”.

          • Jan Martense says:

            I wouldn’t say its entire founding and reason was satanic…A lot of our traditions are based and blessed by Gnon.

            The American Constitution and government is entirely Satanic with no redeeming qualities. I do think you may be on to something in that an organic “American” culture may have existed at one time, independent of the government, something that spawned the frontiersmen and cowboys and their spiritual descendants. But if that culture did exist once, it has been dead for a long time now.

            • Bob says:

              Yeah, I’m referring to our culture that was independent of the Revolutionary War, Constitution, etc. And I agree that culture is pretty much dead. But we have memories of those traditions. They’re still ours and what was inside our ancestors that created them is still in us.

              My American ancestors shot a lot of people with guns invented by other Americans. I shoot American guns. That’s something. I went to school with John Moses Browning’s descendants. My buddy is a rancher like his grandfather and his Scottish ancestors were cattle herders.

              We have a lot to be proud of, maybe not of our political leaders, but of our specific ancestors. Are we talking past each other, Jan Martense?

              • Jan Martense says:

                No, I get where you’re coming from. I agree that there was or is something distinctly “American,” that may be good. But I would add as a caveat that even among whites, only a certain percentage hail from those specific “American” ancestors, and of those that do, they are broadly speaking the most atomized and culturally detached people in history.

                At least Italians and Poles in America still consider themselves identifiably “Italian” or “Polish,” and can name aspects of their heritage that are identifiably Italian or Polish, however weak their connection to the home country is today. The only “Americans,” who consider themselves as such, are found in Appalachia. I love Appalachia but really it is its own subregion, not reflective of America as a whole.

                Perhaps, bouncing back to my comment above about cultural regionalization and identity, Appalachia could be considered analogous to another European ethnicity, akin to the Boers. But we can’t expect all America, even a Restored America, to become Appalachia. Most whites’ only healthy/non-pozzed cultural affinity is to their European homeland.

                • Pooch says:

                  I would argue the American defeat of Germany and Japan was something distinctly “American”, even if it resulted in the spread of Poz to the world. During that war, yankees, southerners, irish, italians, poles, jews, and everything in between looked at one another in the fox hole and said we are brothers in this mess.

                • Bob says:

                  Yeah, American’s identity isn’t healthy or good.

                  I think we’re in a weird, vulnerable transition state where we are no longer Anglos or Scots or Poles, but not yet just “Americans”. Except the Appalachians, haha. Maybe three more generations will do it. If no more poz, of course.

                • JanMartense says:

                  I would argue the American defeat of Germany and Japan was something distinctly “American”, even if it resulted in the spread of Poz to the world.

                  You’re not wrong.

                  I guess point here is a long-winded way of saying “America is an Empire, not a nation.” Roman auxiliaries from Dacia to Mauritania could also–rightfully–look at each other and see a brother. Their service was distinctly “Roman.” But though they served the Roman state, they weren’t Romans. Their descendants in some cases became Romans, and as Bob points out, the descendants of modern US citizens may eventually lose all ties to their homeland and also become “true” Americans.

                  However, at this point, that process is on hold as America hasn’t produced anything of serious cultural value in decades. Most generic “Americans” are suburban zombies. Even the two exceptions, Appalachians and (MAYBE) the Mormons in Utah, are incredibly shallow cultures compared to the Old World.

                  What do you think is more realistic? Returning New England Amerizombies to organic society by reintroducing their Irish roots, or by merging them with cowboy culture? This is an honest question, I have nothing against “frontier American” society. They just need *something* besides globohomo.

                • Bob says:

                  >What do you think is more realistic? Returning New England Amerizombies to organic society by reintroducing their Irish roots, or by merging them with cowboy culture?

                  Irish roots, if that’s their heritage, rather than cowboy culture. Iirc, most people in New England outside Boston are English and Scottish by descent (besides the French, haha). So I would argue they’d find refreshing something similar to what their specific ancestors practiced, rather than the Irish, but I agree with your point. Cowboy stuff is just what’s local to me.
                  Have you ever been to a Civil War ball? Dance cards, traditional dances, pretty dresses, women who curtsy, etc. Lots of fun, besides the civil war uniforms, which I can’t enjoy. I think we’ve got plenty of traditions to resurrect and history to be proud of. I have an ancestor who fought in King Phillip’s War. I’m proud of him.

                • Pooch says:

                  What do you think is more realistic? Returning New England Amerizombies to organic society by reintroducing their Irish roots, or by merging them with cowboy culture? This is an honest question, I have nothing against “frontier American” society.

                  Neither. After WW2 we were all “Americans” that defeated the fascist enemy. It was a brotherhood of American boys who became men, each from uniquely diverse regions of the country with differing flavor, but with a unifying ethos of work ethic, competitiveness, drive and perseverance that won the war. Before all the chain restaurants and strip malls, there was an America that one could take pride in. This is the America Trump refers to I think in his mantra.

            • The Cominator says:

              America was originally intended to be an English/Anglo-Saxon ethnostate.

              This idea could have survived the German immigrants (even though Ben Franklin did not like even them) because nobody assimilates quite as well as Germans but it absolutely could not and did not survive the mass immigration of the potato niggers. Thus Jan is correct in saying America is more an empire than a nation… American whites are capable of civic nationalism and perhaps even excluding groups who REALLY don’t fit into that at all like Muslims.

              But American ethnonationalism… not right now. Maybe if we had a good hundred years of something like the 1925 immigration act and were able to get the white population up to 80% it could work but it couldn’t work right now.

              • info says:

                For now what may be required is a singapore style law and order system.

                If the Country is to be multiethnic.

    • Bob says:

      I don’t disagree with you, but everyone besides us in the Neoreaction are trailing and following the Left, including “center right neocons”. It’s the same as how the Left wants equal rights for gays and “the Right” just wants gays to be treated humanely.

    • jim says:

      > It’s not exactly the left who wants war with China, though. It’s mostly aging, center right neocons who still think China is a communist country, and it’s our duty to spread democracy or some such idiocy.

      Compare Biden on China with Trump on China. Biden wants war, Trump does not.

      Similarly, look at the votes on making trouble in Hong Kong. Democrats wanted to conquer Hong Kong, cucked Republicans went along with them. It is the left that are gung ho for holy war with China, and to the extent that Republicans are going along with it, they are being dragged along by the left. Remember the people campaigning on the Hong Kong issue. They consciously identified with antifa.

      The right wants trade war with China and to close the border. The left wants to liberate Hong Kong and Xinjiang

    • Bilge_Pump says:

      Why would the party call itself Communist if it’s not Communist? I’ve heard testimony from a dude on YT – Red Pill Germany, yes he does MGTOW stuff but he’s well-traveled and seems smart – that the Chinese are getting lazy and, in his case, were getting aid to stand around and do nothing! Here’s the link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECxQ98yX3pU

      • jim says:

        > Why would the party call itself Communist if it’s not Communist?

        Continuity. They introduced Hong Kong capitalism one small part at a time, and still have a lot of slowly shrinking communist institutions and forms of organization.

        Harvard was already holier than God by the time of the civil war, but only stopped calling itself Christian because of the first amendment. If not for the first amendment, progressivism would still claim to be Christian.

        The party continues to screw over capitalism a fair bit. Communist institutions could quietly regrow, unless the party keeps them in line. If you have a weak leader, it will go back to being communist, and the economy will decline.

      • Aldon says:

        China just has a state that isn’t as hostile towards Chinese as the West’s are towards Whitey.

  18. Stefan says:

    There is a strong indication virus spread stops rather quickly (https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/ -an article by a Biophysicist Nobel laureate) Main reason- most people basically meet the same people every day. Even if you meet new people on the train, after some time most passengers will either be infected or immune.

    For example, the Italian study was of a town with 3400 people, which tested everyone, locked them down, and tested them 2 weeks later. When their first COVID-19 patient died, their infection rate was 3% half were asymptomatic. After 2 weeks of lockdown, their infection rate declined to 0.25%. Roughly the same as in China and in Korea.

    Similar confessions starting even in the mainstream media – from NYT article: “China locked down Wuhan and other cities in Hubei province on Jan. 23. Today, provincial officials are reporting few or no new cases of the virus. Just a few days ago, they closed the last of their 16 makeshift emergency hospitals. Consequently, restrictions are easing. Schools and offices are slowly opening. People are beginning to go out and see other people”

    Fatality rates are more likely 0.05% to max 1% and not the 3.4% cited by the media (https://www.calcalistech.com/ctech/articles/0,7340,L-3800632,00.html an article by Professor of Medicine)The reason is patients who have been tested for are disproportionately those with severe symptoms and bad outcome. Most countries lack the ability to test a large number of people and reported case fatality rates.

    It makes me think that things may go back to normal rather quickly – sometime in mid-April things will start going back to normal.

  19. aswaes says:

    Off topic. Yarvin’s analysis (tip: listen at x1.5) is sharp and entertaining as always, but seems to badly suffer from non-anonymity.

    He doesn’t seem to take the problem of Synthetic Tribe seriously. As soon as you plug power leaks, he seems to think, you automatically get a sovereign that fixes shit — even very hard problems like restoring eugenic fertility, which is fundamentally about WQ. In practice, secure sovereigns devoid of a good theory of Synthetic Tribe (which is, first and foremost, about coordinating distribution of pussy), such as China and Singapore, seem to be unable to even notice the principal obstacle to solving the fertility issue.

    You don’t get a good priesthood for free when you have a secure sovereign. The problem of modernity is as much about (re)discovering what makes a functioning synthetic tribe as it is about plugging power leaks.

    At the end of the day, if your synthetic tribe is not a patriarch’s association, by and for patriarchs, you’re building on a foundation of sand.

    • Fred says:

      Moldbug has never covered the WQ, so it’s not surprising – the WQ isn’t his purview. He did link to Roissy once or twice though.

      • aswaes says:

        Yeah, it’s a shame. It all rings hollow without the WQ, which is the true sodium core of the redpill. His historical detours are still amazingly entertaining though.

        • Maybe even more core than it is currently discussed. You know, we never really explained why exactly did the warrior-aristocrats and kings allow the progressive priesthood to win. It is a bit of a hole in the reactionary discourse as of yet.

          And what I see as one possibility is that the very first step was that the warrior-aristocrats women got out of hand. I see indirect evidence for this. Like Montesquieau writing how in a monarchy women have the morals of whores, because the court life is so corrupting, every courtier fucks the court women not only out of lust but also to further his career. It is not unavoidable in all monarchy, I think, but possibly he did see this in the instance of the French court.

          Or Adam Smith saying the royalty and aristocracy wasted their money on luxuries. And the French revolution starting with the King having serious money problems, yet buying the wife a diamond necklace. And Adam Smith also saying earlier in the Middle Ages the nobles mostly spent money on eating and drinking with their retainers, not clothes and jewelry.

          Doesn’t this ring a little bell? Normally men indeed like to spend money on eating and drinking with other men. When men start spending money on buying fancy clothes and jewelry for the wife, and then later for themselves, doesn’t that sound like their wives control them?

          So let’s suppose the aristoi got cucked and betaized and that is the ur-problem. Why? One likely reason, at least in France, that already in the later Middle Ages there was this saying “royal blood does not soil” or something similar, I cannot find the exact phrase. That is a father has to be okay with the king fucking his daughter or a husband has to be okay with the king fucking his wife. Perhaps this turned the aristoi into betacucks and then that resulted in them not being able to resist takeover from the progressive priesthood.

          This is just conjecture, but look, monarchy has been the most common standard form of government over most of history over almost all of mankind. When it falls, it cannot be simply attributed to its enemies. One must ask what weakened it so that it could squash its enemies.

    • ten says:

      When i discovered moldbug, i fell into a world of amazement and clarity, and then suddenly he in no uncertain terms fully endorsed gay marriage.

      I don’t have a big issue with gays and i truly wish them all the best, as long as they accept that we, the people who are engaged with the systemic reproduction of us, get to decide everything and they get to be in the closet, but gay marriage is such a nonsensical pointless moot issue that suddenly moldbug no longer was the supreme sith lord he seemed before.

      He doesn’t deal in every issue and he hardly seems the type to trust on anything relating to WQ, so it’s all good he spent his energy where he was brilliant.

    • jim says:

      > In practice, secure sovereigns devoid of a good theory of Synthetic Tribe (which is, first and foremost, about coordinating distribution of pussy),

      Women want a man who rules over them, and their endless resistance is merely a shit test.

      And they want that man backed by a higher alpha of a tribe that backs his authority, and their endless resistance to that tribe is merely a shit test.

      Just as female novels are often largely about alpha males doing stuff that males find very boring, female fantasy novels are often about science fiction worlds or magical worlds where they get enslaved.

      For tribal cohesion, the tribe has to back the husband’s authority over his wife, and the father’s authority over his children.

      And to reproduce successfully, cooperate/cooperate has to be externally enforced on both men and women, but primarily on women. Enforcing it on men is, due to to male on male conflict and status competition, apt to undermine enforcing it women, resulting in the collapse of reproduction.

    • TIL someone wrote a book titled Based Deleuze. You know I always thought we should look into Post-Modernism, just no one really has the patience to work through the 99% mumbo-jumbo and leftist crap to find that 1% that is useful.

      Consider the idea of social construction. Leftists use it to deny objective reality. That is wrong. It exists. It kills those who ignore it, hence Gnon. But it is also true we are usually not interacting with objectively reality directly. Humans mostly live in socially constructed bubbles. Because that is what we are, an extremely social species of animal.

      So the job of the Right is to create the kind of social construction bubbles that are compatible with objective reality. But many don’t understand it, they just want to reverse what the Left does and rely directly on objective reality. It does not work. Not for this extremely social species. It must be indirect.

      It was hard for me to realize. I have always been mostly an atheist because I found the idea of God too anthropomorphic, I would rather believe in something impersonal, like a Jedi Force. But that is because I am an asocial autist. Most people are not like that at all. The only they care and are capable of caring about is other people. They are entirely social. Nothing exists for them beyond other people, everything else they relate to as other people tell them to. So God had to become human in order to be relatable. No way most people could approach him otherwise.

      So in short, social constructionism as a Post-Modern idea is actually true just incomplete, people do always live in socially constructed bubbles, it is just that there is also an objective reality outside of it and some bubbles are compatible with it, some other are not.

      There are probably other useful ideas that could be mined out of Post-Modern. I just can’t be arsed to mine through thousands of pages of crap to find those. But I am glad if someone else is doing it.

      • Not Tom says:

        Marriage is a social construct. It’s also the single most significant indicator of high civilization and tribal survival.

        Social constructs are good.

        Another phrase for “social construct” is “social technology”.

    • Trying to listen to this, not easy. The host has the usual kind of annoyingly unmanly voices, high-pitched, fast, nervous and timid, saying “you know” all the time. Yarvin is at least slower, not nervous, and not timid nor apologetic. But still high pitched. Which is not a big deal on its own. This would be a lot better if someone edited out the mom-I-need-to-pee squealing of the host.

      • Bilge_Pump says:

        Yarvin says “ummm” a lot near the beginning during the small talk, before he goes into his extended historical exposition. Sounds like he doesn’t want to be there.

    • Eh whatever, but @jim, look at this part: https://youtu.be/RRQO3VbJsMw?t=5499 which goes on to this: https://youtu.be/RRQO3VbJsMw?t=5568 and then https://youtu.be/RRQO3VbJsMw?t=5599

      “Burn these letters. We won. They all are our guys now.”

  20. Chicolini says:

    Stop calling it the “Cathedral”. It’s the Synagogue.

    • jim says:

      And yet, to get quasi statal jobs, Jews have to convert from Judaism to the belief system of Harvard.

      • FrankNorman says:

        “Cathedral” can be a bit misleading, to anyone who’s not read Moldbug’s stuff.

    • Anonymous 2 says:

      It’s from the essay “The Cathedral and the Bazaar”, which has little to do with religion. Blame Moldbug and perhaps a tiny bit ESR.

    • ten says:

      You people have been dropping that line for ten years now and it isn’t getting smarter with time.

      • Fred says:

        “Is the ‘Cathedral’ Jewish or Protestant in its moral disposition” strikes me as a good political equivalent of the “RP on the WQ” test Jim suggests for smoking out enemy agents.

        The fact that the cathedral promotes thinly-disguised Protestant (not Jewish) values is a shibboleth that wignats, Strasserites and other ovenables can’t bring themselves to repeat.

        • ten says:

          Agreed.

          Also seems to be a lower form of sociology. Dumb people talk about people, mid people talk about events, smart people talk about ideas, or however the saying goes, even though i don’t exactly agree with it. It is a low capacity model, rampant through the dumber peoples, and also among our dumber people.

          • You talk about ideas, then you realize it is not as much abstract ideas but rather stories that rule the world. Stories with people in them. Full circle.

            As for Jewish values. I don’t really know what they are. There are probably multiple subsets. One is the Israeli subset. I remember that after the Bataclan massacre an Israeli security expert was interviewed. “People in Israel see the French government putting uniformed men with submachine guns on the streets of Paris in the TV and are laughing. It makes France look like a banana republic. They think it is obvious that you have to put those men on the border, precisely so that you don’t need put them on the streets of your city.”

      • Not Tom says:

        …it isn’t getting smarter with time.

        Neither are they.

        Here’s a test for the wignats and shills: identify three or more coherent, persistent memes promoted by the Cathedral (or “Synagogue”) that meet any of the following requirements:

        a) Present in the Old Testament, but invalidated by the New Testament;
        b) Present in Talmudic law, but not in Mainline Protestantism circa 1920;
        c) Present in modern Orthodox Jewish communities, but less prominent with white liberals (“moderates”) than with white progressives; OR
        d) Present in left-liberal Jewish individuals, but not traceable in any way back to Puritan or Quaker origins.

        Go on. We’ll wait.

        • maxxx loot says:

          “b) Present in Talmudic law, but not in Mainline Protestantism circa 1920;”

          “mainline protestantism” post approx 1880 is contaminated. you can’t make a case on that basis.

          it isn’t about talmudic law. it’s about racial predilection and political reality. weimar germany and early bolshevik moscow had the same flavor. why not for the same reason?? germans like explicit machine like law and order. anglos make eccentric ad hoc common law type institutions. swedes are cucks always and everywhere. common themes, sexual revolution in america in 1960s, same reason as weimar. 2001. dramatic escalation of degeneracy, common theme. common source??

          more concretely, america was hijacked since ww1 & ww2. est. fed reserve (christmas eve (SYMBOLIC) 1913) seized the money supply (all roads lead to money). protestants infiltrated and neutralized. scofeld bible in 1909 christian zionists are just the most flagrant, it happened all over and all up and down. total destruction.

          “d) Present in left-liberal Jewish individuals, but not traceable in any way back to Puritan or Quaker origins.”

          same spiel as moldberg. but moldberg went on tekwars and talked religion first and my nigga kantbot talked institutionnfirst. kantbot wins errytime and molberg didn’t press the point.

          institutions are primary, always. bureaucratic machines with non obvious owners and compartmentalized agendas.

          “d) Present in left-liberal Jewish individuals, but not traceable in any way back to Puritan or Quaker origins.”

          you associate “puritanical” with sjw freak sexuality. only reason, you have no moral order of your own. or maybe it is sjw freak sexuality. dedication to moral order isn’t the axis the axis is what moral order. puritans and quakers had english version of modern day amish. show homo trans or free sex agenda in real puritans and real quakers (i.e blood related too not just “converted” p.s conversion is as fake as assimilation)

          go on. we’ll wait.

          • jim says:

            > “b) Present in Talmudic law, but not in Mainline Protestantism circa 1920;”

            > “mainline protestantism” post approx 1880 is contaminated. you can’t make a case on that basis.

            Nuts.

            Mainline Protestantism circa 1920 was the country club, and Jews were still bitterly complaining about being excluded from the country club circa 1950 – 1960. Harvard and the rest of the Ivys were still excluding Jews long after 1920.

            > it isn’t about talmudic law. it’s about racial predilection and political reality. weimar germany and early bolshevik moscow had the same flavor. why not for the same reason?? germans like explicit machine like law and order. anglos make eccentric ad hoc common law type institutions. swedes are cucks always and everywhere. common themes, sexual revolution in america in 1960s, same reason as weimar. 2001. dramatic escalation of degeneracy, common theme. common source??

            Common source is the holiness spiral – in Germany, the radical Lutheranism that Luther cracked down on and urged the princes to slaughter, in America the radical puritanism that Cromwell cracked down on, and that the governor of the Plymouth colony ridiculed as causing famine.

            You cannot blame the Jews for the famine in the Plymouth colony. Today’s Venezuelan famine and the centuries past Puritan famine are obviously descended from the same source.

            > >“d) Present in left-liberal Jewish individuals, but not traceable in any way back to Puritan or Quaker origins.”

            > same spiel as moldberg.

            Because it is true, and you have no reply to Moldbug or Not Tom.

            To get jobs in the state and quasi state apparatus, Jews have to abandon Jewishness, stable marriage, and grandchildren.

            What is the difference between Trump and his Jewish enemies?

            He has Jewish grandchildren, and they don’t.

            Our solution to the Jewish problem will be similar to that of Spain’s, albeit implemented with less damage to the economy, and with a safe Israel for Jews to go to. Jews will be encouraged to join the state religion, assimilate and intermarry, as they are now by exclusion from state and quasi state jobs, and Jews who will not convert will be encouraged to return to Israel.

            The inquisition will check that conversos in state and quasi state jobs have actually converted, but the big threat will not be crypto Jews, but crypto Puritans.

            > you associate “puritanical” with sjw freak sexuality.

            It was the original Puritans in 1640 that began the attack on marriage. They demoted marriage from being a sacrament conducted by the groom, and introduced the original gay marriage, a symmetric mating ceremony for a heterogamous organism, which is contrary to nature.

            If marriage is a symmetric relationship, why should not gays marry? It is an unprincipled exception, and unprincipled exceptions get removed one by one. Puritan sexuality was already on the road to purple haired freaks marrying giant dildos when they desecrated marriage by making it not a sacrament administered by the groom, not a sacrament, and gave a heterogamous organism a symmetric mating ritual. The one is as unnatural as the other.

            Morbidly obese purple haired freaks marrying giant dildos is one more step on the path they set foot on in 1640, and not as big a step as those first steps.

            • maxxx loot says:

              “Because it is true, and you have no reply to Moldbug or Not Tom.”

              none of the “puritans” or “quakers” you or moldbug or not tom accuse of “puritanism” or “quakerism” are puritans or quakers by blood. they’re all ellis islanders. or mongrels. you see this with weathermen (who now own chicago and san fran) secular jews (wall street, hollywood) power elite (bush, kissinger, george friedman, fed charimen) academia (boaz freud etc.)

              the last puritan/quaker president was nixon. we know how that ended. plus he lost to the horse dick roman catholic in the sixties.

              you must look at the PHYSICAL people

              “What is the difference between Trump and his Jewish enemies? He has Jewish grandchildren, and they don’t.”

              am i supposed to be impressed?? read emily post (1922) you get a window into heavy ironic air quotes puritan/quaker new york elite. excellent fertility. well cultured. physical. chaperoning daughters to the movie theater. look at her face

              https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Emily_Post_cph.3b09855.jpg

              she could be my mum. you don’t see phyzzz like that in new yawk today let me tell you.

              look at her great great grand daughter

              https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Femilypost.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F02%2FLizzie-Post-3-WO.jpg

              not even the same race, literally.

              press s to spit

              • jim says:

                Similarly, if you trace the Bishops of the Roman Catholic Church, none of today’s Bishops are biological descendants of past Bishops.

                They are not puritans by blood because puritans rapidly ceased to reproduce – if you trace the lineages of the first famous puritans that originally settled America, by the eighteenth century they get down to zero great grandchildren. Ditching sacramental marriage hit them hard, though for a generation or two they managed to get by on the rapidly dissipating store of social capital.

                Puritanism, however, as an organized ideology, as a priesthood, continues to thrive, Harvard being founded by priests expelled from the Church of England for deviation from the state religion, and the state religion of New England that those purged from the State Religion of England founded in America rules the world.

                A healthy religion reproduces memetically by facilitating its adherents biological reproduction, by supporting family and patriarchy. An evil and insane religion, a demonic religion, such as, for example, the worship of Moloch, reproduces memetically at the expense of its adherents biological reproduction.

                • Dave says:

                  The memetic hare outruns the genetic tortoise, but ultimately loses the race when it runs out of other people’s children to indoctrinate. A time will come when everyone who’s still reproducing is immune to Puritanism, and the Puritans will go the way of the Samaritans, Parsis, and Shakers.

                • Anonymous 2 says:

                  “when it runs out of other people’s children to indoctrinate.”

                  I also wonder if a prolonged spell of internet-only education will change things. The indoctrination certainly gets more difficult.

                • maxxx loot says:

                  “They are not puritans by blood because puritans rapidly ceased to reproduce – if you trace the lineages of the first famous puritans that originally settled America, by the eighteenth century they get down to zero great grandchildren.”

                  albion seed.between 1660 ish and 1830 ish zero immigration to new england. all new englanders until 1830 ish were pure bred east anglia puritans by blood

                  (i don’t remember exact decades, close though)

                  total increase in population from tens of thousands to several (tens?) millions, several orders of magnitude.

                  because zero immigration to argue zero fertility you need to explain where all those people magically came from

                  you need to explain why you’re more credible than david hacket fisher who says highest recorded tfr ever recorded for many generations (8+++) and empirical evidence of credibility

                  then and only then we talk about “sacramental” marriage as novel ahistorical papist anomaly

                  yea i said it

                  p.s friendly tip liquidate your market pos asap millions dead in china

                • jim says:

                  > albion seed.between 1660 ish and 1830 ish zero immigration to new england. all new englanders until 1830 ish were pure bred east anglia puritans by blood

                  I have read Albion’s seed.

                  I observe two massive errors. He ignores and denies the massive migration of puritans from England to New England following the purge of the Church of England, and the fertility he claims is inconsistent with genealogies of famous Mayflower puritans, who generally by the eighteen hundreds had few or no descendants.

                  The claim of zeroish immigration is inconsistent with the fact that after 1660, most of the puritans that show up in the history books arrived after 1660, some of them being puritans who had returned to England when the Puritans gained power there, and went back to New England after they lost power in England, and many of them related to Mayflower Puritans, but nonetheless, never sit foot in America until after defeat in England.

                  If we count the back and forthers as migrants, it seems that every Puritan who mattered was a Puritan who got off the boat after 1660. Hence the post 1660 expansion was migration, not biological.

                  Also, the disappearance of congregationalism appears to have been biological. Congregationalism vanished because congregationalists did not have children. The surviving descendants of puritanism are memetic. Biological branches (congregationalism) evaporated, in the same way that progressive Judaism is now evaporating.

                  If the Puritans had reproduced successfully, there would still be congregationalists around.

                  If an existent New Englander claims descent from the Mayflower, he is not in fact claiming descent from the Mayflower, because they appear to have vanished few or no descendants. He claims descent from a relative of the Mayflower Puritans who came after 1660 – not a descendant of the Mayflower puritans, but a cousin. The genealogies are inconsistent with massive expansion, or even survival, and massively contradict “zeroish immigration”.

                  If the Mayflower filled America, or even filled New England, there would be Congregationalist Churches all over the place.

                  Heterogamous organisms with symmetric mating rituals go extinct. It just does not work. And the Mayflower pilgrims are biologically extinct.

                • maxxx foot says:

                  factually nonsense unfortunately frand. you’re factual wrong the existence of pre 1850 new england is proof puritans reproduced. biology rules your piddly little “meme” theory.

                  besides puritans were theologically calvinists. you want to scapegoat puritans but then you have to scapegoat calvinists. are you willing to scapegoat calvinists? amish are the sole extant calvinist pop, v high tfr to this day. can’t explain that.

                  so idk why you want to deny puritan reproduction. the evidence is overwhelming. the existence of new england itself is evidence of puritanreproduction.

                  you want to promote the idea puritans failed to reproduce for mysterious memetic reasons like reproduction is memetic or something. but reproduction is biological. has been for four billion years. you really want to put my four billion years of mechanical determinist bio reproduction in resource abudance against your feather weight “it’s all in the miiind” theory?

                  and if your excuse is the mather line you should know they had 85% child mortality for a couple of generations and then 100% i think you can look it up idc they tried for 8tfr and failed

                  there have been matriarchal civilizations before and they didn’t have high tech or great art or chaste wive s but they were able to reproduce at the physical level. clearly sub replace ment fertility is far far far more extra ordinary than woman domination. biologically sub replace ment fertility occurs only in times of war and times of pestilence famine and plague. i.e active killing or resource scarcity. i can explain current sub replacement fertility. in terms of resource scarcity.

                  you won’t like my theory of resource scarcity of course. its structured as explanation of socioeconomic WAR by out group against in group and tars usurers and other capitalists as enthusiastic participants (resource extraction is so very profitable)

                  but the important thing is you accept puritans were a biological (REAL) people and new england establishment stopped being puritan when it stopped being puritan

                  i don’t have enough time to debunk your “the cathedral” and all importance of “muh memes” tbqh. the people you keep saying are so “alite” (and then smear protestant founding stock americans, i.e america) are just middle managers they don’t set policy and they don’t internalize profit they just meet certain metrics and feel useful by iterating through newest management fads to feel useful and salve their existential angst.

                • jim says:

                  > factually nonsense unfortunately frand. you’re factual wrong the existence of pre 1850 new england is proof puritans reproduced. biology rules your piddly little “meme” theory.

                  The Mayflower arrived in 1620, and the people that got off the Mayflower had few or no descendants by 1800.

                  From 1660 onwards there was massive migration from England to New England. Therefore expansion of the population merely indicates Puritan migration from England, and Puritan success in imposing the state religion of New England on immigrants, not biological reproduction.

                  We don’t have any numbers for immigration, but after 1660, most of the individual Puritans that show up in the history books are people who got off the boat after 1660, or descended from those who arrived after 1660.

                  Similarly, when someone claims to be descended from those that came in the Mayflower, he is usually descended from a cousin of someone who came in the Mayflower, but the cousin came in 1660. You can find living descendants of early Puritans, but not very many of them, and not all the way back to 1620.

                  > there have been matriarchal civilizations before and they didn’t have high tech or great art or chaste wive s but they were able to reproduce at the physical level

                  That they invariably disappeared pretty fast indicates that they were not able to reproduce at the physical level.

                  > but the important thing is you accept puritans were a biological (REAL) people and new england establishment stopped being puritan when it stopped being puritan

                  Progressives reproduce memetically through the state imposition of ideology, not biologically through children and grandchildren, and thus it has been all the way back to 1640. The religion reproduces by stealing other people’s children.

                  Progressivism is Puritan, not in the biological sense, but in the sense that, like Roman Catholicism, they have continuity of organization and ideology, through the state Church of England, to Harvard, the state Church of New England, and continuity of ideology, in that the memes of modern leftism are the radical puritanism that Cromwell suppressed, for example the radical socialism of Mayflower settlers, and the attack on marriage and Christmas.

                • Dave says:

                  I guess my 12th-great-grandfather and Mayflower passenger Richard Warren doesn’t count because he left his wife and kids behind and brought them over on a later ship. He has between 50 and 100 million living descendants today.

                  About eight of my ancestors were Mayflower passengers, though one died in the first winter and his son came over later.

                  My paternal great-grandfather had four children (GBBG) and would have had more had he not suddenly died in 1905 when his last child was in utero. His eldest married a Seventh Day Adventist and had five children and twelve grandchildren. The youngest was healthy and pretty but never married and died alone. One of the boys had a heart defect and died without issue at forty, while the other had two children, after which, in 1932, he received cards saying “Congratulations, your family is now complete!” His three grandchildren are one faggot, one feminist cat-lady, and me.

                  So it seems that low fertility became fashionable among Congregationalists around 1920. Any white man under 30 who knows what all the buttons on a scientific calculator do, please marry my slender, almost-legal-age daughter and have ten kids! I’m offering a substantial dowry.

                • jim says:

                  > I guess my 12th-great-grandfather and Mayflower passenger Richard Warren doesn’t count

                  If his children and grandchildren came over in 1660, and thus were raised in the less biologically suicidal Puritanism of Cromwell, then they do not count.

                  When did his descendants come over?

                  I will bet two mBTC that that though he was a Mayflower Puritan, and your ancestors and his children were puritans, your ancestors and his children were not raised in Mayflower puritanism, but in Cromwell Puritanism in England, that no one living is descended from children he had in America after coming over on the Mayflower.

                  Similarly, the fact Stalin’s economic policy did not fail too badly, and Deng’s economic policy is highly successful, does not falsify the fundamentally disastrous nature of Marxism revealed in the Great Leap Forward, Year Zero, and period in Russia between the Bolshevik victory and the NEP.

                  The fatal flaw in Marx descended ideologies has always been firstly economics, and secondly reproduction, while the fatal flaw in Puritan descended ideologies has always been firstly reproduction, and only secondly economics. Thus today our crisis is not bread queues, but the missing grandchildren.

                  If I am wrong, please don’t post your Bitcoin receive code on this blog, but somewhere less radioactive, and link to it from this blog, with the link ROT13ed.

                • Aldon says:

                  There aren’t any matriarchal societies following a proper meaning for the word.

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  Hey, Dave. I’m interested in whether or not you follow through on this. I’ve seen a lot of chest-beating about wanting a good marriage when the Christian androsphere was still active, and a good reason it died was that all of the fathers talked a big game and then couldn’t walk the walk. No women, no future, so no reason to spent time there.

                  Same goes for traditional communities. No end of men bragging that they have a traditional community and know plenty of good women and so any problem must lie with you. No one actually willing to make an introduction or explain where, exactly, these places are.

                  Good luck with your daughter. Hope you find someone to take her off of your hands.

                • Steve Johnson says:

                  We don’t have any numbers for immigration, but after 1660, most of the individual Puritans that show up in the history books are people who got off the boat after 1660, or descended from those who arrived after 1660.

                  I’m with you that the only theory of fertility that fits the pattern for the 20th century on is yours but it doesn’t hold up for Puritan NE.

                  Saying that Puritan NE was failing to reproduce but was being replenished by emigration from England is a “turtles all the way down” explanation – where do the English Puritans come from?

                • jim says:

                  > Saying that Puritan NE was failing to reproduce but was being replenished by emigration from England is a “turtles all the way down” explanation – where do the English Puritans come from?

                  From memes pushed by a holiness spiraled Puritan priesthood. Same way the gay or celibate Roman Catholic priesthood is replenished.

                  Shortly after 1660 there was a wave of Puritans emigrating who had lost priestly jobs in England, many of them related by blood to Puritans who had arrived earlier, then there was a steady flow of economic migrants, who generally went along with the officially official state religion of the place where they emigrated to.

                  When someone in New England says he can trace his ancestors back to the Mayflower, he always or almost always means he can trace his ancestors back to a cousin of the Mayflower Puritans, a cousin who arrived in the 1660 wave, forty years after the Mayflower. It looks like the 1660 arrivals had higher social capital than the 1620 arrivals – perhaps because the 1620 arrivals were of the extreme faction, while the 1660 arrivals were generally adherents of Cromwell’s saner and more moderate version of Puritanism. The 1660 arrivals have descendants, not many, but they have some, while the 1640 arrivals have vanished without a biological trace. But if you find a someone today who claims descent from the 1660 arrivals, a cousin of the 1620 arrivals, chances are it is via a descendant of the 1660 Puritans who converted from Congregationalism to Mormonism or some such in the nineteenth century. Those who stayed Congregationalist have largely vanished. It took a lot longer than for the 1620 Puritans to biologically vanish.

                  Since then, Puritan descended faith has been holiness spiraling back to what Cromwell suppressed. And similarly, Nazism was descended from the Lutheranism that Luther had the princes suppress.

                  Marx read up on the Puritans that Cromwell suppressed, and proceeded to do in one hit to Judaism what the most extreme faction of the Puritans did to Christianity. A key point of Marxism is that you don’t need capital, and you don’t need experts in command who know how to use that capital well, and have an incentive to use that capital well. You only need sufficient holiness. You only need priests, don’t need merchants. Hence Pol Pot’s Year Zero, Mao’s Great Leap forward, and Trotsky’s war communism. Lenin backed off from this when disaster ensued, and Stalin proceeded to re-accumulate capital, hire experts from big American capitalist corporations, send Russians to America to be trained by big American corporations, and put Russians trained by big American corporations in charge. This sort of worked, but it was obvious that experts put in charge by central planners lacked the incentives and the power of people who own the capital, or answer to those that do, and lacked the power that people who own the capital, or have authority delegated from people who own the capital.

                  Stalinism-Leninism is a less insane heresy from Marxism, and Deng Xiaoping Theory is a quite sane heresy from Marxism, but they are both extremely vulnerable to being holiness spiraled back to the pure faith of Marxism, just as Cromwell’s puritanism was vulnerable to being holiness spiraled into holier-than-God progressivism.

                • Steve Johnson says:

                  There aren’t any matriarchal societies following a proper meaning for the word.

                  The word still has meaning; it’s the human development version of “not agreement capable”. Societies are not female-headed in the sense that there’s some woman making decisions (women don’t work that way) but they can be dominated by the longhouse culture so the word has meaning even if it’s not a perfect mirror of “patriarchal” – which you wouldn’t expect anyway since men and women are different.

                • Dave says:

                  My working hypothesis is no God and no afterlife, but I want lots of grandchildren in any case. The problem isn’t my faith or lack of it, it’s that I have no state-supported right to compel my daughter into early marriage. I can gently try to convince her, but when she turns 18, she’s legally free to go off to college and become a blue-haired feminist. She won’t get a dime from me if she chooses that path, but she could easily take out a student loan, do porn, or be a sugar baby.

                  My sister, aunt, and great-aunt never married or had children. Two months after my daughter’s 18th birthday, it will be 100 years since any woman married out of my family name.

                  A disobedient daughter is as useful as a disobedient horse or a car that won’t start. So in countries with neither strong patriarchy nor generous welfare benefits, most baby girls end up in the dumpster behind the abortion clinic. A son is much less likely to run away to the big city and be a useless whore.

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  Are you saying what I think you are saying? It has been a century since the women of your family successfully married? Did they have bastards or does your family tree just stop at female branches? Damn, that is bad.

                • Cloudswrest says:

                  I’m a 13 generation descendant of Mayflower passenger Edward Doty. He was a rather low level indentured servant passenger. He also got in trouble with the law a bit. He had lots of kids, and has a rather extensive posterity. But is wife was a later arrival (1634).

                • jim says:

                  Still substantial evidence against my claim, since his kids were raised in Mayflower Puritanism.

                  But if dragged over as an indentured servant and in trouble with the law, probably not a great believer – a weak post hoc rationalization, I admit.

                  A violent man, therefore likely alpha, so that his male descendants were alpha by example and genes, hence somewhat more resistant to priestly influence, particularly if the priesthood did not much like their father.

                • Dave says:

                  All women on both sides of my family are smart enough to read the instructions on a package of contraceptives, so no marriage means no babies. One of my mom’s two nieces is planning her first wedding at age 36; her sister is still single at 33.

                  If it’s true that IQ-influencing genes congregate on the X chromosome, sterilizing upper-middle-class girls is especially dysgenic. They were supposed to go to college to find college husbands, not party their youth away.

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  Fascinating. That’s some achievement. My family has been hit especially hard in the recent generations, but at least my grandparents have replacement level grandchildren. Not sure if they will achieve replacement level great-grandchildren, and this time period is looking to be one of those genetic bottlenecks Jim mentions.

                  That is some hard news for your daughter. I see that sort of thing all around me. All these girls going to school that dont really want to be there but are going because of social pressure and ending up with hard, dead eyes–the thousand-cock stare. I hope that your daughter does not end up that way.

                • Dave says:

                  My female relatives all went to college because their fathers expected them to. I expect my daughter to stay home until she’s married, and she seems OK with that, as she learns to cook restaurant-quality meals from watching YouTube videos.

                  Even my devoutly Catholic cousin plans to send his daughters to college. Why not save the money and pimp them out yourself? We all know what happens to nice Catholic girls the moment they’re immersed in a non-family, non-Catholic environment.

                • Theshadowedknight says:

                  Smart man. Sending women to school is mostly a waste, anyway. I am in school now and most of the girls I know are only making it through now because someone is carrying them. The first couple years where they learn math and science would be useful so they could teach their children, but almost none of them are going to be truly competent engineers.

                  Ideally they would have found a man and started having kids by now, but that sort of thing doesn’t happen at school any more. Instead they make these tragically pained expressions when they see little children and wonder out loud if they could just quit school. “Oh, if only I could quit school,” they say in front of the men in vain hope that one of us will take charge of them.

                • Dave says:

                  A few years ago I asked a normie friend if he intended to marry his girlfriend. “Nah, she’s going away to grad school this fall.” I explained that she’d gladly ditch grad school if he’d propose marriage. I think that’s the year they broke up; he’s now married to someone else.

            • maxxx loot says:

              following up.

              emily post: light eyes, no epicanthic fold. thin roman nose, high bridge. high cheekbones, lean face, reserved demeanor

              emily post great great grand daughter: dark eyes, deep set, almost oriental epicanthic fold. wide germanic nose, broad fleshy face, eager awkward smile

              i await your “debunk”

          • Not Tom says:

            In other words, you don’t have a single example to give in any of the 4 categories that would support your point. When cornered, you’ll simply try to change the topic or change the narrative.

            If you can’t find a single Cathedral meme that demonstrably came from Jews, then it’s not Jewish in character.

    • Inquiring Mind says:

      Use of the term Cathedral is like the alternative meaning of Scots-Irish.

      You see, a person can openly offer opinions about characteristics, heck, stereotypes about the Scots-Irish all they want. About any other group, not so much.

      Is Scots-Irish still in use for its ironic meaning?

    • Bilge_Pump says:

      Mybe we can come to a compromise and call it the Cathedragogue? Has the benefit of sounding like a tentacled H.P Lovecraft creation

      • Bilge_Pump says:

        I can see the Christian values at play in Progressivism, but we have to remember that Marx was a Jew, and it’s hard to ignore the presence of Jews in the higher levels of academia, finance, entertainment, etc. We all know that Jews are infamous as infiltrators and dissimulators, and we know about their being an alien religion pretty much everywhere, and their desire to carve out space for themselves in oftentimes hostile foreign societies.

        • Not Tom says:

          Marxism is Jewish. Progressivism is Puritan.

          And to a large extent, they whored themselves out to each other. Listen to the average Antifa goon, and you’ll find that what passes for their “ideology” is a hodgepodge of Progressive and Marxist memes.

          But in their true forms, Progressivism is still ascendant and Marxism is discredited. Bernie Sanders is a Marxist; he had his supporters, but the Cathedral pulled out all the stops to make sure he not only lost, but lost badly. And never mind about national politics; Harvard still sets policy and Harvard is entirely Progressive, not the slightest bit Marxist.

          To put it another way, a Progressive might promote a Marxist over a reactionary in order to gain momentary advantage, but would immediately stab him in the back at the earliest opportunity. Despite occasional shilling from individuals like “boot” here, Marxism is a dead horse, while Progressivism is alive and kicking very hard.

          • ten says:

            Can’t find numbers for specifically harvard, but american “social scientists” are 18% self professed marxist, the meaning of which self profession of course is unclear.

            There has been a lot of cross pollination between marxism and progressivism and the latter has finally absorbed the former, leading to unstructured dissemination of particular marxist memetics within progressivism.

            Point being, i think Harvard is at least a bit marxist.

            • jim says:

              Yes, Harvard is quite a bit Marxist, and the CIA even more Marxist. And a lot of Marxism in the FBI.

              But, like focusing on Jews, focusing on Marxism distracts you from the elephant in the room, the holiness spiral.

              If you view the problems with progressivism as an outside intrusion on an otherwise healthy and sane belief system, you are making a fatal error.

              If only we get rid of outsider group X, leftism would be fine 🙃

              Cultural Marxism is Marxism that is getting converged.

              Harvard is quite a bit Marxist and quite a bit Jewish, in the sense that there are lots of Jews, lots of Marxists, and lots of Jewish Marxists, and it is not the slightest bit Marxist or Jewish in the sense that Jews and Marxists are being devoured.

              There is not a trace of the belief system of Jews remaining, and the Marxists are less and less Marxist, all that remains of Marxism being the shared priestly hostility to the merchant class.

          • I think Marxism is Jewish in that specific sense that it has a lot of Talmudian pilpul type of superintellectual analysis, which can be an attractive trap for those who either want to show off their IQ or like playing puzzle games. I think it drew in and trapped a lot of smart people that way, it pretends to offer to give one an analytical toolkit.

            I think it was maybe Voegelin who wrote that it is hard to argue with a Marxist because their system has an intellectual and an emotional aspect. So if you dispute their economics in-depth, they go for the emotional side and tell you that people are starving and your rationality is inhumane. But if you switch to the emotional side and talk about God, Fatherland and Family, they unleash a highly complex intellectual analysis on you that makes you look like a fool.

            So, in a word, Marxism is spergy leftism.

            Progressivism is Puritan in the sense that it is far simpler, the elect ingroup is holy, the outgroup is evil, not much thinking required.

            Progressivism outcompeting Marxism means basically leftist views getting dumbed down.

            • Indeed it is amusing that the most intellectual sounding word invented by Progs, intersectionality, just means if you add a thing to another thing, you get more thing. (The thing being various kinds of “opression”.)

            • Leftism getting dumbed down is good, as is disgusts smart men who are more open to recruitment to the Right.

              It is questionable how much smart sperging is useful to the Right, too. Libertarians did that a lot and did not help their case much.

              I think smart sperging is useful, it just needs to be separated from the more practical side of things. The sperg is a sperg because he does not understand context, thus he wants to define things very precisely. And that is how you get science being done, Newton did not have to know or care about Italian cultural context in order to build upon Galilei’s ideas. It is useful – in its place.

              But smart sperging belongs to the lab, not to where Hank Rearden is building a railroad, you know? We need to separate the spergy lab side vs. the action-practice-leadership side, and it is not done yet, currently in the Dissident Right is is all mixed.

            • It’s a shame that we’ve been tricked into thinking “analysis” is high status. Analysis means cutting apart. It’s the lowest-grade intellectual activity possible. The men who build houses are a lot smarter than those who demolish them.

              • You are giving an answer to a wrong question, Aidan, therefore the answer cannot be right.

                A parallel:

                Should it be high status for a man to play a guitar well?

                Wrong question.

                Correct questions:

                Should it be high status for a musician to play a guitar well? Yes.

                Should it be a high status for a police officer to play a guitar well? No.

                • Steve Johnson says:

                  It should be (and always will be) high status for any man to perform any physical skill with excellence.

                • jim says:

                  Indeed, it should be (and always will be) high status for any man to perform any physical skill with excellence.

                  But we need to ensure a social order in which it is high status for a man to perform his appropriate social function with excellence.

                  Which King Charles the second, as the fount of all honors, did in fact accomplish, over the the vociferous and physically violent objections of the priestly class, making the scientific method high status and successful leadership of the for profit joint stock corporation high status.

                  And, when the priestly class gets out of hand, this fails. The priestly class artificially lower the status of all other classes. Observe that the CEO is terrified of spies from Human Resources, that Sarbannes Oxley makes officially accounting a priestly occupation, to the detriment of its function of tracing the transfer of value and the creation of value, and that Peer Review is truth by the most Holy Synod, instead of truth by the scientific method. Truth by the most Holy Synod fails for empirical truth, truth about the world that impacts on our senses. It only works for truths about social technology, hence the replication crisis. Increasingly, financial crises are accounting crises, reflecting the failure to accurately track the transfer and creation of value.

              • The Cominator says:

                Take it from a sperg, analysis is not high status unless you can turn it into money. Which I can do sometimes.

                • Choosing a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_analyst career was a good idea. Although the true sperg, the really autistic type who tends to have very narrow and deep focus on his interests is more likely to be the kind of programmer where he can dig into a problem deeply. And system analysis is more of a broad but not very deep, big-picture view of things. This suits me better, I am far better at having a shallow understanding of a hundred things and seeing how they connect and influence each other, than at having a really deep understanding of one thing. This is more of an ADHD feature, a constantly wandering attention results in this kind of big-picture birds-eye view.

                  I joke with other systems analysts that our most important experience is learning what NOT to do, but telling people to don’t do this or that is something harder to turn into money indeed.

                  Anyway, good analysis is not only cutting apart but then also putting it together.

        • jim says:

          Yes, but they are conversos, are assimilating. Those Jews do not have Jewish grandchildren.

          When we are in power, they will go right on converting and assimilating, except that the inquisition will keep an eye on them to make sure the conversion and assimilation is genuine.

          Worked for Spain.

      • jim says:

        The Cathedral certainly has a lot of Jewish coversos, is heavily influenced by Marxism, which is Judaism transliterated wholesale to this world. Marx studied what the radical puritans did to Christianity and did the same thing to Judaism in one fell swoop, skipping over the slow evolution.

        But calling it the Cathedral emphasizes a central Dark Enlightenment concept – memetic drift. If you think it is the Synagogue, you are apt to think the problem can be fixed by smashing the windows of the Jewish pawnshop and stealing his stuff.

        It is not a racial problem. Whites are wolf to whites, always have been, always will be.

        • info says:

          Jewish leftism takes the form of “tikkun olam” as they call it. Or healing the world yet the results is inversion and devastation. Gay parades and so forth.

          • jim says:

            Sounds to me like progressive Jews turning Judaism on its head so that they can pretend they are not conversos.

            Tikkum Olam, in its orthodox meaning, is not leftist.

            When progressives use other people’s words, it is to destroy those people. See Dalrock on “headship” for progressives doing a similar number on Christian patriarchy. “Headship”, in the progressive lexicon, means that if a woman does wrong, the nearest male in the vicinity should be punished, but I don’t see them using the term except to destroy old type Christians. It is not their word, it is a word they seek to destroy, to make the thought it represents unthinkable.

            • Not Tom says:

              Tikkum Olam, in its orthodox meaning, is not leftist.

              It’s like the “neither Jew nor Greek” from Christianity. Progressives twisted it to mean the opposite of what the plain text says.

              People who accept the twisted, holiness-spiraled meaning of either the Jewish or Christian texts are implicitly accepting the Progressive framing, thereby working for the enemy.

            • info says:

              Indeed insisting on the word whilst meaning its opposite. Many progressives trying to keep the sheepskin of “conservative” whilst pushing for undermining actual patriarchy and traditional values.

        • Bilge_Pump says:

          The saying I remember hearing is “Homo homini lupus”, first read it in Schopenhauer.

          When I see Jews running most of the West’s media organs, running most of the important financial institutions, making up a disproportionate # of Ivy League attendees, I don’t see assimilation, I see dominance (or at least the creation of a Jewish “domain”). There were good reasons for Ivy League schools banning them for so long. My father looks up to my great-grandfather for having attended Yale, and I always have fun reminding him that Yale had a moratorium on Jews in place until the 60’s.

          At any rate, the combination of Jewish nepotism and cultural subterfuge w/ New Testament gayness (w/ all due respect to Jesus) isn’t pleasant. Still think “Cathedragogue” describes that pretty well.

          Not Tom:

          “Harvard still sets policy and Harvard is entirely Progressive, not the slightest bit Marxist.”

          Progressivism is a baby of Marxism. Carries it’s DNA. I’m sure there are quite a few openly avowed Marxists both teaching and studying at Harvard.

          But just to be sure, I did a search for “Harvard Marx”. First link was this article from the Harvard Business Review, which I couldn’t force myself to read:

          https://hbr.org/2011/09/was-marx-right

          Here’s a paper from a Harvard professor about Marx, which seems like a total waste of time:

          https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/michaelrosen/files/the_marxist_critique_of_morality_and_the_theory_of_ideology.pdf

          They seem to be at least willing to bring up Marx. Maybe not Marxists but definitely Socialists. Marxism/ Progressivism / Socialism all belong in the same memeplex, imo, as Alt Right / Neoreaction / Paleocon can be said to occupy a different memeplex.

          • jim says:

            Marx stole socialism from the radical puritans that Cromwell suppressed.

            The first of the Puritan descended socialist famines was that suffered by the Puritan settlers of New England. No Jews around. You cannot blame the Jews for that, though you can surely blame them for a whole lot of other stuff.

            When Jews convert to progressivism, they soon assimilate. The difference between Trump and his Jewish enemies is that he has Jewish grandchildren, and they do not.

            Progressivism is doing a better job of getting rid of the Jews than Hitler did. It is a program we plan to continue, though we will not give progressives the credit.

          • ten says:

            Marxism is the bastard child of progressivism, not the other way around, and while marxism seemed like a strong horse, progs adopted marxist memes for that reason. When marxism died, its adherents with some of their ideas were reabsorbed into progressivism.

            Minorities have disproportionate gains and incentives to engage in “politics”, precisely to carve out a domain. Jews are culturally primed to do so, having done so for a very long time. Some part of their dominance, in my estimation a large part but i am open to consider the alternative, in fields such as media and banking etc is only natural and unsurprising.

            I don’t see jews hating progressive whites, i see progressives, jews and whites alike, hating “religion” ie christianity, ie tradition, ie life. And progressivism remains a white heresy, the jews converts to it.

        • >But calling it the Cathedral emphasizes a central Dark Enlightenment concept – memetic drift.

          How does that actually emphasize it? Memetic drift through various leftists competing with each other is, if anything, more like the Bazaar. A market for weaponized holiness.

          • jim says:

            That is a very good question, and the answer used to be fairly well known in the Dark Enlightenment, and rather central to it.

            And if it is no longer well known, time for an article on “the Cathedral and the holiness spiral”.

            One blog article on your question coming up.

    • yewotm8 says:

      The synagogue is not the seat of jewish power, the same way that a Mosque is the seat of Islamic power. Jews today are held back by their Religious Judaism, rather than empowered by it. Rather than synagogue, you’d be better off calling it the bank, film/pornography/recording studio, or newspaper office.

      • Bilge_Pump says:

        Who goes to Cathedrals anymore, except for tourism? How many Cathedrals are built each year, compared to churches? Might as well call it the Church, which sounds way less sophisticated.

  21. It seems to me Progs hate Russia far more than China. And Progs don’t want the white working class to have manufacturing jobs in America, hence they want China as a trading partner. They are full of Russophobia. Russians are basically seen as badwhites, seen same as Trump voters. I cannot imagine them being more worked up over an Asian government oppressin’ Asians. It does not fit into the narrative, their interests, and their emotional makeup as well. No, if it will be a war with a great power, it will be Russia, not China.

    Although, of course, why not both? Crazies gonna crazy.

    • jim says:

      > Although, of course, why not both? Crazies gonna crazy.

      Or all three – war external, civil war and democide internal.

    • FrankNorman says:

      The reason for choosing China as the enemy is that they want the West to lose to China, rather than to Russia.

      But I think that the explanation is a bit simpler: many of these American liberals simply cannot grasp the idea that there exist countries that are capable of defending themselves and giving the US military a bloody nose. It’s not part of their worldview.

      • Fred says:

        I think that might actually be the point – killing off political opponents in wars. Blue wars (ie. wars for communism, feminism, democracy, and etc poz in general) are carried out with red muscle, so successful blue wars (which to date is all blue wars I can think of) expand blue power while killing off the red boys who have to fight it.

  22. Mister Grumpus says:

    Re-introducing the Thoughtcrime and Crimestop concepts into the wild, in a 21st century outfit (and not a black-and-white “1984” outfit), is probably the most valuable contribution this blog is making.

  23. Karl says:

    If Biden or after his demise his ex-vice-president starts pushing China, it will sooner or later lead to a situation similar to Serbia and Austria before World War 1.

    The hand-picked generals in the USA will be unable to note the danger because of crime stop. What about colonels and lower officers?

    The only hope in such a situation would be a military coup – which is difficult at any time, and especially so if there is an imminent conflict with a foreign power.

    • BC says:

      You’ve identified the issue. It’s more likely to lead a nuclear exchange with China than any other outcome.

    • jim says:

      To comply with the ultimatum, Serbia would have needed a coup or a self coup – but, of course, the ultimatum made conditions unfavorable for a coup.

      > What about colonels and lower officers?

      The last time we were on this merry go round, there was plenty of pushback from the midranking officers, who estimated that if push came to shove, US airpower near China would be wiped out in a day, but it did not seem to register as far as I could tell. Maybe it did register.

      • What mattered was the Russian guarantee to Serbia. No need to comply if you think the old Frank Joe will not risk a war with Russia.

        • jim says:

          Serbia at the time complained that they could not comply – and I rather think that they were telling the truth.

          It was obvious that Serbian bureaucrats were perfectly capable of turning off groups like the Black Hand like a tap. But I doubt that the Serbian government could turn its bureaucrats off like a tap.

          • Strannik says:

            What had happened was this; a group centered around Serbian Captain Dragutin Dimitrijevic and other junior officers stormed the Palace of King Alexander Obrenovic and killed him, the Queen, and several of his ministers, overthrowing the Obrenovic dynasty and installing the Karadordevic Dynasty in it’s place. Dimitrijevic was proclaimed ”Savior of the Fatherland” and promoted to Colonel and head of Serbian military intelligence. He was one of the ones that headed the ”Black Hand” secret society that murdered the Austrian Archduke Ferdinand and his wife, a few years later. During WWI, Dimitrijevic was shot by orders of the Serbian government in Salonika Greece for his role in Archduke Ferdinand’s assassination and also conspiring to assassinate King Regent Alexander Karadordevic. (this trial was part of an attempted peace deal in 1916-1917 between Austria and Serbia to help end WWI) During the trial of the conspirators Col. Dimitrijevic admitted his role in all this, to ordering the Archduke’s murder.

            • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Coup_(Serbia)

              “When Serbia gained independence from Ottoman Turkish control following the Serbian Revolution in 1804 to 1835, it emerged as an independent principality ruled by various factions surrounding the Obrenović and Karađordević dynasties. They, in turn, were sponsored by the rival Austro-Hungarian and Russian empires.[3] The Obrenović family was mostly pro-Austrian, and their hereditary enemies, the Karađordević family, was mostly pro-Russian. Each dynasty was financially aided by their powerful foreign sponsors. ”

              This is exactly what the patron theory of politics would predict.

              And it explains why Russia gave that guarantee to Serbia. I am not in the blame-Russia-for-everything camp but it is clear that these Serbs were Russian tools just like the Obrenovic were Austrian tools, and the whole thing can be explained as first a proxy war between A-H and Russia through these two dynasties, then war between A-H and Serbia as a Russian proxy, then war between A-H and Russia, which was allied to France and A-H to Germany and so on. (Although German ambitions played a role as well, and France wanting revanche for the Franco-Prussian war and London was stirring the shit pot as usual so it was obviously multicausal.)

              Jim: a proxy, a tool cannot self-coup without the approval of its sponsor, patron.

              • Strannik says:

                Well, it’s not 100% clear cut and dry as all that, Tsar Nicholas was King Alexander’s best man at his wedding to his Queen (his mother’s former lady in waiting, 12 years his senior and a bit of a tramp before marriage, Serbs were pissed that she faked a pregnancy and then was reported sterile), and the whole civilized world was shocked by the coup and the murders, including Russia. But years went by and King Peter was unable and unwilling to remove the coup plotters who put him on the throne, especially Draguntinovic who didn’t kill the Royals himself, but who got lost and was shot three times in the basement of the Palace by troops loyal to the Obrenovics. The Balkans are still a complicated place geopolitically, and the history is not always black and white like Americans like to see things

  24. Pooch says:

    This post seems out of touch with reality. I haven’t noticed any of the Democratic candidates or any shitlib for that matter mention the Hong Kong protestors in months. They seem to not care anymore.

    And even if the Cathedral did hate China, the coronavirus is drastically changing their opinion. Right now, it is Trump and Republicans who are quite angry with China. Notice how Trump keeps saying the “Chinese virus” and then shitlib reporters call him racist with a staunch defense of the China. Tom Cotton said he wants China to pay for our economic fallout. China just threw out US journalists. It seems something is brewing and it has nothing to do with Biden, the democrats, or the Cathedral.

    • The Cominator says:

      I know im majorly pissed at them right now.

    • jim says:

      I still see mandatory piety about how oppressive China is, though it is probably safer to criticize high part officials in China than to criticize blacks or women in America.

      You are right it is no longer a focus of attention, but blindness to American aggression, and blindness to Chinese military capability is still firmly in place.

      • Pooch says:

        Cathedral aggression*

        After Trump and white males rebuild the US military, China is no match for her, as no nation was a match for Caesar and Octavian’s Rome. Trump is not stupid enough to invade China. Republicans are starting to say America should default on all Chinese held debt. If they want it, they can come and get it.

        • Pooch says:

          This presupposes of course Trump wins the election. An inevitability, a few weeks ago seeing the best the Democrats could muster up was a senile old man. However, it is strange times now with coronavirus so who the fuck knows what will happen now.

          • The Cominator says:

            He needs to VERY quickly get out of this bullshit corona crisis before it causes a real depression, this cant go on much longer. He just gave the democrats whatever they wanted in the relief bill… No doubt full of economic poison pills… Not good.

            • Dave says:

              The economy isn’t dead, nor is it depressed; it’s in a medically-induced coma. When it’ll be safe to wake the patient up and what sort of lasting damage might result is anyone’s guess.

              • The Cominator says:

                Some permanent damage has no doubt been done already via this bill…

                Rand Paul needs to talk to him. The lolberts (and I mean real lolberts not commie entryist like Gary Johnson) are wrong on many things but they have this one quite right.

                http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2020/march/16/the-coronavirus-hoax/

                • jim says:

                  They had to pass the Democrat coronavirus bill, loaded with Democrat riders, or else the Democrats would have made hay about Republican inaction. Trump and the Republicans are aware of what is in, but democracy is still functional enough to inhibit those on the right, though it does not seem to be inhibiting those on the left.

                • The Cominator says:

                  They would not have needed to pass it if Trump stood strong by his original correct position that Corona-Chan was mostly an overblown hoax that needs to run its course.

                • pdimov says:

                  >Rand Paul needs to talk to him

                  Or maybe not.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Rand Paul will be in a perfect position to defuse the hysteria (hes a doctor, a skeptic and will have had a mild case of the disease no doubt being treated with Cloraquine early) about this soon…

        • jim says:

          Invading China would be extremely stupid – indeed invading anywhere is stupid until a fertile elite finds itself with more sons than there are elite positions for them.

          But Musk plans to build a massive capability to lift very large amounts of cargo into near earth orbit. If we restart technological progress, America will once again have airsea supremacy. Which at present it does not have, though the news does not seem to have been heard in Washington.

          Trump’s Space Force is now protecting Musk from miscellaneous Nasa meddling – I hope that when Musk’s massive lift capability comes online, the Space Force gets rods from God.

          • BC says:

            If we restart technological progress, America will once again have airsea supremacy. Which at present it does not have, though the news does not seem to have been heard in Washington.

            It’s currently crime think to admit the US doesn’t have airsea supremacy. I note that people’s brains turn off when I talk about it or post about it.

            • I remember like 10 years ago Nick Griffin from the British National Party talking with an American audience “because if you try to invade Iran, they have these new long-range Russian missiles that blow your ships into kingdome come”. Specifically he was talking about a scenario of missile gunboats – Iran building cheap, expendable boats with one or two such Russian missiles on them. In a country like Iran that has a martyrdom culture and easily accepts losing half of the gunboats’ crews that sounds like a tough nut to crack.

        • Atavistic Morality says:

          >After Trump and white males rebuild the US military, China is no match for her, as no nation was a match for Caesar and Octavian’s Rome.

          You’re delusional and obviously not a warrior, and you seem to suffer of slight demented wignatism as well. You seem to be believe that “white” makes magical godlike efficiency, and that “white” applies a magical curse on the enemy that renders them ineffective. Especially so if you’re not the white man going to war.

          The last time some Roman insisted that they had to destroy Carthage, the Republic fell afterwards and never again rose to what it once was. “Caesar and Octavian’s Rome” you mean a wreckage suffering of feminist and gay mafia non-sense kept alive by great men and their personally paid soldiers, that became insufferable a few years after with incestuous and faggot insane self-destructive emperors and what not.

          Last time some Anglos tried to colonize China they ended up losing their empire as well, stay delusional, keep thinking that a several millennia civilization that has outlasted and existed far longer than yours is going to drop dead like magic. The only civilization dropping dead here is yours, and your insanity will only accelerate it.

          • jim says:

            > You’re delusional and obviously not a warrior, and you seem to suffer of slight demented wignatism as well. You seem to be believe that “white” makes magical godlike efficiency, and that “white” applies a magical curse on the enemy that renders them ineffective. Especially so if you’re not the white man going to war.

            As a matter of fact, whites always do defeat everyone else, except that they are incapacitated by white on white struggles. OK, east of the Hajnal line lost to Mongols for a time, and the Japs used to be quite badass, but the rest of them lose every time. One black man can defeat one white man. Two white men can defeat a fair number of black men, and a small white army can defeat a black army of any size.

            Mongols got gunpowder before white people did, and it looks like whites learned it from them – and promptly improved it. When white people hit India, the Indians had guns that were equal to white people’s guns, but a handful of white people conquered India.

            Japanese hit the white empires when they were busy with a white on white conflict, but Australians, being far from that conflict, and imminent danger of being conquered by Japan, decided to forget about that conflict and concentrate on the Japanese, and defeated them in Papua New Guinea, despite a disadvantage in numbers and weapons.

            The Turkish empire did OK against white people for a while, because they successfully united most of the Muslim world, while the whites continued to fight each other at the same time as they were being attacked by the ruler of the entire Muslims world. But even so, quite small white Kingdoms kept clobbering them from time to time, most famously Poland. The crusades were similar. The Muslims did OK when united against quarreling Christian Kinglets. The crusaders tended to lack a unified command capable of giving orders and being obeyed, but insofar as the Muslims did OK in those favorable circumstances, they did so under leaders that were culturally middle eastern, but biologically white.

            Whites are wolves to whites, but by and large other peoples are fought over by whites, rather than fought by whites.

            • info says:

              “One black man can defeat one white man. Two white men can defeat a fair number of black men, and a small white army can defeat a black army of any size.”

              If the White on White problem is solved. Then the Boers will soon have chance?

              • Theshadowedknight says:

                Yes. Look at Rourke’s Drift. Even if the Zulus only had spears, they should have spent the lives necessary to swarm the walls and kill everyone inside. They didn’t, and so they took far more casualties in the long term.

            • aswaes says:

              Reminds me of Gibbon:

              The science of war, that constituted the more rational force of Greece and Rome, as it now does of Europe, never made any considerable progress in the East. Those disciplined evolutions which harmonise and animate a confused multitude were unknown to the Persians. They were equally unskilled in the arts of constructing, besieging, or defending, regular fortifications. They trusted more to their numbers than to their courage; more to their courage than to their discipline. The infantry was half-armed, spiritless crowd of peasants, levied in haste by the allurements of plunder, and as easily dispersed by a victory as by a defeat. The monarch and his nobles transported into the camp the pride and luxury of the seraglio. Their military operations were impeded by a useless train of women, eunuchs, horses, and camels; and in the midst of a successful campaign the Persian host was often separated or destroyed by an unexpected famine.

              Don’t tell Taleb.

              Remarkably, Europeans dominate team combat simulator type games, emphasizing coordination, like Dota 2 (not League of Legends though, which is a lower skill game). Individually, Chinese players match or surpass European players. But innovations in game meta (strategy) always come from European teams, and the Chinese copy.

              Unrelatedly, I was astonished to find out that even in times of Tacitus, the Swedes were known to be singularly cucked among Germanics:

              Among the Suiones (says Tacitus) riches are held in honour. They are therefore subject to an absolute monarch, who instead of entrusting his people with the free use of arms, as is practised in the rest of Germany, commits them to the safe custody, not of a citizen, or even of a freedman, but of a slave. The neighbours of the Suiones, the Sitones, are sunk even below servitude; they obey a woman. […] We are only at a loss to conceive by what means riches and despotism could penetrate into a remote corner of the North, and extinguish the generous flame that blazed with such fierceness on the frontier of the Roman provinces, or how the ancestors of those Danes and Norwegians, so distinguished in later ages by their unconquered spirit, could thus tamely resign the great character of German liberty.

              • ten says:

                In the name of the faltering glory of swedish nationalism, i must inject that tacitus also speaks of finns with the faces of men and extremities of beasts, elks with no knees hunted by sawing trees half through, which when the elks sleep against them break, rendering the fallen over elks helpless to rise again.

                While certainly much happened between tacitus and the appearance of history in scandinavia, at that time swedes were well armed, and remained so for many hundreds of years, the vestibule of churches called the weaponhouse, so steel carried by everyone was not taken into the temple. I, of course completely impartially and only as a neutral observer, find his record improbable.

                I still hopefully not in vain believe that the particularly warlike and disciplined nature of historical swedes lies hidden, engaged in the war against reality and sanity, and may yet be rekindled and break free. The punitive campaigns against everyone who ever called us cucks shall be marked among the great villainies of humanity!

            • Anonymous says:

              What do you think is responsible for White military success? You’re saying it wasn’t technology, but more the ability to organize and stick to the plan? The stormtrooper mindset, in essence?

              • jim says:

                Whites smarter than most of the others, more cooperative than the east Asians, more manly than the east asians.

  25. The Cominator says:

    Not sure how unpopular the proposal would be under the current circumstances… it would be a bad idea but I think China is pretty hated over how much Corona chan (well more the hysteria over Corona chan, the hysteria being drummed up by the Cathedral of course but Trump blinked instead of saying that it had to run its course) is ruining everything.

    Part of the next trade war talks should be insisting that China crack down on their germ breeding wildlife markets with the same ruthlessness they crack down on their Muslim problem. 3 virus scares in twenty years is enough.

    • alf says:

      You do realize you are burning through your social capital with your repeated ‘let’s completely ignore the virus’ bunkum..

      • The Cominator says:

        I’ll get it all back when its widely realized that we’ve ruined the economy over something that will end up killing less people than the seasonal flu.

        • alf says:

          As posted below, it seems both more deadly and more infectious than seasonal flu.

          • Yul_Bornhold says:

            We talk about statistics or infection rates all we like but last year’s flu didn’t cause the morgues to overflow in Italy. We’ve read many accounts of doctors describing their personal experiences with the pandemic as the worst situation they’ve ever encountered. Sometimes, it’s better to make one-to-one comparisons instead of autistic statistical wrangling.

            I don’t know how bad this will be. An enormous set of secondary factors makes the fallout impossible to predict. For all that, this will be the worst thing to befall westerners in living memory. (Possible exception for those whose memory stretches back to the great depression or lived in WWII warzones.) Might not be such a shock in the Slav-lands. By all accounts, the situation after the fall of the USSR was rather unpleasant.

            • The Cominator says:

              Muh Italy

              Italy is an extreme outlier for whatever reason and their lockdown obviously has failed. After this 14 day period Trump needs to give a speech about the need that we are going to have to accept some causalties.

              Too many narcissistic people in our society who think they are going to live forever another indirect consequence of pretending that women are equal to men and the lack of a sane state religion.

              • Yul_Bornhold says:

                “for whatever reason”

                lol

              • pdimov says:

                >Italy is an extreme outlier

                Not that extreme. Italy on March 16:

                24747 cases, 3590 new
                1809 deaths, 368 new

                Spain on March 21:

                24926 cases, 4946 new
                1326 deaths, 324 new

                Italy is just five days ahead.

              • jim says:

                The shit is hitting the fan in Italy, in a society that has become unaccustomed to soldiering on in the face of significant casualties.

                It may well be that Trump will soon need to give an inspirational speech about soldiering on in the face of significant casualties, but leaders that have to give that inspiring and much needed speech usually lose power after the crisis.

            • jim says:

              > We talk about statistics or infection rates all we like but last year’s flu didn’t cause the morgues to overflow in Italy.

              Statistics tend to be unreliable, because there are so many stages in the processing of the data that are vulnerable to politics and progressive piety.

              And peer reviewed studies are worse, usually being concocted to at best mislead.

              Anecdote is unreliable, but these days, everything is unreliable. Anecdotes can be selected to be misleading, or just manufactured out of thin air, but you can trace the chain of transmission back to the original observer, and ask if someone is grinding an axe.

              Namefags never speak the truth – they will not say anything that cannot be found in Cathedral sources, because so many things are crimethoughts these days that a namefag knows that if he were to speak his own knowledge from his own experience, he would likely unknowingly commit a thoughtcrime.

        • pdimov says:

          >over something that will end up killing less people than the seasonal flu

          That may well happen, because of the measures undertaken, and people will learn precisely the wrong lesson from it.

          Then when the real one hits, we’re all dead.

          Consider this a rehearsal. Real enough to give us a preview, and yet only kills old people, so not an existential threat.

          • Fred says:

            This is basically the Y2K-bug argument: the reason why planes didn’t drop out of the sky is because of all the Y2K prep, and had it not been undertaken there would indeed have been planes dropping out of the sky, etc.

            In reality, what would have happened is that your electricity bill would have read FOR PERIOD 01-DEC-1999 – 01-FEB-1900 or something until your electricity utility updated their billing system.

            The measures taken to control this coronavirus should likewise control every other virus (eg. influenza), so we might be able to use changes in death rates for other viruses to infer the usefulness of coronavirus control measures.

      • pdimov says:

        >your social capital

        LOL.

    • alf says:

      Let me back that up a bit with two things I’ve learned about the virus so far:
      – mortality about one percent
      – very infectious

      If you care about your constituents, you take those things serious.

      • The Cominator says:

        1. Mortality about one percent MAYBE and that was BEFORE the anti-viral treatment (Hydroxycloraquine combined with Azithromycin) was known. This is no 1918 influenza.

        2. Infectious really only in cold densely populated areas and on airplanes (and the airplane thing is easily solved mandatory masks and gloves on flights)… most of the causalties likely to be old democrats in NYC Boston and other Northern cities. The idea that everyone is going to get this bug is based on computer models not what we’ve observed… its just like “global warming”.

        3. Its an RNA virus, Retroviruses notoriously mutate rapidly towards weaker versions of themselves. If this spreads to many many people the death rate will massively decline by that time.

        4. An economic depression if it lingers will destroy Trump and put the left back in power and they will kill millions…

        Yes I care more about Trump staying in power and the economy then saving a very few older people in liberal cities.

        • BC says:

          Yes I care more about Trump staying in power and the economy then saving a very few older people in liberal cities.

          My parents live in such an area. If you’re going to advocate for their deaths, then you are enemy.

          • The Cominator says:

            I feel for you but they should take a road trip (not via plane) to a warmer area for a little while, try to wear gloves when gassing up until they get to the warmer zone…

            Even if they get it… if they get a fever and shortness of breath tell them to insist on the Hydrocloraquine and Azithromycin regimen early. If so they should be in no danger.

            • BC says:

              Listen you little shit, I’d sooner see you up against a wall than watch them die because of your shitty nonsense. I’m having enough trouble convincing my extended family to take this seriously and not be stupid about it because idiots keep telling them it’s not a big deal. I’m already quite worried that my extended family will get infected and then get my parents infected from them. I don’t need another nutcase urging people to get infected and spreading that stupidity to others because it will “help Trump” and that “it’s just the flu, bro” bullshit.

              Trump’s response to this pandemic will either show he has the quality to lead a nation through this Crisis thus be worthy to rule. Idiots like you will only harm me, my own, and Trump.

              • The Cominator says:

                “Trump’s response to this pandemic will either show he has the quality to lead a nation through this Crisis thus be worthy to rule. Idiots like you will only harm me, my own, and Trump.”

                If we are in a depression in November Trump will probably not survive no matter what the pandemic situation is. If Trump loses we are in far greater danger from the left than we are from this virus, I may well be up against the wall alongside of you then. If your parents go to the rural south for a little while they have almost no chance of getting this and even if they get this the antiviral if taken early should save them.

                You are thinking emotionally instead of rationally, my old man is 79 himself.

        • BC says:

          Yes I care more about Trump staying in power and the economy then saving a very few older people in liberal cities.

          My parents live in such an area. If you’re going to advocate for their deaths, then you are my enemy.

        • alf says:

          Have not personally observed mortality rate, but have personally observed an impressive infection rate. Not sure if that is solved as easily as you claim.

          As for anti-viral medication; perhaps. Few successful anti-viral treatments known. To suddenly have an effective treatment for one would be more of an exception than the rule.

          Most people care more about the virus than about the economy, which is to say: they’d rather have their loved ones not die instead of a smaller paycheck for a month. Trump should take this serious.

          • The Cominator says:

            The anti-viral absolutely works. It has not been “peer reviewed” but the experiments with it have been repeated in many places by many people.

            That is the standard of science, the old scientific method, we like and by that standard it works.

          • Anonymous 2 says:

            I expect the economic outcome of this to be rather worse than one smaller paycheck, but nevertheless, I too would prefer not to have my parents dead.

            • alf says:

              I expect the economic outcome of this to be rather worse than one smaller paycheck

              Yes that is wishful thinking on my part.

          • James says:

            By all indications Chloroquine will prevent the vast majority if deaths. Even so, we need measures to mitigate spread to ensure providers aren’t overwhelmed.

    • Karl says:

      At least in Germany, many are grateful for Corona! Merkel closed the borders and suspended the settlement programme. She’d never have done this without Corona.

      Some politicians close to Merkel are infected. Maybe she’ll die. Given her age and strange shakes she’d have an improved chance! (by the way Alf, fatality rates seem to be above 4% if you look at closed cases, not 1%).

      Getting the borders closed is well worth a recession, or even a depresseion. Of course, that is just the situation in Germany. Your priorities in other parts of the world might be different

    • ten says:

      You are working with shit numbers and a shit model and your arguments do not even stick together.

      Being massively infectious, an uncontrolled propagation would infect the majority of any population. Any lowball lethality figure would have it crush the seasonal flu by absolute necessity. Stop repeating this moronic fucking nonsense.

      A realistic lethality figure with medical response ranging from zero to inadequate will be higher. A worst case lethality figure will indeed be the spanish flu.

      You make it sound like maintaining a full steam economy in a pandemic is peanuts. It is not. You make it sound like people would just suck it up if trump told them to. They would not, regardless of any dubious wins from doing so.

      Sweden tried it and no single event has ever turned a greater amount of people to outright insurrection mode, screaming for the blood of the irresponsible progressives pushing this line – your idea of “hysteria” being a cathedral ploy is also bullshit. This may even be the one great mistake from which they will not recover, even though nothing really happened yet. Now everyone, even their supporters, know they had their pants around their ankles, lied cluelessly and backfooted under pressure because their initial response was just surrendering to the knowledge they have let the entire country slip so far this is now an unmanageable problem, which it would not have been 50 or even 30 years ago.

      Your description is lunacy and your prescription is suicide, and the notion Trumps reelection chances would tank more by consciously letting thousands die is mind bogglingly deranged.

      • ten says:

        The medications maybe actually are real and will avert the entire thing. That is, in that case, you being saved by the bell, not you being right.

      • The Cominator says:

        “A realistic lethality figure with medical response ranging from zero to inadequate will be higher. A worst case lethality figure will indeed be the spanish flu.”

        Bwahahahahahahahahahahahah. There is absolutely no universe where this comes close to Spanish flu numbers and the fact that you think its going to come anywhere close is insane, what are you smoking and where can I get some.

        • ten says:

          What are the lethality numbers with completely overwhelmed healthcare? Maximum realistic infection % * maximum realistic death percentage, possibly with wave after wave of reinfection without immunity, possibly with worse subsequent infections. I really don’t understand where you are coming from here.

          Lucky strikes! (sadly i quit smoking for the boring reasons. i really miss it)

          • The Cominator says:

            Spanish flu was airborne and at least 10x as lethal…. This isnt airborne. Retrovirus almost never mutate to a stronger version… almost always the opposite so new seasonal waves likely to be far weaker.

            • pdimov says:

              Of course it’s airborne. (It also has already mutated to a stronger version – the one that’s currently circulating.)

              • The Cominator says:

                No it actually mutated to a weaker version. You are apparently right that its not a retrovirus (I had mistakenly thought that all RNA viruses were retroviruses but this is apparently not the case).

                • pdimov says:

                  https://academic.oup.com/nsr/advance-article/doi/10.1093/nsr/nwaa036/5775463

                  “Although the L type (∼70%) is more prevalent than the S type (∼30%), the S type was found to be the ancestral version.”

                  “Human intervention may have placed more severe selective pressure on the L type, which might be more aggressive and spread more quickly. On the other hand, the S type, which is evolutionarily older and less aggressive, might have increased in relative frequency due to relatively weaker selective pressure.”

                • The Cominator says:

                  I read the opposite elsewhere when I looked into it but maybe it was wrong.

            • pdimov says:

              Oh, and it’s not a retrovirus.

              • jim says:

                It is an RNA virus. All retroviruses are in a sense RNA viruses, but they are not necessarily called RNA viruses.

                • Not Tom says:

                  Retroviruses are RNA viruses, but RNA viruses are not necessarily retroviruses.

        • Ron says:

          Man what are you talking about?

          Even w/ ventalators and doctors for every man who gets infected, you are still talking about eighteen million deaths at a 1% rate for about 180 million men.

          Thats in the US alone.

          But its not going to be 1%, its going to be far higher bc we do not have ventilators and doctors for everyone that catches this . And at a certain point you arent going to even have doctors af all bc they are going to be staying home

          Hopefully the anti-malarial drugs will slow this down, but we need to implement social distancing. AND shut down all borders.

          • The Cominator says:

            Border shutdowns fine the social distancing is killing Trump’s economy and perhaps his reelection prospects. Its better to accept the causalties (which I’m skeptical about anyway) than to accept an economic depression.

            • Not Tom says:

              You know what’s even worse than metaphorically “killing” Trump’s economy? Literally killing 5-8% of his [mostly Boomer] voters.

              Elections are being won on very thin margins in the rust belt and other swing states. I hate democracy, you hate democracy, we all hate democracy, but democracy is what we have right now, and Trump needs voters more than he needs the Dow Jones to be at 30k again.

              Polls are showing Trump approval to be basically the same as historical levels. It is, sadly, down from recent highs – but if you actually look at the average, you will see that he took the biggest hit before social distancing, and recovered the most after. Most voters approve of the measures he is taking, even if it is hurting some of them economically in the short term.

              Yet another case where data is more useful than wild speculation.

              • BC says:

                Cominator’s political analysis is childish at best. When the China Flu started spreading it became obvious the election would become about how Trump was handling it. He did poorly at the start mostly because the CDC fucked him and he didn’t come across with the sort of it attitude people needed.

                Trump hasn’t been very good in the sort of being a father to the nation role that good presidents project, but he’s gotten better at it over time.

                • jim says:

                  > Cominator’s political analysis is childish at best.

                  Such comments generate heat but not light. Show that his analysis is incorrect. Don’t tell him he is childish.

                • BC says:

                  Cominator observes the shift from Trump’s great economy to the the coronavirus pandemic. He urges to do everything possible to ignore the pandemic to the point that he recommends letting millions of people die and have Trump focus on the economy instead. He fails to understand that the election shifted the moment the Pandemic hit and that Trump’s response to the virus became the only election issue that mattered. If Trump does a good job dealing with the crisis, Trump will win reelection and even if the Economy is in the dumps because people care more about their family being alive than about money. If Trump focuses mostly on the economy then he loses reelection because the Democrats will just run ads about how people’s grandmas were dying while showing clips about Trump caring about money, which is the path Cominator advocates.

                • The Cominator says:

                  because people care more about their family being alive than about money.

                  Maybe I’m looking at it wrong because I’m an EXTREME cynic and kind of always have been but…

                  Machiavelli in the Prince discusses this question directly and says the opposite and I think he is correct. If a man truly loves a woman who dies he’ll keep caring (as I know from experience) and I think parents never forget about their children when they die… but everyone else people get over them dying and get over them dying quickly especially if its plausibly natural causes (if a man’s parents are murdered outright thats different). People will not be over being in an ongoing depression. If there is another depression so soon after 2008 I think the mass of people are just going to decide that not only do they want the Democrat they want the Democrat to go full scale communism…

                  Not Tom. The boomers who will die (and I remain skeptical it will be that many) are heavily in northern cities… republican boomers mostly move south and even when they don’t nearly always leave the cities.

                • pdimov says:

                  There is no such thing as “Trump’s economy”. Most of “the economy” is in China and Trump has no control over it. The economic crisis was already preordained, which is why the stock market tanked (and the CEOs had already resigned to claim their golden parachutes) while Trump was still cluelessly tweeting “but the flu is worse”.

                  Even if “the economy” weren’t in China, the dilemma is still false. When people start dying “the economy” would still have ground to a halt regardless.

            • Not Tom says:

              Incidentally, have you stopped to consider the possibility that America’s still-extant dependency on China, not domestic social distancing, is what’s causing so much of the disruption?

              Trump has managed to insource a lot, for which he should be lauded as a hero. But China and possibly some of the other Asian countries (SK, Japan? I forget exactly) have banned all exports. USA being the financialized import economy that it is, that’s going to cause some pain.

              You’re making an implicit claim that you understand the economics of the situation better than anyone else – including Trump himself – a claim that you have not demonstrated successfully thus far. What if social distancing is only responsible for say 10% or even 25% of the economic losses? How good a trade does 2 million excess deaths for only a 5% boost in employment and a 20% index recovery sound to you?

              • Fred says:

                The US isn’t a highly trade-exposed economy, by global standards at least. Much of what trade exposure it does have is with Canada and Mexico.

          • Not Tom says:

            You might need to check your math there – 1% of 180 million is 1.8 million.

            Of course, that’s still orders of magnitude more than the flu, and ICU and hospital bed availability is a major issue.

        • Brad says:

          There’s a very good chance that it could’ve been similar to Spanish Flu if our medical knowledge was worse. We now know that aspirin and it’s derivatives cause it to be much worse, bad enough to put a 12 year old on a vent. During the second wave of the Spanish flu, ie, the one responsible for most of the deaths, aspirin was heavily marketed as a treatment for flu symptoms, and in comparatively massive doses. Children were not prescribed aspirin, and their death rates remained largely the same through both waves

    • It annoys me that you are a smart man not seeing an utterly obvious thing. It is not about how many people die. It is all about the people who cannot get an appendicitis operation because the hospital beds are at 150% capacity with corona patients getting their lungs pumped out. That is, corona makes every other hospitalization-requiring healthcare just not happening. You are not stupid. Can you understand that it is all about a scramble for a scarce resource of hospital beds or not?

      • The Cominator says:

        Hospital beds are a very artificial bottleneck due to cathedral credentialism and bureaucracy… If we ever reach a capacity problem that can be solved rather easily.

        Italy’s problems with this that we don’t see elsewhere are i suspect are self inflicted by its current left wing government probably under orders from Brennan or something like that. Ditto for Spain.

        Trump just ordered the fda to put corona on cloroquines label, i think the hysteria will start to fade at this point.

        • Bob says:

          >Hospital beds are a very artificial bottleneck due to cathedral credentialism and bureaucracy… If we ever reach a capacity problem that can be solved rather easily.

          We can just easily put aside the Cathedral and do what you, sorry I mean Trump, would like? The coup is complete? We can put aside all the Cathedral hang-ups that prevent the elite from cooperating or us from solving the women problem? Low-fertility is just an easy solution away? Genocide is a distant problem because small things like the Cathedral bureaucracy will be solved easily?

          • The Cominator says:

            Trump has already announced measures to be invoked if more hospital beds are needed.

            • Bob says:

              Do you read what you write?

              How many things has Trump tried to do that the Cathedral opposed and solved it rather easily?

              • The Cominator says:

                Them trying to drag their feet and obstruct is not going to work under a state of emergency.

                No bureaucrat with his lawbooks is going to be able to stop Trump from ordering field hospitals opened under the current circumstances… and generally they won’t try.

                Now the FDA (the absolute worst agency in the US government by far) is apparently getting snitty about Trump’s orders in regards to the rapid deployment of Cloraquine and they ARE arrogant enough to try but this isn’t going to be tolerated. I’m glad that Trump is likely to come out of this with a special hatred for the FDA.

                • Bob says:

                  Please answer my question:

                  How many things has Trump tried to do that the Cathedral opposed and solved it rather easily?

                  I ask because you’re spouting bullcrap and when I ask about it, you spout more bullcrap.

                • The Cominator says:

                  “How many things has Trump tried to do that the Cathedral opposed and solved it rather easily?”

                  I don’t know exactly what you mean by “solved it rather easily”. Almost everything Trump has tried to do has been opposed by the Cathedral.

                  Trump has generally got his way on policy despite Cathedral opposition… the exception being prosecuting corrupt people and Democrats within the government which he has had zero success with so far.

                  They are not even going to try to oppose having him open field hospitals should that be needed but I doubt its going to be needed.

                • Bob says:

                  >I don’t know exactly what you mean by “solved it rather easily”.

                  I mean it in the same way you said: “If we ever reach a capacity problem that can be solved rather easily.”

                  You say he will solve this problem, caused by the Cathedral, rather easily. Just like everything else you write, it smells like bullcrap, so give us an example where he’s been able to do it before.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Who the fuck are you?

                  I’ve already answered you, Trump has gotten his way on almost everything in regards to what he promised to do (up until he blinked and gave into the panicmongers on this fake pandemic but its looks like we’re going to be out of it soon, the Cloraquine thing is going to start calming down the hysteria) the big exception being hes been utterly unable to prosecute his enemies or purge the intelligence agencies.

                  Hes not going to have any trouble opening field hospitals if there is a shortage in “muh hospital beds” due to this . But with the possible exception of Seattle I do not anticipate any shortage in muh hospital beds.

                • jim says:

                  The head of the FDA is, predictably, resisting on Chloroquine. I predict he will get trampled in the rush.

                  This is a rerun of what happened on test kits. The CDC cannot handle or understand the modern technology that the Chinese used, so they used an older technology that did not actually work, giving a small number of unreliable test results painfully slowly. Trump successfully bypassed them overnight.

                  And, of course, the press announced that Trump was lying on test kits, and proven he is lying because the CDC disagreed with him. Expect similarly irrelevant indignation to be ignored on Chloroquine as it was on test kits.

                  Trump can simply order regulation suspended. When he orders people to do something, like build the wall, they slow walk it. But when he orders regulations revoked, people immediately start ignoring those irritating regulations, and the bureaucrat’s feeble efforts to enforce the regulations just stop working. The bureaucrat thinks he is mighty, but without the president behind him, he discovers he is just another soyboy whiner. Somehow, mysteriously, his refusal to accept form B734-093983-A601 strangely no longer reduces billionaires to groveling and trembling terror

                  This is why restoring coal mining, oil pumping, and fracking went so fast and so smoothly. Trump just had to grant permission, and the jobs came back, while building the wall did not start for a long time, and is still being slow walked.

                  Where the power of the sovereign’s overly mighty servants rests on doing stuff private citizens are not allowed to do, it is very difficult for the sovereign to control them. He cannot stop them doing the things they want to do, nor make them do the things he wants them to do. When it rests on power to prohibit private citizens from doing things, however, it is very easy for the sovereign to cut his overly mighty servants down to size. I predict a sudden shrinkage of the head of the FDA.

                • Bob says:

                  >Trump has gotten his way on almost everything in regards to what he promised to do

                  Come on then, list them. Don’t say, “The wall”. We all know he’s building a wall. Tell us what he’s done, easily, while opposed to the Cathedral.

                  If you weren’t a retarded sperg, who can’t help but poop everywhere you lay your eyes, you could have just answered with something to back up your claim. An example, an anecdote, a link, two premises linked by logic. But when questioned, you repeated your original nonsense, then reaffirmed your bullcrap, then repeated it again, then claimed you’d already given an answer.

                  You make wild claims, without anything to back it up. Jim uses his voice-of-god style because he writes essays to make his point, which he’ll reference when necessary. You make ridiculous, insane, comments, stating them as fact, without showing your work, explaining your premises, describing your logic, citing your sources, or giving any reasons how somebody could come to such a conclusion. At most you’ll make another confident assertion to back up your previous assertion.

                  >Hospital beds are a very artificial bottleneck due to cathedral credentialism and bureaucracy… If we ever reach a capacity problem that can be solved rather easily.

                  >Trump has already announced measures to be invoked if more hospital beds are needed.

                  >No bureaucrat with his lawbooks is going to be able to stop Trump

                  >Trump has generally got his way on policy despite Cathedral opposition

                  >They are not even going to try to oppose having him open field hospitals

                  >I’ve already answered you, Trump has gotten his way on almost everything in regards to what he promised to do

                  >Hes not going to have any trouble opening field hospitals

                  Can your brain notice a pattern?

                • The Cominator says:

                  You are asking me to put in a lot of effort to answer a monumentally stupid question from what seems like a monumentally stupid and annoying noob poster. But if you want examples…

                  The wall is one example but he had a lot of delays on the wall, that has gone less smoothly then most of his agenda.

                  Slashing regulations and bringing the jobs back, the Cathedral’s agenda was to destroy all economic activity in flyover country via excessive regs.

                  Stopping the illegal immigration flood, even though the Cathedral organized “caravans” and tried to use lawfare to say that Trump had to let them in. They still got stopped. The Cathedral really doesn’t like “remain in Mexico” or “The Public Charge Rule”.

                  “You make wild claims, without anything to back it up. Jim uses his voice-of-god style because he writes essays to make his point, which he’ll reference when necessary. You make ridiculous, insane, comments, stating them as fact, without showing your work, explaining your premises, describing your logic, citing your sources, or giving any reasons how somebody could come to such a conclusion. At most you’ll make another confident assertion to back up your previous assertion.”

                  Or maybe you’re just a noob (and if you aren’t you are an infrequent poster) who is asking stupid questions and I’m spending too much time justifying myself to you already.

                  While I’m certainly taking a position on Corona-chan that is unpopular with some its not going to matter when I turn out to be right and less than 1000 people die and the hospitals are not overwhelmed.

                • Bob says:

                  >You are asking me to put in a lot of effort

                  Weak. Why not answer it the first time and not reply five times with nonsense?

                  >Don’t say, “The wall”. Tell us what he’s done, easily
                  >The wall is one example, that has gone less smoothly
                  Thank you, for that.

                  >Slashing regulations and bringing the jobs back

                  Wow, you can’t bring yourself to be specific, can you? I’ll help. Fracking. Jim’s talked about it, loads. You could have said, “Trump greenlit all the fracking applications held up by Obama, which stimulated gdp by 3%, a quarter, and brought jobs back to flyover country.” Then cite Jim. You couldn’t even do that one right.

                  >Stopping the illegal immigration flood

                  Deportations have gone done from 338k average per year under Obama (Googling isn’t hard) to 262k average under Trump (Sources aren’t hard to find).
                  “ICE made 143,099 administrative arrests in 2019, down 10 percent from a year earlier and less than half the number recorded at the peak in 2010 and 2011.” (Ibid)
                  Do you have any sources on border crossings that aren’t border arrests? (If you like, I can explain why the two don’t correlate. I can small words if you need.)

                  Why did it take you so long to answer one, simple question? You couldn’t even answer it right when you tried.

                  >Or maybe you’re just a noob (and blah blah blah I’m butthurt for being called out

                  >and I’m spending too much time justifying myself to you already

                  You’re not fooling anyone about wasting your time. You fling your poop around here, *constantly*.

                  >While I’m certainly taking a position on Corona-chan

                  Wrong thread, dude. You keep dodging, but I’m calling out your crap about Trump accomplishing coup-complete actions in your fantastic play world specifically and your idiocy in general.

                • The Cominator says:

                  I never said he accomplished coup complete actions, In fact I specifically said he has has no success arresting Democrats or their pet bureaucrats.

                  You are apparently making a ridiculous argument that Trump opening field hospitals to provide more beds under a state of emergency caused by a pandemic scare is a coup complete problem. That assertion is as retarded as you are.

                • Bob says:

                  >I never said he accomplished coup complete actions

                  Gosh dude, *my* argument is that he can’t just easily bypass Cathedral bureaucracy because it’s a coup-complete action. Jim’s given a good counter to that, but you can’t even comprehend what people are writing, let alone respond.

                  >In fact I specifically said he has has no success arresting Democrats or their pet bureaucrats.

                  Again, you said Trump could easily do something. I asked for prior examples. You give not-examples.

                  >You are apparently making a ridiculous argument that Trump opening field hospitals to provide more beds under a state of emergency caused by a pandemic scare is a coup complete problem. That assertion is as retarded as you are.

                  It’s so retarded you can only muster your two brain cells to repeat your assertions, over and over, failing to grasp my point, Jim’s point, Jim’s counter to my points, and, my personal favorite, what you’ve written previously.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Your argument was idiotic and so are you and I don’t have to impress you. Notice Jim clearly thought your argument was wrong and stupid.

                  Why should I have to list examples for an idiot noob when we are ALL aware of multiple ways Trump got his way over the Cathedral. You then moving the goalposts to but in muh arguement I was talking about coup complete actions (which I clearly wasn’t) doesn’t mean you won anything.

                  You think you can get cool guy points (which is in itself pathetic) by picking on me because I’m taking a somewhat unpopular stance that the entire Corona-pandemic hysteria is a Democrat plot. Unfortunately that is a bad bet because my view is going to be vindicated. The insane Democrat/Cathedral meltdown over Cloraquine is already proving me right.

                • Bob says:

                  >Your argument was idiotic and so are you, but I can’t be bothered to even try to rebut it. But I will whine and whine.

                  >Notice Jim clearly thought your argument was wrong and stupid.

                  Jim in one post did what you said you did do, then didn’t need to do, then wouldn’t do because blah blah blah.

                  >Why should I have to list examples for an idiot noob when we are ALL aware of multiple ways Trump got his way over the Cathedral.

                  Argument by consensus?
                  “Give me an example.”
                  “Here’s a not-example.”
                  “Please give me an example.”
                  “I don’t have to. You’re dumb and I’m smart. We all know I’m right.”

                  >You then moving the goalposts to but in muh arguement I was talking about coup complete actions

                  You: “Trump can easily do this.”
                  Me: “That’s a coup complete action. When has he done something similar?”
                  You: “He can easily do it.”
                  Me: “Give an example.”
                  You: “I didn’t say it was coup complete.”
                  Me: “You didn’t, I did. Keep up.”
                  You: “You’re changing the goal posts. You didn’t win!”

                  >You think you can get cool guy points (which is in itself pathetic) by picking on me because I’m taking a somewhat unpopular stance

                  Bro, I don’t care about your stance on the virus. When have I mentioned your stance on the virus? I wanted an similar example of Trump’s actions. You dodged, then tried and failed to give them, then denied you had to. Jim did, in one post. I said you’re dumb for making assertions without arguments or examples. You said I just disagree about the virus. I said you’re dumb for making assertions without arguments or examples. You said I was moving the goal posts and whined like tard who can’t fling his poop anymore.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Jim doesn’t object to argument by actual reactionary consensus he objects to argument by FALSE consensus you fucking idiot.

                • Bob says:

                  >Jim doesn’t object to argument by actual reactionary consensus he objects to argument by FALSE consensus you fucking idiot.

                  Dude, I didn’t say you broke Jim’s rules. I said your assertion was flawed. Can you get anything right?

        • You certainly have a point – why doesn’t Italy use the military to erect field hospitals. But I think it depends not only on the elected government but also on the permanent government and pozzed military top brass. Trump will give an order – and then not sure at all that anything useful will happen.

          • The Cominator says:

            European countries have extremely small and weak miltaries but Italy’s incompetence in this crisis seems deliberate in order to encourage hysteria elsewhere. Nowhere else has done nearly as bad with this crisis.

            If Trump were disobeyed here I think he would just start firing military brass until it was done. The now defunct Cruise Ships have apparently already volunteered to be hospital ships as well.

            The other thing is with regulation repeals state governors could open field hospitals with the National Guard… and lets say only Red States did it… perhaps they could volunteer to take extra people from blue states where the governor’s are acting as saboteurs.

            But this is mostly academic outside of Washington State and MAYBE New York I don’t think any such hospital flood is going to occur.

            • jim says:

              I see a sudden shortage of Chloroquine. Therefore, it is being immediately used.

              This should stop the epidemic in its tracks.

              It takes six days for the treated person to be virus free. In a few weeks, the crisis should be yesterday’s news.

              Time to buy stocks and shares.

              There have been blinded tests, in which some patients got the treatment, and some got placebo, but the FDA insists there have been no peer reviewed blinded tests – because anything that comes out of peer review, being generated by consensus behind closed doors, is usually a lie, and the FDA, being incompetent and corrupt, insists on a process that necessarily generates comforting lies.

              Truth by consensus works for moral truths, since the idea is to have everyone playing by the same rules, and aware of other people’s expectations, so people have to agree on what the rules are, but empirical truths constructed by consensus are unlikely to be true, and the more so when the consensus is constructed in secret on the basis of secret evidence and secret considerations. The social dynamics of consensus inevitably results in accelerating drift away from reality on empirical questions – consensus generates a truth that is socially constructed, and socially constructed reality will not hold a bridge up, nor enable a man to bear children.

              • The Cominator says:

                Jim completely agree… the hysteria should start fading now.

                Trump actually I think screwed up in allowing the panicmongers to paint him into a situation where everything was shut down but the Cloraquine thing I think comes in time to save the economy from too much permanent damage… other than whatever poison is in the Democrat legislation so he should survive this.

                “and the FDA, being incompetent and corrupt”

                Nothing else in the government comes close, its really hard to describe in words just how awful the FDA is. Its not that they want comforting lies the agency just has the mentality of Mordac in the Dilbert comic strips but instead of preventing information services their mentality is they are the preventing the progress of medical science.

                if it were up to them Cloraquine would be pulled from the market (to prevent doctors from using it off label for this) now and made to go through a 4 year 3 billion dollar outcome trial before it could be used economic damage and lives lost be damned. Yes the FDA is really that awful and as bad as the rest of the federal bureaucracy is no other agency comes close.

                • jim says:

                  Interestingly, the blinded American study showing Chloroquine highly effective was published on Google Docs and promptly taken down as a violation of their terms of service.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Is it available elsewhere.

                  Its not surprising… this whole hysteria over this “pandemic” that is going to kill less people than the regular flu was just Mueller 2.0 so no doubt those behind it are very unhappy about the Cloraquine news.

                • simplyconnected says:

                  The original study was taken down by google.
                  This one was still available, not sure how they relate:

                  https://drive.google.com/file/d/186Bel9RqfsmEx55FDum4xY_IlWSHnGbj/view

                • jim says:

                  This is the identical study.

                  It looks like it was resubmitted to google and the second time not taken down.

                  But the press is still fearmongering, even though loads of people self administer chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine to prevent and treat malaria and no one raises an eyebrow, nor are there any reports of death due to self administration and self prescription for malaria. It is generally an over the counter drug where malaria is a problem, and it should be an over the counter drug where the China virus is a problem.

                  Trump has bypassed the recalcitrant bureaucracy through his direct connection to the private sector. One major company is ramping up to produced large amounts of hydroxychloroquine, and two other are donating their stockpiles to hospitals.

                • Pooch says:

                  The silver lining to all this is the limits on immigration do to the state of emergency. Hopefully, Trump can keep those in place as the economy opens back up, but that may be wishful thinking.

                • Mister Grumpus says:

                  I must chime in that I, too, was horrified when Dr Fauci kept stonewalling on the HCQ thing.

                  I also remember when the French fellows had published their report on http://www.covidtrial.io, and then a Fox News fellow asked one the cat ladies at Trump’s podium about it.

                  “Well, yeah, there’s some anecdotal evidence of things working in a cell culture maybe, but…”

                  So either this chair-stuffing bitch genuinely hadn’t heard about it, or she had, and just didn’t like the idea of saving millions of lives if it meant also coloring outside the lines a little and accepting wildcat information from out-of-house.

                  “Excuse me, but is this just another career opportunity for you, or are there actually many thousands of people desperately hoping to avoid death this month?”

                  It was like a horror movie.

                  And that’s it. Jim said himself that Whites are naturally “fissiparous”. Disloyal to the herd. And there it is in action.

                  It’s little moments like these when I, for one, realize just how little these people actually care about citizens at all. None of them actually care. There’s no care there. We’re just career fodder for them.

              • Pooch says:

                A quick google search shows the Catherdral is derangingly against Chloroquine. They must know it works and don’t want Trump to get the credit. Therefore I imagine they’ll fight him tooth and nail on its use. Do we know it’s being used in the US yet? Or other countries? The daily death rate is still growing in the US and Europe and hitting new highs each day. I’m not convinced it’s time to buy yet.

                • Pooch says:

                  My understanding is it’s only being used in clinical trials currently. Id imagine the Cathedral will do everything in its power to prevent it from exiting the trial stage.

                • jim says:

                  I see a run on chloroquine. Trump is bypassing the unresponsive and defiant bureaucracy – a tactic he has regularly deployed.

                  Yes, it will be trialed forever and the peer reviewed trials will supposedly be inconclusive forever, and peer review will never allow it to exit the peer reviewed trials. Meanwhile, it will be trialed in trials that defy peer review, and widely used – is already being widely used.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Its being used, the Cathedral is against it because this was supposed to destroy Trump’s economy and take him out. The corona virus hysteria was (despite what shills like Not Tom and other said) always merely a Democrat plot that never was going to reach any of the dire projections (the dire projections being akin to global warming projections) but they desperately want to keep the hysteria and economic destruction growing.

                  They will not succeed.

                • jim says:

                  Google docs took the paper down

                  “At day6 post-inclusion, 70% of hydroxychloroquine-treated patients were
                  virologicaly cured comparing with 12.5% in the control group (p= 0.001). ”

                  Is a violation of Google’s terms of service, much as if you post data that casts doubt on Jews being made into lampshades or global warming, it is a violation of Google’s terms of service.

                • Pooch says:

                  That’s a new level of evil.

                • Pooch says:

                  Looks like at least one subject was “cured” but still died the next day.

                • jim says:

                  Not true.

                  Subjects that were so ill that they were transferred out of the experimental group were not counted.

                  Neither in the controls, nor in the treatment group.

                  It was legitimate to not count such subjects, because the experimenters could no longer control what medications they were receiving. Did the former treatment subjects continue to receive hydroxychoroquine? I don’t know, and I doubt that those conducting the experiment know.

                • Fred says:

                  They went in full-bore against chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine for a few days there, but it seems to have petered out this weekend.

                  I suspect the reason why is because there was simply too much information already in the public domain about the efficacy of chloroquine for any campaign against it to be successful – the cat was already out of the bag, so the press decided to cut their losses and conceded defeat on chloroquine.

                  As for why they went in against chloroquine, there could be any number of reasons: reflexively opposition to Trump and getting paid off by big pharma (who would rather see people buy expensive name-brand drugs that are in patent, not cheap generics that aren’t) are the obvious ones that come to mind immediately, but there might be others.

                • Pooch says:

                  Has not petered out. They are pushing chloroquine poisonings in Nigeria now.

                • Fred says:

                  The chloroquine poisoning meme is a significant climb-down because it doesn’t pretend that chloroquine isn’t an effective treatment.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Yes Fred, also everyone who got Cloraquine poisoning to my understanding took way more Cloraquine than they were supposed to for this.

                • Fred says:

                  Looks like I spoke too soon – they’re gearing up for another major push against chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine:

                  https://forward.com/news/national/442285/coronavirus-hydroxychloroquine-trump-doctor/

                  Key quote:

                  “On Monday evening, New York banned off-label use of the drug, which is also used to treat lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, outside state-approved clinical trials.”

                  Pence to the rescue:

                  “But on Tuesday afternoon Vice President Mike Pence announced on Fox News that the Food and Drug Administration was approving off-label use of the drug “right now.””

                  In case anyone’s interested (the 2005 study about treating SARS with chloroquine): https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7646092_Chloroquine_is_a_potent_inhibitor_of_SARS_coronavirus_infection_and_spread

                • jim says:

                  They cannot help themselves.

                  It is Trump versus the extremely holy medical establishment, and the extremely holy medical establishment is completely disfunctional.

                  Similarly, the Democrats playing politics over funding the relief bill.

                  But the existing measures involve a great deal of money. Where is Trump getting the money? He stealing it. He ordered money used for unrelated programs to be applied for the emergency.

                  He had legal power to do this for the wall, on the grounds that the president has broad authority to use defense funding as he sees fit, by long established precedent and innumerable acts of congress, but this time he is not bothering with a legal rationale. He just ordered it done, and the bureaucracy, for once, obeyed. They could have dug in their heels and said. “Sorry Mister President, that is illegal. You have to go to Nancy Pelosi, hat in hand, and beg for the money.”, which is what the Democrats expected them to do, so that Nancy could give press conferences on how she is handling the crisis and Trump is not.

              • Not Tom says:

                Time to buy stocks and shares.

                Who are you betting on? I checked this out:

                https://www.pharmacompass.com/manufacturers-suppliers-exporters/chloroquine-phosphate

                Apparently the main manufacturers are Sanofi, BOC Sciences, and a whole bunch of Indian companies. BOC appears to be the only U.S. company. But I can’t find a symbol for them, it does not appear that they are publicly traded.

                So, who do you think wins here?

                • Pooch says:

                  I think he means the whole market. if this truly is the cure, the epidemic goes away.

                • jim says:

                  Bet on stock options, market futures. Currently Zombie Apocalypse is overpriced, and swift return of normality is going cheap.

                  My bet on Zombie Apocalypse is cheap, consisting of dry food, medical equipment, ammunition, and medical supplies. My bet on swift return of normality is very expensive. I am not shorting Zombie apocalypse, but I am long on swift recovery.

                  Don’t bet on drug manufacturers. It is a generic, and betting on pharmaceuticals requires inside information. If you play at that table, you are the pigeon. You are betting against the house at that table.

                • The Cominator says:

                  The problem with options buying on a quick recovery is that the options sellers tend to be big money players who can and will move heaven and earth to make any big money bets on options expire worthless.

                  This is one of those rare instances where you can see capitalists exercise real power… if you are the only guy betting this and your payoff will be insignificant in the scheme of things good but given that there are probably a lot of bets on a quick recovery expect it to be slower than you think.

                • jim says:

                  > The problem with options buying on a quick recovery is that the options sellers tend to be big money players who can and will move heaven and earth to make any big money bets on options expire worthless.

                  Sometimes you are playing at the wrong table, betting against the house. Capitalism does not always work as it is supposed to.

                  But, for the most part, the options market is fair. just as most markets are fair, and when there is a problem, as in the market for lemons, it is not hard to find out there is a problem and adjust your behavior.

                • Not Tom says:

                  The problem with options buying on a quick recovery is that the options sellers tend to be big money players who can and will move heaven and earth to make any big money bets on options expire worthless.

                  If you believe that to be the case, then you should be writing lots and lots of options right now. Free money!

                • The Cominator says:

                  Well it depends on the volume on the options purchases if the call volume is peanuts it wont matter… I would expect a 1987 style rebound myself but not sure of the time frame and it might be delayed if there are a lot of call option bets… Im just saying be careful about betting big on options i personally am not taking either side of that under the current circumstances. But maybe this is the rare occasion where the market is so oversold big call buyers will actually win. It doesnt normally happen though.

                  https://www.investopedia.com/articles/optioninvestor/03/100103.asp

                • Pooch says:

                  Even if Trump wanted to open everything back up isn’t it ultimately up to the Governors of each individual state?

                • The Cominator says:

                  Catastrophe and emergency are a great opportunity to just start arresting people who are causing trouble in the name of national security.

              • Not Tom says:

                Jim completely agree… the hysteria should start fading now.

                That is not what Jim said. The only person using the word “hysteria” is you. One might even say that you appear to be a little… hysterical over this fact.

                What’s the deal here? I’m starting to get the distinct impression that you made a big bet and lost, that you’ve become deeply invested emotionally or financially in this idea.

                Even if we have a cure, it is going to be overwhelmingly used on the 70+ year old patients who desperately need it; therefore, containment measures are still going to be very important. Social distancing, contact tracing, and hopefully a lot of masks.

                Since this has reached (almost?) every country by now, we can make comparisons. Italy isn’t worse than China because of left-wing governments or any such bullshit. Rather, all of the East Asian countries actually did much better than they could have, because they went with early quarantines, large scale contact tracing, and most importantly, masks! From what I understand, it’s just basic etiquette in China/Japan/SK to wear a mask if you’re sick, and while nearly half the population may be wearing masks at certain times of the year, during the outbreak it was more like 95%.

                We’re still not doing any of that in the USA, and cases are multiplying fast. Last week it quadrupled, this week it seems to have multiplied by 10. However, quarantine measures have only been in place for a week, so these would almost all be people who caught it beforehand.

                Everyone else is right here, and you are wrong. If this kills less than the flu – and that’s still in question right now (after all, we have Tamiflu, but people still die) – it will be because of the drastic measures being taken right now. If cases continued to multiply at 10x per week, then even at a 1% mortality rate we’d have 4 million dead in another month.

                • jim says:

                  No psychoanalyzing your opponent.

                  I also have an enormous financial bet on the crisis ending soon, and if it does not end soon, it will hurt me very badly.

                  Trump cannot do what he needs to do, make the government and hospitals treat everyone who has CoVID-19 with hydroxychloroquine.

                  But what he can do and is doing is stop them from denying private citizens access to information and access to hydroxychloroquine.

                • Not Tom says:

                  No psychoanalyzing your opponent.

                  Aren’t there also house rules against repetitiously asserting the same thing over and over again while ignoring criticisms and opposing arguments?

                  I’m betting on the same recovery you are (though I’m considerably more hedged). However, that’s very different from continuing to repeat that it is “hysteria” and that we shouldn’t have taken preventative measures and/or shouldn’t continue to do so. We heard that theory the first 500 times and TC has added precious little new information since then.

                • jim says:

                  True, but as he says, first person on this blog to say “choroquine”, so it would be a very bad idea to censor him.

                  And if he is repeating himself excessively, so are you, and you are provoking the Cominator’s excessive repetition by gratuitously using insulting and provocative language

                • The Cominator says:

                  Jim likewise on the financial thing.

                  Not Tom as for information I posted about Cloraquine here before ANYONE did.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Not Tom what I’m rather pissed that you don’t see that this whole Corona crisis is Mueller 2.0. Some people on our side see it but some people just can’t and it irritates me and I’ll explain why.

                  As for financial bets I anticipated a correct on Corona virus so I sold some stock… but then I bought some back early because I thought Trump would display his usual strength and not give into the people who want to shut down the great economy he built and I’m considerably disappointed that Trump blinked for once.

                  I understand Trump was in a lose lose with all the alarmists talk but the reason he was in a lose lose is because of people like you who believe that CNN and the rest of the Cathedral media and the government bureaucracy have suddenly become honest or ceased their usual tricks and that shattered the normal unity of our side that Trump can rely on… the way the shill Q shattered the unity of our side in regards to firing Jeff Sessions.

                  You think you are being rational and enlightened by believing the experts on the virus but you are actually aiding and abetting the enemy.

                  Its not that the virus is a hoax, its just the virus is not nearly as contangious as the hype suggests. The models of expotential virus spread is just computer model bullshit the same as global warming and even if the virus spread en masse over the US is likely to weaken considerably soon in the same manner as the original SARs outbreak (which was actually both more contangious and deadlier than this) did.

                  And that is why the excessive fear of the virus is hysteria, if you aren’t living in a Northern city you probably aren’t going to get it.

                • jim says:

                  It is yet another flu. The China flu. RNA viruses are always forming new kinds by mutation and hybridization. It is an uncommonly deadly and injurious flu. It kills old people, and causes lung damage in young people, but new flues always evolve towards being relatively innocuous.

                  Lockdowns are appropriate in the early stages, to give it time to evolve into milder forms. The best solution however, would be to give everyone exposed a ten day preventative course of chloroquine, which solution the Cathedral is passionately resisting.

                • The Cominator says:

                  The best course of action per the small study by Professor Didier Raoult (hes French but the paper is in English and its even been muh peer reviewed) is apparently 600mg of HydroxyCloroquine per day and the antibiotic Azithromycin (I don’t remember the dosage) in combination.

                  https://drive.google.com/file/d/186Bel9RqfsmEx55FDum4xY_IlWSHnGbj/view

                • pdimov says:

                  >True, but as he says, first person on this blog to say “choroquine”

                  I don’t think so.

                  https://blog.jim.com/science/novel-corona-virus-sars-cov-2-and-technological-decay/#comment-2420769

                  I, and everyone else who’s been following the news about the virus, knew about chloroquine phosphate at least a week before that, although I can’t prove it with a comment. Of course there was still no “real” study then, but China had nevertheless officially recommended it to WHO.

                  https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/news/coronavirus-covid-19-choroquine-data/

                  (Feb 18. So it wasn’t a week, but a month.)

                • jim says:

                  Cominator’s first reference to chloroquine 2020/03/16 at 9:09 pm

                  First reference on this blog is you: 2020/03/15 at 4:55 pm

                • Pooch says:

                  600+ died in Italy today. Seems a bit more then hysteria.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Something is off with Italy’s numbers… How are they 10x worse than anywhere else?

                • jim says:

                  Insufficient testing, overwhelmed intensive care, and use of obsolete test technology. The mild cases do not show up in their numbers, increasing the relative death rate.

                  Italy got the China flu early, through guest workers directly from China, and realized it late, when their intensive care wards were already overwhelmed.

                • Pooch says:

                  No idea. I don’t think their numbers are off though. I have some family there. Communicating with them on FB and reading Italian news outlets with google translate seems both be in alignment that the situation is quite bad. Many doctors are dieing. I don’t know if it has to do with the older population or what.

                • Pooch says:

                  Even with bad tests 600+ seems like a lot of people to die in 1 day for Italy. 774 total died in the 1st SARS outbreak.

                • pdimov says:

                  > Something is off with Italy’s numbers… How are they 10x worse than anywhere else?

                  “The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus.”

                  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/have-many-coronavirus-patients-died-italy/

                • pdimov says:

                  The explanation of the lower to nonexistent mortality in Germany is similar, except in reverse – they record the patients as dying from other causes unless they’ve already tested positive.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Pdimov good job guess you beat me.

                  BTW more evidence that not all is on the up and up with this “pandemic”. Fauci the lead “non-political expert”… turns out he might not be so non-political.

                  https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/03/20/fauci-love-letter-to-hillary-clinton-surfaces/

                  Another strange coincidence along with Rosenstein’s sister being so highly placed in the CDC.

                  This is yet another example why the Suharto solution is the only way.

                • jim says:

                  The Cathedral, due to influence of big Pharma (this is one of the rare occasions when you can legitimately blame capitalists, though not capitalism, because the evildoers are quasi statal, businesses joined at the hip with government) want the treatment to be Remdesvir, because Remdesvir is a highly profitable and absurdly expensive state enforced monopoly, and are obstructing anything that will not result in them getting cushy jobs on the revolving door between the state and the nominally private quasi state.

                  The evidence that Remdesvir is effective is slight, and we have no real knowledge of its safety, while chloroquine is clearly overwhelmingly safe and effective, with all harmful side effects appearing only after many years of heavy use.

                  When medical authorities talk about the risks of chloroquine, they are spreading malicious lies with the aim of making a few bucks out of killing people. The risks and side effect that they use to intimidate people only appear after years and usually decades of heavy use, while the recommended treatment for the China flu is ten days. The list of contraindications are not contraindications for using for ten days, and if you want to use it for a few months while visiting a malarial area, no one ever bothers checking for those contraindications. It seems that the contraindications only matter if you are in danger of dying from China flu.

                  The people in the CDC are warming their seats in expectation of a very well paid revolving door job in big pharma.

                  Which is why no peer reviewed study is ever going to find hydroxychloroquine safe and effective for China flu.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Part of the resistance to Cloraquine is no doubt that some people are hoping for a payoff from Gilead but as always capitalists are not the main driving force…

                  Its more the Cathedral wants to keep the hysteria going in order to destroy Trump’s economy. Trump needs to get someone who can Epstein people… he can’t fire Fauci now but he desperately needs Fauci to go away and it would be very nice if Fauci were to shoot himself twice in the back of the head.

                  I also wish we had very specific details on exactly why Italy’s numbers are not on the up and up, the panicmongers always scream MUH ITALY but its clear there is something other than purely the virus going on with muh Italy.

                • pdimov says:

                  >The risks and side effect that they use to intimidate people only appear after years and usually decades of heavy use, while the recommended treatment for the China flu is ten days.

                  That’s not entirely apples to apples, because sustained use is 500mg per week, whereas the corona treatment is 500-1000mg per day.

                  Remdesivir is very likely effective; there’s about as much data about it working as there’s for chloroquine. But it’s obviously more expensive and less available.

                • pdimov says:

                  >Its more the Cathedral wants to keep the hysteria going in order to destroy Trump’s economy.

                  The Cathedral was, until yesterday, countering the supposedly existent “public hysteria” in the exact same way they counter the supposedly existent “Islamophobia”. In both cases, the phenomenon they warn about is only spoken of, but when you look around you, it doesn’t exist. (Well, people bought toilet paper, so there’s that.)

                  The Cathedral and Trump were equally clueless (and planless) about the danger; and in fact, Trump pivoted first, and it took a bit of time for the Cathedral to switch gears.

                  I suspect the reason both Trump and the Cathedral suddenly took corona seriously was the same in both cases: they, or someone close to them, caught it.

                  Sometimes one can’t help but wonder whether Tucker Carlson isn’t the only sane person in the whole America.

                  https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/tucker-carlson-on-how-he-brought-coronavirus-message-to-mar-a-lago

                  “So a lot of Trump voters believe that all news about Trump is designed to hurt Trump. And they’re absolutely right about that. It’s been monomaniacal, the coverage of Trump. So when the moment came, when there was something that ultimately really didn’t have anything to do with Trump, which is the emergence of a weird new virus from Eastern China, they were trained to believe that all coverage was designed to hurt Trump. Because that’s been true. So it was very hard to convince a lot of those news consumers that this was fundamentally not a political story.”

                  Just elect him already.

                • Pooch says:

                  The very high death rate in Italy seems to be disproportionately in a few towns and cities in the region of Lombardia. The outbreak started in hospitals there as far as I can tell. So Maybe its so high because the hospitals in those towns were overrun from the onset but I really don’t know.

                • Pooch says:

                  Italy just released their numbers, 793 dead today in Italy. They will be at 1000 per day soon.

                • jim says:

                  South Korea controlled the China flu. America has the number of cases growing by a factor of ten every ten days, Italy by a factor of ten every fourteen days. Looks like it simply hit Italy sooner, due to Chinese guest workers.

                  If you get hit ten days earlier, you will have ten times as many people sick and dying.

                  To bring it under control, do what South Korea and Hong Kong did. It is hard, but it is not that hard. All China’s recent cases are people coming in from overseas.

                • Pooch says:

                  I also wish we had very specific details on exactly why Italy’s numbers are not on the up and up, the panicmongers always scream MUH ITALY but its clear there is something other than purely the virus going on with muh Italy.

                  For specifics of what’s going on in Italy:

                  https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2020/03/20/news/coronavirus_le_ultime_notizie_in_italia-251757457/?ref=RHPPTP-BL-I251800357-C12-P1-S1.8-T2

                  I find it hard to believe that the numbers are fudged.

                • Pooch says:

                  For comparison, the highest single day death count in China was 150.

                • Not Tom says:

                  Not Tom what I’m rather pissed that you don’t see that this whole Corona crisis is Mueller 2.0.

                  I see no evidence of that. Not one shred. And it’s going to take a lot more than your gut feeling to convince me.

                  As for financial bets I anticipated a correct on Corona virus so I sold some stock… but then I bought some back early because I thought Trump would display his usual strength and not give into the people who want to shut down the great economy he built and I’m considerably disappointed that Trump blinked for once.

                  I’ve had to shut down, destroy, disassemble or otherwise dispose of things that I’ve built and put considerable effort into, for reasons other than peer pressure. This shutdown could have been much shorter, and much less painful, had Trump acted more swiftly in the beginning. He acted more swiftly than many executives (e.g. Italy, Canada, most of Europe) but far more slowly than the Asian countries. Had you been listening to me and to others on this blog, you would have known that was the case and placed bets accordingly. I, like Jim, am betting on the recovery to be swift, once the recovery begins, but have been well-hedged since about 3 weeks ago because I saw that containment measures were too few and too ineffective.

                  I understand Trump was in a lose lose with all the alarmists talk

                  No, he was in a lose-lose with a [relatively] deadly infectious virus spreading in his country including a number of untraceable cases.

                  but the reason he was in a lose lose is because of people like you who believe that CNN and the rest of the Cathedral media and the government bureaucracy have suddenly become honest or ceased their usual tricks

                  As pdimov has correctly noted, all of these parties were firmly against strong and swift government action. The WHO recommended continued open borders because racism is worse than death. The quintessential example of Cathedral methodology is the UK’s “let’s do absolutely nothing, because something something herd immunity!” approach.

                  and that shattered the normal unity of our side that Trump can rely on

                  People who won’t listen to reason are the ones shattering unity.

                  You think you are being rational and enlightened by believing the experts on the virus

                  Which experts? There are many experts promoting many viewpoints. I believe most of the Chinese experts and the Chinese data, whom people on “our side” are irrationally saying must be lying/false for insane reasons. I believe Greg Cochran, who knows way, way more about this stuff than any of us and correctly identified many flaws in my original, month-old ignorant assumptions (viruses do not always mutate into less deadly forms, eliminating the virus entirely is barely more expensive than flattening the curve, etc.). And yes, I also believe the experts who say they’ve tested Chloroquine which appears to be effective – which, by the way, was also reported in the mainstream media – as well as the experts who say we should ramp up production because at the moment there isn’t actually enough to go around.

                  Which “experts” do you think I am believing, whom I shouldn’t be believing? Have you actually read anything in the New York Times or other Cathedral organs about this? They’re all in direct opposition to any kind of lockdown. A few weeks ago they were insisting that no lockdown could possibly be needed, that lockdowns were morally wrong, that it was perfectly okay to evacuate potentially-infected people from China and from cruise ships. And now, after being caught with their pants down, they are saying okay, maybe the lockdowns were a little helpful, but surely there is no need to continue them any longer, the fears are all overblown, the UK is right, it’s literally a fiasco, etc.

                  You’re the one who’s been parroting the Cathedral line at every juncture – not me. We must save “the economy” at all costs! – how does that not sound exactly like the voice of Conservatism Inc.?

                  Its not that the virus is a hoax, its just the virus is not nearly as contangious as the hype suggests. The models of expotential virus spread is just computer model bullshit

                  Once again, asserted without evidence. China’s data showed an R0 between 3-4 and this has been replicated in every other country with high-quality testing and reasonable controls. With no controls at all, you get Italy. In the United States, cases quadrupled 2 weeks ago; last week, they increased by a factor of 10.

                  Nobody is talking about computer models; we are talking about actual cases. Maybe there are methodological problems – lack of testing/tracing, etc. Nevertheless, R0 has to be pretty damn high if we got from under 10 to over 10,000 confirmed cases in a month.

                  …likely to weaken considerably soon in the same manner as the original SARs outbreak

                  You don’t know this. You’re just asserting it. And you don’t specify if this is with or without controls.

                  ([the original SARs] was actually both more contangious and deadlier than this)

                  Nuts. And asserting something this nuts undermines any thin reed of credibility that might have been present in the preceding arguments.

                • pdimov says:

                  Not nuts, actually. SARS 1.0 was indeed deadlier and about as contagious. What helped to contain it was (a) that asymptomatic carriers (i.e. those without 38C visible on thermal cameras) didn’t spread it and (b) probably luck.

                • Steve Johnson says:

                  jim:

                  The Cathedral, due to influence of big Pharma (this is one of the rare occasions when you can legitimately blame capitalists, though not capitalism, because the evildoers are quasi statal, businesses joined at the hip with government) want the treatment to be Remdesvir, because Remdesvir is a highly profitable and absurdly expensive state enforced monopoly, and are obstructing anything that will not result in them getting cushy jobs on the revolving door between the state and the nominally private quasi state.

                  It’s Cathedral doctrine that medical care always has to be massively expensive and potentially financially ruinous – unless you’re covered by insurance.

                  It’s simultaneously another layer of control to make getting unpersoned from corporate employment that much more risky and many times more so for a man with a wife and children and a way to ensure that there is a lot of slush and slack in the system for them to reward their clients / vote bank.

                  Not Tom:

                  Nobody is talking about computer models; we are talking about actual cases. Maybe there are methodological problems – lack of testing/tracing, etc. Nevertheless, R0 has to be pretty damn high if we got from under 10 to over 10,000 confirmed cases in a month.

                  Greg Cochran made an excellent point that the “just a flu” morons like Contaminator are missing totally – this is a novel virus. A novel virus that has an R0 of even just >1 (this has one of 3-6, depending) – will quickly spread to near everyone due to the fact that being novel means there’s no one with immunity from a past infection. If this thing is 5% lethal at 70% infection you’re looking at 11+ million dead Americans. Even at .5% for the younger age cohorts that’s 1 in 200 dead. Those numbers could get worse as hospitals lose the ability to treat serious cases. The implied part of their reasoning is that “it’ll level off” – why would it? Courtesy? Because people can’t focus on it for that long and when you stop paying attention to something it disappears?

                • Not Tom says:

                  SARS 1.0 was indeed deadlier and about as contagious.

                  SARS 1 had a higher CFR; however, it is unclear to me how much of that higher CFR is because of the virus itself vs. the more limited treatment options available at the time due to its novelty. While we are calling SARS 2 “novel”, it isn’t really all that novel given its extensive similarity to SARS 1; we, or rather China, learned a lot about how to deal with it. However, let’s concede that it was deadlier.

                  As far as contagion, though: sure, Wikipedia may report it as having R0 between 2-5, but when you compare the extremely drastic containment measures China took with SARS 2 vs. SARS 1 along with the relative spread, it doesn’t hold up as a credible claim that SARS 1 was more infectious.

                • Not Tom says:

                  Because people can’t focus on it for that long and when you stop paying attention to something it disappears?

                  As far as I can tell, this is precisely the argument – unstated, of course.

                  The model that Greg tore apart assumed spreading to 1% of the population and stopping there. I have no idea where Ioannidis got that number from. No one does, and he doesn’t bother to explain or justify it. People are just making numbers up to justify assumptions based on wishful thinking.

                  The real ceiling on quarantine measures appears to be “however long someone who’s done no prep whatsoever can hold out without running out of supplies or getting cabin fever”. That duration, and absolutely no longer, is exactly how long the virus will take to run its course, and coincidentally exactly the amount of short-term damage the economy can sustain. Pretty convenient, eh?

                • The Cominator says:

                  The Cathedral media was calm and complacent about the virus until the order was given for them to do a sudden about face. That doesn’t mean that the plan to cause mass hysteria wasn’t present before they did it it just means that the order hadn’t been handed down yet.

                  If this virus were that infectious it would have considerably higher worldwide numbers its existed since November supposedly but only 300,000 cases, it doesn’t seem very infectious outside of specific cool and damp weather conditions (unless you get on an airplane or are sharing a buffet on a cruise ship) AT ALL. 300000 is a pissant number compared to seasonal flu. How can it possibly be more infectious than the flu when it has such a pitiful number. Even if the amount of undetected asymptomatic cases were 10x the detected number it stiill wouldn’t approach the flu’s numbers. Hence why I say all the doom and gloom models are just global warming all over again, they are wildly at variance with observed reality.

                  You also seem deathly scared that this virus is going to personally kill either you or someone close… I don’t like respiratory viruses myself but in the off chance I get it there is an effective antiviral now so I’m not worried. If you have a fever demand a cloraquine script early…

                • The Cominator says:

                  “Greg Cochran made an excellent point that the “just a flu” morons like Contaminator are missing totally – this is a novel virus. A novel virus that has an R0 of even just >1 (this has one of 3-6, depending) – will quickly spread to near everyone due to the fact that being novel means there’s no one with immunity from a past infection.”

                  Oh no its not the flu… the flu would have much greater numbers by now.

                  This is LESS CONTANGIOUS than the flu given that its very hard to transmit it airborne. What it does have is the ability to last for a long time on surfaces in specific weather conditions and as such it should be mostly gone in the Northern hemisphere by Summer (though perhaps you’ll get outbreaks in Chile and Argentina).

                  Given that its an RNA virus by the time it gets around to transmitting to everyone it’ll also likely be much much weaker than the current version.

                  Also people who have had previous incarnations of Coronaviruses might possibly have more resistance to it as well. Supposedly people with O blood types are resistant to it so it probably does not infect everyone equally.

                  If I turn out to be right will you apologize for calling me a moron?

                • jim says:

                  At present it is growing by a factor of ten every ten days. And, absent firm and effective measures like those applied in China, Hong Kong, and South Korea, will go on growing till most people have gotten sick, and then recovered or died.

                  Which, since it is a fair bit nastier than regular flue, is the Zombie Apocalypse scenario.

                  I am financially betting on the Zombie Apocalypse scenario not happening, but have prepped for Zombie Apocalypse.

                  To prevent Zombie apocalypse, need massive testing and everyone who shows positive gets isolation and treatment.

                  What stopped the disease in South Korea was drive through testing – getting tested was as easy as buying takeout from McDonalds.

                  To halt the disease, we need drive through testing and easy availability of hydroxychloroquine. One drive through to get tested, a second drive through to pick up ten days of hydroxychloroquine and Zithro.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Re Italy numbers.

                  https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/03/study-99-of-patients-killed-by-coronavirus-in-italy-had-existing-illnesses/?fbclid=IwAR3mK7-Q7rSZiJd9QhTWdfVt-8NtK-uvS8VELGEnJFI_8aJCGtecqNqTXoQ

                  Sounds like what happened is the Italians didn’t understand the virus during the initial outbreak and they didn’t isolate those in the hospital with the virus well enough and likely got massive outbreaks within the hospitals and in their ICUs…

                  So a bunch of people who were very sick in the hospitals with other things THEN got infected in the hospitals.

                • pdimov says:

                  >If this thing is 5% lethal at 70% infection

                  The interesting thing (and pertaining to those who parrot “herd immunity”) is that on Diamond Princess, under perfect infection conditions, only 19% of the passengers caught it.

                  So it’s quite possible that 80% of the population _is already immune_.

                  If that’s true, we won’t be seeing a 70% infection rate. Nevertheless, the 20% susceptible are still enough to overwhelm the hospitals. So the “herd immunity” theory doesn’t hold water.

                • jim says:

                  Diamond Princess went into Zombie Apocalypse style lockdown. It is not a test for the “let it burn” theory.

                  It is 20% infection rate curtailed by Zombie Apocalypse.

                  Repeating. Stopping the spread requires drive by testing.

                  Making it not a problem requires drive by testing, followed by drive by pickups of a ten day prescription of hydroxychloroquine and Zithro.

                  The alternative to drive by testing is Zombie Apocalypse.

                • Encelad says:

                  Italy lost a precious week after the first cases by underestimating the threat and dismissing calls for a harsher approach as fear mongering. During this week, leftist activists organized flash mobs showing themselves with books instead of facemasks covering their mouths, because “the real virus is ignorance” and “racism kills more than diseases”. The leader of the Democratic party even went personally to have dinner on a Chinese restaurant to “counter xenophobia”. He is right now infected by Covid-19.

                  https://www.politico.eu/article/head-of-italy-democratic-party-nicola-zingaretti-tests-positive-for-coronavirus/

                • The Cominator says:

                  https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/02/19/807418497/coronavirus-update-diamond-princess-passengers-leave-ship-as-expert-slams-quaran

                  Not that I entirely trust NPR but this article claims that the zombie apocalypse style lockdown was not exactly a zombie apocalypse style lockdown.

                  Even if it was if this thing is as contangious as its supposed to be the lockdown probably would have come too late. I continue to be skeptical of how contagious this thing is. It also seems to only ideally thrive in very narrow weather conditions.

                  https://twitter.com/LouisianaTimes/status/1241421163009630208

                • The Cominator says:

                  On a lighter note this is what I think of the virus…

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwvZql6RToE

                • pdimov says:

                  >Making it not a problem

                  Don’t get me wrong; it’s still very much a problem at 20%. Wuhan had 3% confirmed; assume generously 80% untested, this still gets us at 15%, and it was far, far from not being a problem at those 15%.

                • jim says:

                  At the coronavirus press conference Trump hauled out all the people to present a united front.

                  Two big things: They are working on drive by tests, which will be available “very soon”. Drive by testing is what stopped the Korean epidemic. Worked in Korea, will likely work here.

                  They are shipping “ten thousand” of something, which from context I assume to be packets of hydroxychloroquine and zithro to New York, the major center of the outbreak in the US.

                  Ten thousand is not in fact a lot. But it should have an impact. They have removed any regulatory obstacles to treating patients with hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, which is a big deal and will have an impact.

                  They are launching a double blind study of the hydroxychloroquine treatment, which I expect to be slow walked and nitpicked to death. The those attempting to perform the study will encounter a mammoth bureaucracy which will demand a pallet load of documentation about informed consent and privacy, and then a committee will find something wrong with item six hundred and seven on form AP744-0303 – the actual objection being that it might reveal that a long used generic is effective. Somehow, no study that finds generics or over the counter nutritional supplements are effective ever passes peer review. Funny thing that.

                  The mainstream media did its usual thing – they demanded among other things, that the epidemic be used as yet another excuse for socialism, which Trump firmly pushed back on.

                • Not Tom says:

                  The Cathedral media was calm and complacent about the virus until the order was given for them to do a sudden about face. That doesn’t mean that the plan to cause mass hysteria wasn’t present before they did it it just means that the order hadn’t been handed down yet.

                  You wouldn’t tolerate this kind of sloppy goalpost-moving from anyone else; there’s no reason we should listen to yours.

                  If this virus were that infectious it would have considerably higher worldwide numbers

                  It’s doubling in the US every 2-3 days and did the same in China before they implemented strict controls. Even in light of that, it likely does have considerably higher worldwide numbers, because most countries are still only testing people who report symptoms. Given that 80% of cases have only mild symptoms, and as much as 50% are completely asymptomatic, that’s a lot of unreported cases. That also explains how untraceable cases mysteriously popped up out of nowhere all across the country.

                  Up to 30-day incubation, 50% carrier rate, sub-20% self-report rate. Think about those numbers before you make pronouncements about the spread. The reported spread indicates an R0 of 3-6, depending on controls, which is much higher than any seasonal flu; the actual spread is probably higher still.

                  Hence why I say all the doom and gloom models are just global warming all over again, they are wildly at variance with observed reality.

                  So when presented with actual data, you ignore the data, repeat your original points, and add several paragraphs more emotional arguments. And then you have the gall to talk about “observed reality”. What reality? Whose observations?

                  You also seem deathly scared that this virus is going to personally kill either you or someone close…

                  No psychoanalyzing.

                  If I turn out to be right will you apologize for calling me a moron?

                  Right about what? You haven’t even made any coherent predictions other than “it kills less than the flu”, for which you always blur the line between with controls and without controls. It’s impossible to test your theory because Trump is not stupid enough to lift controls this early, especially when emergency powers are giving him new political opportunities.

                  But sure: if all controls, both federal and state, are lifted within the next week, and we still don’t have mass testing, and the rate of doubling slows from about 2-3 days to under 1 week on its own, then yes, I’ll apologize.

                  You know, I was thinking that you picked one hell of a stupid hill to die on, but I just realized that you pick every hill. I thought you were always just being deliberately extreme with the “kill all commies” schtick, and having to pipe up every single GD time that Jim mentions bastards, but it turns out you’re this way on every topic.

                  Am I wrong? Can anyone remember a time when Cominator actually allowed himself to be persuaded on any topic of more than trivial significance? Or is it just all autistic screeching, all the time?

                • jim says:

                  Currently coronavirus is expanding by a factor of ten every ten days, indicating an insanely high infectiousness.

                  It is evolving to lesser lethality, but but the disease at the optimum level of severity for spreading amongst young people might be lethal for older people.

                  The disease has significant impact on lung function for young people, and we don’t know if there are lasting effects even in young people.

                  The natural outcome is that it infects most people, but half of them are asymptomatic (which is optimal for the virus, since since it can spread without symptoms) and about three percent die. Medical collapse as in Italy may be leading to really high death rates, that go unrecorded as corona virus deaths, because the victim dies at home, and they do not test corpses. There is plausible evidence that Italy’s death rate is several times the official death rate.

                  And Italy’s official death rate is bad.

                  That is not the end of the world, but it is a lot of people. Italy’s real death rate may well be around ten or twelve percent of corona virus cases. Unfortunately the collapse of the hospital system also collapses the system for recording deaths.

                • Not Tom says:

                  They are launching a double blind study of the hydroxychloroquine treatment, which I expect to be slow walked and nitpicked to death

                  Trump may not even have to order deregulation, because it looks like significant parts of the medical community are already ignoring the regulations and starting to prescribe chloroquine, zithro and tylenol.

                  Will Corona be the paradigm shift to bust up the medical bureaucracy once and for all? Probably not, but we can dream.

                • The Cominator says:

                  You wouldn’t tolerate this kind of sloppy goalpost-moving from anyone else; there’s no reason we should listen to yours.

                  I’m not goalpost moving. We differ on our views of the degree of coordination and command in control exists in the media. My view is that the entire media is either controlled by one person or a committee somewhere. You as I recall believe in “school of fish” coordination. Jim is somewhere between our views but as I recall leans closer to mine on this question (he can correct me if I’m wrong).

                  It’s doubling in the US every 2-3 days and did the same in China before they implemented strict controls. Even in light of that, it likely does have considerably higher worldwide numbers, because most countries are still only testing people who report symptoms. Given that 80% of cases have only mild symptoms, and as much as 50% are completely asymptomatic, that’s a lot of unreported cases. That also explains how untraceable cases mysteriously popped up out of nowhere all across the country.

                  Testing rates are now expanding faster than the virus. I agree there are asymptomatic cases but even if they outnumber detected cases by a factor of 10 there would only be about 300,000 cases in the US now. Furthermore the death rate then (since that number is perfectly well known at 414) in such a case would be LESS THAN the seasonal flu.

                  So when presented with actual data, you ignore the data, repeat your original points, and add several paragraphs more emotional arguments. And then you have the gall to talk about “observed reality”. What reality? Whose observations?

                  I repeat my original points because you don’t actually refute them, and I ignore the so called “data” when like with global warming it is wildly at variance with observed reality.

                  No psychoanalyzing.

                  Okay but you aren’t being nice either.

                  Right about what? You haven’t even made any coherent predictions other than “it kills less than the flu”, for which you always blur the line between with controls and without controls.

                  It would kill more people without controls but it would still kill less than the seasaonal flu is my prediction based among other things the fact that we only really know the number of people who have died but not the total number of cases. I don’t think the difference is worth shutting down the economy and if we are in a depression in November I hope to God the Democrats stick with Biden because nobody is going to care about how many people were saved from the virus if the economy sucks. Trump ran on a promise that among other things the economy under him would get better and that nothing would divert him from that. There are a lot of people on the right who don’t think this economic shutdown is worth it and they may stay home if things don’t recover by the election… things will recover if the shutdown ends soon but a long shutdown risks en masse small business failures and potential bank trouble. Trump may not survive if that happens. He needs to force an end to the lockdown measures at the latest by the middle of March.

                  My spergish tendencies

                  I admit to them. If you don’t want me to repeat my points you should actually refute them… you spout numbers based on epidemological models I don’t trust anymore than global warming models and get frustrated when I say sorry I just don’t believe them because we’d already be in the zombie apocalypse if those numbers were true. As I said global warming all over again.

                • jim says:

                  The capability of the media to change their story uniformly and abruptly indicates something closer to the Communist Party of the United Soviet Socialist Republics than a school of fish.

                  Also, the new story often has a deep internal coherence and numerous details taken care of, which is difficult for a school of fish to accomplish. Classic example being changing Darwin’s accomplishment from natural selection to the tree of life. (Which conjecture long predates Darwin, and was the motivation for Darwin’s theory. A school of fish could coordinate on playing down natural selection, but could not coordinate on the academic details of revising history to be consistent with playing it down by specifically and flatly denying that specific earlier thinkers had argued for the tree of life.)

                  Similarly, when there was outrage at Trump talking about the “China virus”, the Spanish flu abruptly got a new name. A school of fish could be outraged at “China virus” but it could not coordinate on writing the Spanish flu out of history. That requires central coordination. They might all forget that the Spanish flu had ever happened, but they would not suddenly agree that it had a new name, and had always been known by a name that in reality suddenly came into existence immediately after Trump used the phrase “China Virus”

                  It looks like the China Flu death rate among old people, absent ICU, is fairly high, with competent ICU (which is rare – ICU is apt to kill you) is very low.

                  With good medical care (which is rare), the death rate is about half a percent of those infected, which, absent control, is likely to add up to a quarter of a percent of the population. With typical medical care (ICU is dangerous) about two or three percent. With collapse of the medical system, as in Italy, probably around ten percent. When the dust settles, we are likely to see a significant decrease in the Italian population, of the order of ten percent or so. Because of chaos, because the great majority of the Italian dead were not in hospital and were not receiving medical care, the Italian death rate is three or four times higher than reported and is still rising very rapidly, likely to level off at about five percent of the population dead.

                • The Cominator says:

                  Correction to the long post, Trump needs to force an end to the shutdown measures by the middle of APRIL at the very latest. Otherwise I think we go into a depression he’ll lose the election and the left will kill far more people than this virus ever possibly could have…

                • jim says:

                  Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, and Hong Kong, show that it is feasible to control the virus without shutting down the economy – but you have to control the virus first, then you can selective reverse the most destructive shutdown measures. Initially you do have to shutdown the economy, as the Chinese did. Then, with the virus under control, you can re-open.

                  The most important measure is drive by testing without prior appointment and “voluntary” isolation of people who test positive, firmly backed by coercion if you fail to volunteer. Due to a shortage of tests, in the US drive by testing is only available by appointment only, and only in the most seriously infected areas.

                  Also, involuntary isolation discourages young people with mild cases from being tested. To incentivize people to show up at the drive bys, we have to have treatment routinely and automatically given to everyone who tests positive, even if asymptomatic.

                  Drive by testing without appointment, and routine availability of effective treatment for anyone who tests positive, will bring this epidemic to a sudden halt, allowing America to be re-opened for business.

                • The Cominator says:

                  At a certain point he needs to bring the economy back urban boomer causalties be damned and he doesn’t have long. Putting infinite value on life is effeminate sentimentalism..

                • jim says:

                  If Trump attempts to bring the economy back without Chinese and South Korean style measures in place to control the epidemic, we are likely to get a Zombie Apocalypse, as is starting to happen right now in Italy, in which case the election probably will not be held and the economy will collapse.

                  I have prepped for Zombie Apocalypse, but I expect South Korea.

                  Italy has only 0.1% of the population officially infected, and things are already falling apart. Expect total chaos if it burns through far enough to create widespread herd immunity. Probably it is actually closer to 1% of the population, as chaos is making it hard to monitor the progress of the disease, but burn through will be fifty times as much chaos.

                • The Cominator says:

                  I’m very pessimistic as to whether we can be as effective as homogeneous high trust Asian societies with more competent permanent governments and more disciplined populations… Between feminism and diversity I just don’t think it can be done.

                  We can get drive through testing, we can get outdoor cloraquine dispensiries and outdoor field hospitals should it come to that but Americans will not adhere to the social distancing guildelines for long even if they are stay inside and that anyone caught outside who isn’t wearing a pass will be shot on sight.

                  BUT the good news (leaving out my optimistic belief that this is less infectious than most think and my belief that it will evolve much weaker) I don’t think our medical situation will EVER get as bad as Italy.

                  Trump is very aware that hospital beds are a very artificial constraint and an easily solvable problem under emergency powers… and perhaps the one silver lining of this crisis is he can reorganize our whole corrupt medical system to some degree on a permanent basis.

                • The Cominator says:

                  https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1241935285916782593

                  I read this as that Trump has accepted the necessity of protecting the economy to the extent possible even at the expense of accepting some causalties from this.

                  We’ll see how many causalties I do not think it will be that many.

                • Pooch says:

                  Even if Trump wanted to open everything back up isn’t it ultimately up to the Governors of each individual state?

                • The Cominator says:

                  After this week we will see if i am right about this thing, Trump sided pretty strongly with me and the skeptics in this latest press conference and scumbag commie Hillary supporter Fauci is gone.

                • Pooch says:

                  Yep I noticed that too. As Trump talks of opening things back up, it seems the Cathedral is going to predictably push the narrative that the situation is getting more dire.

                • RedBible says:

                  If Trump declares (by executive order) that the State of Emergency is over, that would legally force all the state governors to stop having emergency powers without violating federal order. Not sure if it would turn out well for Trump (and ultimately all of us) if he did that, but if he did, I know I’ll be pulling out the popcorn for the show that would ensue.

                • jim says:

                  On current trends, about two thousand people are going to die in New York over the next two weeks.

                  If they don’t, it will be because the meds Trump ordered sent to New York are working, in which case he should do a victory dance and declare the State of Emergency over.

                  If, on the other hand, two thousand die, it would be politically unwise, though economically sound, to declare the emergency over.

                • Pooch says:

                  Fauci gone again from this Trump townhall. So can we can conclude Fauci was tasked by the deep state to bring down Trump with virus fear mongering? Signs are pointing that way.

                • Omar is just a Trump card now. says:

                  US currently has Korea’s death rate *without* using hydroxychloroquine or drive-through testing.

                  NYC is probably an anomaly due to dense-packed populations like Hasidic Jews, and a dysfunctional governance model built on milking the state and federal cash cow that doesn’t work in a pandemic.

              • Cloudswrest says:

                Check out the nearly completely complimentary graphic in this chloroquine related article.

                https://docs.google.com/document/d/12YDytbAsZaruGlhFO7eTTgxSH_BuxJtwFmbhqpkPPSk/mobilebasic

  26. Dave says:

    Just before our ships deploy to China, half their crew-members will accidentally get pregnant, leaving them woefully under-manned. Most of those pregnancies will be aborted as soon as the fleet is safely over the horizon.

    I’ll be happy to let the feminists, diversities, and LGBTs fight this war without me. As they remind us every five minutes, it’s their country now.

    • Atavistic Morality says:

      I sincerely hope that the ship wouldn’t even be able to deploy because white Christian men refuse to help. I understand the average white American playing along for a meal ticket for now, flying under the radar to have a peaceful and comfortable life, but war is war…

      Whoever would cooperate for this shit is evil and deserves annihilation.

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